News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -

[Bender123]

I'm not Bender123, but I did some math between Gondolas and buses a few pages back in this thread:



I can do a thought experiment on the monorail too if you like, but I thought it was irrelevant as it does not run to the hotels that Skyliner does.

The Skyliner isn't running to half of the resorts in that example...
EPCOT Resorts Serviced:
Boardwalk: 378
Boardwalk Villas: 532
Beach Club:583
Beach Club Villas: 282
Yacht club: 630
Swan: 758
Dolphin: 1509
Total: 4,672 @ 3 people per room = 14,016

If they want to take the skyliner...I guess, but they are just going to be going from Studios to Epcot, just to get off and walk back again...I guess that's fine for Beach Club/Yacht Club, but otherwise those people will just need to get on a boat or walk.

Im sure there are people that will do that, but I doubt it will be that large.

 

[truecoat]

This "proven technology" (ventilation) has determined what is comfortable to everyone?
Look, I know the gondolas are not getting A/C or fans - that's a fact.
Disney has determined that these device are not cost effective for the application.
So, not needed in their budget.
As far as not needed by individual people well... That's up to the individual.
Until just three years ago, I commuted on the Staten Island Ferry for 30 years.
There is non A/C and there are no fans on the boat.
The boats are well ventilated as they chug across NY Harbor on a hot steamy, summer day.
I know many people who were quite comfortable with that open air breeze.
I also know many people - myself included - who found it to be one of the most uncomfortable means of travel imaginable in the western world.
Comfort is relative.

You're also talking about a 25 min ride not 5-10 minutes.

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

Monothingie, if you are looking for numbers to discuss efficiency, based upon the ones posted by Disney, the buses do not even come close.

It is expected that bus transportation to the parks and resorts involved in this new transportation system will decrease or go away altogether. Here are some expected capacity numbers.

• 3 busloads = roughly 180 people
• The Gondola system will take that in about 5 minutes
• A full bus is about 60-70 people
• Capacity is rumored to be roughly 4000-5000 people per hour each way
• That's the equivalent of 40 buses worth to Epcot each hour, and 40 buses worth to DHS

 

[flynnibus]

The busses are flexible, but batched. Its an extremely inefficient point to point system until you scale up to the point of near insanity. Its a pretty well known and studied math problem that exists in transport and all the way down to a restaurant and manufacturing. Basically, the gondola is an assembly line of transport. The monorail and bus are, essentially "all in". You get the same efficiency with 8 riders as you do with 8000. You only average 80 or so people every 10 minutes per bus route.

The monorail is more efficient than the bus, but its still batched at intervals.

Uh.. what?

The first problem is you keep arguing efficiencies without stating efficiencies of WHAT.

Buses have lower per person efficiencies compared to a heavy haul, higher capacity vehicle...(in terms of customers per cycle) but offset that with the ability to scale horizontally and the much greater advantage of scaling up AND down.

These discussions will always go in circles until you are both discussing the same thing.

Are you optimizing equipment costs, labor, travel time, wait time, etc.

Remember... there are solid reasons why all transportation systems are layered systems of different types.. almost always ending up with bus on the edge.

Buses reign supreme for flexible demand with route diversity.

 

[Goofyernmost]

This "proven technology" (ventilation) has determined what is comfortable to everyone?
Look, I know the gondolas are not getting A/C or fans - that's a fact.
Disney has determined that these device are not cost effective for the application.
So, not needed in their budget.
As far as not needed by individual people well... That's up to the individual.
Until just three years ago, I commuted on the Staten Island Ferry for 30 years.
There is non A/C and there are no fans on the boat.
The boats are well ventilated as they chug across NY Harbor on a hot steamy, summer day.
I know many people who were quite comfortable with that open air breeze.
I also know many people - myself included - who found it to be one of the most uncomfortable means of travel imaginable in the western world.
Comfort is relative.

Then those people that are affected should choose a different resort to stay in. They aren't, to my knowledge, going to force people to ride them at gun point, but, if you decide to book a stay in one of the gondola resorts, then you have to expect that you will need to use the gondola. I can't climb a mountain because of a leg injury, so, I don't attempt to climb a mountain. Why can't people protect themselves from things that would be bad for them instead of thinking that everyone else has to reach for their individual desires. So moral of the story is... don't think you will enjoy them, don't ride them or set yourself up to a situation where you have too.

 

[danlb_2000]

Uh.. what?

The first problem is you keep arguing efficiencies without stating efficiencies of WHAT.

Buses have lower per person efficiencies compared to a heavy haul, higher capacity vehicle...(in terms of customers per cycle) but offset that with the ability to scale horizontally and the much greater advantage of scaling up AND down.

These discussions will always go in circles until you are both discussing the same thing.

Are you optimizing equipment costs, labor, travel time, wait time, etc.

Remember... there are solid reasons why all transportation systems are layered systems of different types.. almost always ending up with bus on the edge.

Buses reign supreme for flexible demand with route diversity.

… and the bus system can operate in pretty much any weather conditions and the system has no single point of failure.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Buses reign supreme for flexible demand with route diversity.

Which is why they’re great for something like rD race weekends — massive demand spikes along routes and at times that are atypical for WDW.

I think you make excellent points, and I agree. Within a range of demand, under “normal” circumstances, other modes (gondola, monorail) are more efficient in most of the other ways you mention in your post, though.

The other modes wouldn’t entirely replace buses — you need them for flex (demand, outages, repairs, etc.) — but for common routes traveled where they run, they’re more efficient in many ways.

 

[flynnibus]

Which is why they’re great for something like rD race weekends — massive demand spikes along routes and at times that are atypical for WDW.

I think you make excellent points, and I agree. Within a range of demand, under “normal” circumstances, other modes (gondola, monorail) are more efficient in most of the other ways you mention in your post, though.

The other modes wouldn’t entirely replace buses — you need them for flex (demand, outages, repairs, etc.) — but for common routes traveled where they run, they’re more efficient in many ways.

The simplest way to look at it is.. the same way the big boys do it. Heavy haul is used on fixed, consistent, high demand legs (think.. backbone) and you move to lighter, smaller, more dynamic capacity systems as you move into the mesh of locations that require variation in demand or you can't justify the disruption of the heavy haul service (integration into existing spaces, etc).

You use different types of transport because the demands and constraints differ. "more efficient" is just jibjab BS unless you are specifying what you are trying to optimize and are willing to trade for it.

The beauty of something like the gondola system is that the operating costs are essentially flat - regardless of capacity/demand load. So while they don't 'scale down' as a bus may - there is no need to. They have an operating ceiling that is not as high as heavy haul, but they offset that with solid throughput/hr and minimizing guest waits. They are also very cheap operationally compared to maintaining a fleet of buses. The negative is they are 'single tracked' in that they can't offer alternate routes or propulsion when there is work that needed... unlike a bus that can simply be taken out of rotation. That will force Disney to be far more diligent, and far more PROMPT in their maintenance schedules.

Buses offer economies of scale that other solutions don't.. since their use is so common and widespread. They are also incredibly 'robust' in that you can use them almost anywhere, anytime. They will always be there to bail out the other guys.

 

[G00fyDad]

For ultimate personal comfort, there is always the option of using your own or a rented car for transport.

The ONLY way we get around WDW whenever possible.

 

[cindy_k]

I believe it was Arthur, King of the Britons
View attachment 326764

King of the who?

 

[MisterPenguin]

King of the who?

I didn't vote for 'im.

 

[larryz]

I didn't vote for 'im.

Well, then, how can you tell he's the King?

 

[DisneyCane]

Do ovens normally move along at 20mph with windows open and a ventilation fan?
There are five window vents on each gondala and potentially a floor level vent as well.

^This. Geez people. If you don't melt or spontaneously combust waking down main Street you aren't going to in the gondola either. It isn't like leaving a kid in a car with the windows closed. The ventilation will make it so the interior temperature is similar to the exterior temperature. If you can survive outside you will be fine inside.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

The simplest way to look at it is.. the same way the big boys do it. Heavy haul is used on fixed, consistent, high demand legs (think.. backbone) and you move to lighter, smaller, more dynamic capacity systems as you move into the mesh of locations that require variation in demand or you can't justify the disruption of the heavy haul service (integration into existing spaces, etc).

You use different types of transport because the demands and constraints differ. "more efficient" is just jibjab BS unless you are specifying what you are trying to optimize and are willing to trade for it.

The beauty of something like the gondola system is that the operating costs are essentially flat - regardless of capacity/demand load. So while they don't 'scale down' as a bus may - there is no need to. They have an operating ceiling that is not as high as heavy haul, but they offset that with solid throughput/hr and minimizing guest waits. They are also very cheap operationally compared to maintaining a fleet of buses. The negative is they are 'single tracked' in that they can't offer alternate routes or propulsion when there is work that needed... unlike a bus that can simply be taken out of rotation. That will force Disney to be far more diligent, and far more PROMPT in their maintenance schedules.

Buses offer economies of scale that other solutions don't.. since their use is so common and widespread. They are also incredibly 'robust' in that you can use them almost anywhere, anytime. They will always be there to bail out the other guys.

Yup - we don’t disagree. There’s clearly a place/use for all of these, and strengths/weaknesses of each. What I don’t quite buy into is the idea that Disney “cheaped out” in some way with gondolas, rather than going with autonomous vehicles of some sort, for instance. Those would have many of the same properties as buses - not really adding a new type of / leaner capacity with higher throughput the way they are with gondolas. The lightning-rod-oven-death-trap aspect notwithstanding, of course.

 

[Lensman]

Yup - we don’t disagree. There’s clearly a place/use for all of these, and strengths/weaknesses of each. What I don’t quite buy into is the idea that Disney “cheaped out” in some way with gondolas, rather than going with autonomous vehicles of some sort, for instance. Those would have many of the same properties as buses - not really adding a new type of / leaner capacity with higher throughput the way they are with gondolas. The lightning-rod-oven-death-trap aspect notwithstanding, of course.

I agree.

I did want to say that I like the idea of autonomous shuttles for intra-resort transportation. Then they could have a higher capacity mode from the main building to the parks and Disney Springs. This addresses most of what I consider the downsides to the spread-out resorts like OKW, SSR, CBR, POR, CS, and FW. It would make a great first step in autonomous transport at WDW!

 

[flynnibus]

What I don’t quite buy into is the idea that Disney “cheaped out” in some way with gondolas, rather than going with autonomous vehicles of some sort, for instance

It's "cheaped out" in the sense they did not take the bold path of innovative transportation and just stuck with regular off the shelf stuff. The monorail wasn't picked because it was the most effective - it was Walt's folly in the sense he thought it represented the idea of clean, safe, integrated transportation and Disney continued with that in WDW. Same with the peoplemover... they (like many of the EPCOT ideals implemented in WDW) were intended to be inspirational models to show how the future could be. The relative uniqueness of the installations added to the mystique. Original WDW transportation concepts were bold.

So at WDW, they were unique-ish, futuristic, bold, and tied into the better future that WDW was selling... Now? "disney is spending to fix crowded buses and roads" and that's about it. That's how even tho Disney is doing something 'on their own' -- it still lacks the credit that prior choices have.

The Skyliner lacks the bold innovation and statements in transportation that other alternatives would have made. Like large scale autonomous vehicles, pods, etc.

 

[joelkfla]

The Skyliner lacks the bold innovation and statements in transportation that other alternatives would have made. Like large scale autonomous vehicles, pods, etc.

Walt is dead. There's no visionary running Disney anymore. Keeping investment fund managers happy with increasing profits and decreasing costs is top priority.

 

[SLUSHIE]

The Skyliner lacks the bold innovation and statements in transportation that other alternatives would have made. Like large scale autonomous vehicles, pods, etc.

Those are still possible, but I think it probably makes more sense at this point to have a mode of transport that actually exists.

The pods that do exist now only go like 30 mph max and would have nowhere near the capacity or reliability of the gondola. They wouldn't even be as efficient as a fleet of Minnie Vans. Also I think investing in something that will be completely outdated technology wise within a few years also just makes no sense, especially at a large scale.

The gondola will run like clockwork for 20+ years and cost significantly less.

 

[Ponderer]

It's "cheaped out" in the sense they did not take the bold path of innovative transportation and just stuck with regular off the shelf stuff. The monorail wasn't picked because it was the most effective - it was Walt's folly in the sense he thought it represented the idea of clean, safe, integrated transportation and Disney continued with that in WDW. Same with the peoplemover... they (like many of the EPCOT ideals implemented in WDW) were intended to be inspirational models to show how the future could be. The relative uniqueness of the installations added to the mystique. Original WDW transportation concepts were bold.

So at WDW, they were unique-ish, futuristic, bold, and tied into the better future that WDW was selling... Now? "disney is spending to fix crowded buses and roads" and that's about it. That's how even tho Disney is doing something 'on their own' -- it still lacks the credit that prior choices have.

The Skyliner lacks the bold innovation and statements in transportation that other alternatives would have made. Like large scale autonomous vehicles, pods, etc.

I don't believe in boldness for the sake of boldness, or innovation for the sake of innovation. Walt wanted clean, safe, reliable transportation. He looked to existing examples and tweaked them to fit his vision. And that's wonderful. But it can go too far. Peoplemover was an operational disaster and I think the end result of this sort of overthinking. Hell, the monorail too - it's sexy and sleek, but a gargantuan expense that's terribly difficult to maintain and expand. We all get excited by innovation, but the Spruce Goose was terribly innovative too.

Sometimes the best solution, the most futuristic solution, is to go with something that works. And I believe that Disney would've LOVED the Skyliner. (I mean, come on - the original Skyway was literally a 10 year old Swiss model bought off-the-shelf from Von Roll.) And I believe in 10 years, it's going to be one the most iconic parts of a trip to WDW.

 

[danlb_2000]

^This. Geez people. If you don't melt or spontaneously combust waking down main Street you aren't going to in the gondola either. It isn't like leaving a kid in a car with the windows closed. The ventilation will make it so the interior temperature is similar to the exterior temperature. If you can survive outside you will be fine inside.

Your rational, level headed assessment of the situation is not welcome here.