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News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -
- Thread starter danlb_2000
- Start date
Since they have filed permits they are probably pretty close to being shovel ready. The CBR permit has been approved, and we know they are setting up construction trailers and a staging yard there, so the south building could in theory start any day.
Lift Blog
Well-Known Member
It depends a lot on the buildings Disney chooses to build at the stations, if any. An educated guess: $40-60 million.
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lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
The term "shovel ready" is rather pointless with a lot of big Disney projects. It assumes a traditional design-bid-build process in which all design work is done and then a contractor is hired. Disney very often utilizes a fast-track process in which certain aspects of the design are locked in early so that construction can begin before the design is completely finished.
flynnibus
Premium Member
I imagine the system like the raft rides have (Grizzy Peak, Rafts at DAK, etc) where you have a turntable that allows vehicles to pass through... or the system at the PeopleMover and SSE have similar circular platforms with the same benefit.
flynnibus
Premium Member
It's not really all that much different from the transfers at the TTC. We aren't talking a Station with half a dozen different train lines coming through like you'd have in a major hub in a subway system.
Choices are limited... dispatches are quick... loading is continuous.
People can figure out the TTC.. and the Haunted Mansion load after the elevators hasn't caused meltdowns... so people will be able to figure it out easy enough.
Most, if not all small gondolas have the doors on the outside, which makes it difficult to use a central turntable loading platform. The turntable style would also require a ramp or elevator up to the loading level, as you would have to cross under the path of the cable. Finally, gondolas usually have a central support column fight where the turntable would have to be.
If loading conveyors are used, there could be a straight belt on each side as there seems to be room for at DHS, or there could be a curved belt around the end, though I'm unaware of any curved conveyors in use carrying people. There could also be conveyors only at the highest volume stations such as DHS and EPCOT that would experience park-close crush loading, as it's generally easier to alight a group of people quickly than it is to board them.
This is a huge consideration for this type of system as the transfer penalty is virtually eliminated. Disney knows people don't want to transfer, which is why almost all buses don't require transfers. With cabins departing every few seconds continuously, guests won't have to wonder how long their transfer will take, though I don't know how they will handle lineups at the transfer station. Would transferring guests be prioritized over guests just arriving at the station, or would transferring guests have to line up again? A mixed system might be the answer.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
There is a curved conveyor in the Magic Kingdom at the WEDway PeopleMover.
I believe the platform at the PeopleMover, like Kali, is just a continuously rotating disk. This would conflict with a gondola unless it was specially designed, and I doubt they would bother. A gondola would require a 1/2 circle. Material conveyors accomplish this with curved belts and tapered rollers.
Regardless, my point is that a rotating disk doesn't work for a number of reasons. The station at DHS looks long enough for a straight conveyor on both sides, or they could use a system that doesn't have belts at all.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Uhh... you enter the platform from the OUTSIDE of the circle if you want to solve that problem.
Conveyors allows you longer load times without having to slow the vehicles as much
When waits are minor... no one cares who is in front of who. You guys are overthinking this transfer thing WAY too much. Transfers are a consequence of this kind of fixed line system.. the majority of the penalty of transfers is the waiting for the next vehicle.. which is why Bus transfers suck and everyone hates waiting for a bus for 20mins, then having to wait again after a transfer. But when waits are minimal or less stressful due to steady movement... the burden is lessened. (hence the comment about the Haunted Mansion...)
You don't seem to understand that there is no way to implement a circular rotating platform with a gondola system that has level boarding, regardless of where the rider steps onto the platform. If the disk were on the outside of the cabins, they would conflict as the cabins enter and leave the station.
The conveyor has little effect on the amount of time the cabin spends in the station, as a faster moving cabin would need to be loaded faster. These systems function well without conveyors at ski resorts where 8 people are trying to jam their skis into the door pockets while walking along in plastic ski boots on a concrete floor. The only reason Disney would really need a conveyor is if their wheelchair/ECV loading is simplified that way.
As I mentioned, the transfer penalty is virtually eliminated, which is why transfers are possible here where they really aren't with buses. It will just be interesting to see how guest flow is handled at the transfer station to keep things running smoothly. If you don't have to regroup everyone into packs of 8 or 10 at each transfer that could save time and eliminate hassle. Gondola loading at ski resorts is usually pretty free-form, with groups filling the cabins first, then a single rider line taking space where available. Disney usually groups people in advance in a "stand on the marker" system, so it will be interesting to see what system is implemented.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Just because you can't imagine the system doesn't make it impossible. The cabins change heights and drop into the load zone... they don't need to move without any elevation change into the station and load area.
The point of the conveyor is to elminate the relative speed difference between the guest and the ride vehicle.. just like every other moving loading platform. It allows the guests to load without slowing the vehicle to a stop or lower speed... because the relative speed between the guest and vehicle has been eliminated. You can load without having to slow the vehicle more... and yes, the disabled are part of that.
This problem is already solved... at every continous loading attraction. They tell you which vehicle to enter as you approach the platform. Disney can always pull special needs parties out of the queue before the platform and load them with CM's assistance as a gondola comes into the station.
Attachments
So the more I think about this idea the more it's growing on me and the more I can't wait to stay there and ride it some day.
But it really seems to me like this is probably only intended for "local" transportation from CBR/new DVC and AoA/Pop Century to Epcot and Disney Studios, not as some kind of major connection for the general public between Epcot and Disney Studios as some seem to think. Sure, people could use it to get from Epcot to DS more or less directly, but if that was really the plan, I think there would be a direct line between the two for capacity reasons. While I do think this will probably be open to all, I think there's at least a chance that it could be limited to only those people staying or with a reservation at one of the resorts it serves.
I'm an Urban Planner by profession and deal a bit with transportation. I've looked up these systems and depending on which one they go with the absolute maximum capacity is in the 4,000 to 5,000 riders per hour per direction range. That's a lot and should be sufficient for the type of system proposed (especially since there's 2 different lines that go to the 2 main destinations- so the capacity is effectively doubled), but I'm not sure anyone should go off thinking this is going to get expanded to serve major routes between parks- I don't think it's fast enough or has enough capacity for that kind of "backbone" system. This seems perfect for relatively short connections between a couple hotels and a park or two. AKL to AK would be killer- just saying.
The current Mk VI monorails have a bit more total capacity per direction at max operation (though there aren't enough to operate at that rate on the MK/Epcot line) and are about 2.5 times as fast compared to these gondola systems. Commercial monorails (like those being built/used now in Asia) and light rail are a bit faster and have significantly higher capacity than the existing monorails. So in my professional opinion, any future theoretical "backbone" line connecting Disney Springs, Epcot, Disney Studios and Animal Kingdom would need to be something else with higher capacity. I'm not saying it's ever going to happen, just that if it does they will be dealing with having to build a real high capacity mass transit system of some kind and not an attraction. I love the monorails, but what they have now were really designed as an attraction and not mass transit.
I'll leave you with a couple thoughts regarding Disney's long term transportation plans:
1. They are a publicly traded company. As much as we all wish it weren't true, their only incentive is profit. They will therefore do things the cheapest possible way that gets them the needed results. That means transportation, along with everything else, will be totally driven by cost and efficiency.
2. They will continue using buses as long as they can. The only things that will move them away from buses are:
A) something more cost effective
B) a financial incentive like being able to charge more for a hotel or DVC that has a better means of connection (i.e. the "skyway")
C) logistical constraints, such as not being able to fit any more buses on the roads or being able to fit in any more bus bays at the parks.
We're seeing 2B right now with the "skyway". They are doing it so they can build DVC there and charge more at the other hotels. There's no question about that. I think we are also seeing the start of 2C as well. They are close to the maximum use of buses. Buses get stuck in traffic just like cars, at which point they become less efficient and less reliable. In most discussions of mass transit people tend to ignore the fact that roads cost A LOT of money to build. If you have road capacity buses are great. If you don't and you're going to have to build road capacity (which Disney has been doing for a while now), it gets very expensive. I don't know about construction costs in FL, but here, not including land, building new 4 lane highways costs on the order of 20-30 million dollars per mile and interchanges run 30-70 million each. That adds up to hundreds of millions pretty fast and if Disney keeps building and increasing the density of WDW, they aren't going to be able to avoid making those kinds of investments (maybe roads, maybe dedicated busways, maybe something else). My guess is that they are already designing for those eventualities with the locations of new projects, but the trigger would be if and when they do a 5th gate. Lastly, 2A... I think they are probably close to other methods being cheaper than buses too, which probably also plays into the the "Skyway" and would probably be the driver if other hotels get something like this. 1 new bus costs around $500,000 and probably lasts 8 years- maybe less given how much they probably drive them. Running 1 bus 7 days a week takes 3-5 full time drivers, plus maintenance, cleaning, fuel, etc. I'd bet they are spending between $300,000 and $500,000 per year per bus. That's a ton of money given that Wikipedia tells me they have close to 400 buses. So between transportation capital projects (roads) and transportation operating costs, WDW is easily spending several hundred million dollars a year. As park and hotel capacity continues to grow and they are forced to continue expanding the transportation system, if they can find a cheaper or more efficient means of moving people, that's what they'll do.
I presume that's at least part of why we're talking about a "skyway" system right now. Should the day come that they decide to pull the trigger on a 5th gate, I suspect that they will have a very serious discussion about transportation and whether something other than bus makes sense financially. Maybe it will maybe it won't. But right now, I think this "skyway" system is just a one (or two) off means to an end.
But it really seems to me like this is probably only intended for "local" transportation from CBR/new DVC and AoA/Pop Century to Epcot and Disney Studios, not as some kind of major connection for the general public between Epcot and Disney Studios as some seem to think. Sure, people could use it to get from Epcot to DS more or less directly, but if that was really the plan, I think there would be a direct line between the two for capacity reasons. While I do think this will probably be open to all, I think there's at least a chance that it could be limited to only those people staying or with a reservation at one of the resorts it serves.
I'm an Urban Planner by profession and deal a bit with transportation. I've looked up these systems and depending on which one they go with the absolute maximum capacity is in the 4,000 to 5,000 riders per hour per direction range. That's a lot and should be sufficient for the type of system proposed (especially since there's 2 different lines that go to the 2 main destinations- so the capacity is effectively doubled), but I'm not sure anyone should go off thinking this is going to get expanded to serve major routes between parks- I don't think it's fast enough or has enough capacity for that kind of "backbone" system. This seems perfect for relatively short connections between a couple hotels and a park or two. AKL to AK would be killer- just saying.
The current Mk VI monorails have a bit more total capacity per direction at max operation (though there aren't enough to operate at that rate on the MK/Epcot line) and are about 2.5 times as fast compared to these gondola systems. Commercial monorails (like those being built/used now in Asia) and light rail are a bit faster and have significantly higher capacity than the existing monorails. So in my professional opinion, any future theoretical "backbone" line connecting Disney Springs, Epcot, Disney Studios and Animal Kingdom would need to be something else with higher capacity. I'm not saying it's ever going to happen, just that if it does they will be dealing with having to build a real high capacity mass transit system of some kind and not an attraction. I love the monorails, but what they have now were really designed as an attraction and not mass transit.
I'll leave you with a couple thoughts regarding Disney's long term transportation plans:
1. They are a publicly traded company. As much as we all wish it weren't true, their only incentive is profit. They will therefore do things the cheapest possible way that gets them the needed results. That means transportation, along with everything else, will be totally driven by cost and efficiency.
2. They will continue using buses as long as they can. The only things that will move them away from buses are:
A) something more cost effective
B) a financial incentive like being able to charge more for a hotel or DVC that has a better means of connection (i.e. the "skyway")
C) logistical constraints, such as not being able to fit any more buses on the roads or being able to fit in any more bus bays at the parks.
We're seeing 2B right now with the "skyway". They are doing it so they can build DVC there and charge more at the other hotels. There's no question about that. I think we are also seeing the start of 2C as well. They are close to the maximum use of buses. Buses get stuck in traffic just like cars, at which point they become less efficient and less reliable. In most discussions of mass transit people tend to ignore the fact that roads cost A LOT of money to build. If you have road capacity buses are great. If you don't and you're going to have to build road capacity (which Disney has been doing for a while now), it gets very expensive. I don't know about construction costs in FL, but here, not including land, building new 4 lane highways costs on the order of 20-30 million dollars per mile and interchanges run 30-70 million each. That adds up to hundreds of millions pretty fast and if Disney keeps building and increasing the density of WDW, they aren't going to be able to avoid making those kinds of investments (maybe roads, maybe dedicated busways, maybe something else). My guess is that they are already designing for those eventualities with the locations of new projects, but the trigger would be if and when they do a 5th gate. Lastly, 2A... I think they are probably close to other methods being cheaper than buses too, which probably also plays into the the "Skyway" and would probably be the driver if other hotels get something like this. 1 new bus costs around $500,000 and probably lasts 8 years- maybe less given how much they probably drive them. Running 1 bus 7 days a week takes 3-5 full time drivers, plus maintenance, cleaning, fuel, etc. I'd bet they are spending between $300,000 and $500,000 per year per bus. That's a ton of money given that Wikipedia tells me they have close to 400 buses. So between transportation capital projects (roads) and transportation operating costs, WDW is easily spending several hundred million dollars a year. As park and hotel capacity continues to grow and they are forced to continue expanding the transportation system, if they can find a cheaper or more efficient means of moving people, that's what they'll do.
I presume that's at least part of why we're talking about a "skyway" system right now. Should the day come that they decide to pull the trigger on a 5th gate, I suspect that they will have a very serious discussion about transportation and whether something other than bus makes sense financially. Maybe it will maybe it won't. But right now, I think this "skyway" system is just a one (or two) off means to an end.
There would be solutions that would permit a circular loading platform to be used. They would all cost money and would limit the number of off-the-shelf designs that can be used. Ski lift manufacturers are accustomed to working with straight conveyor belts, and it appears that the building at DHS is large enough to accommodate straight belts on each side of the station. The load belts at Rip Ride Rockit are actually made by a ski lift manufacturer.
Belts certainly help when loading omnimover attractions, as they take a step up into a moving vehicle and make it a step onto a moving belt followed by a step up into the vehicle. Gondolas are level boarding, so the belt doesn't make as much of a difference as they do at a ride like TTA with a step. What makes me hesitate most about belts is that I'm unaware of any Disney rides with belts that don't still stop to load a wheelchair or ECV. This system needs to accommodate those users well, as every wheelchair or ECV will be brought on board, no ECV users will elect to leave theirs out front to simplify boarding. Disney has shown a real understanding of how to make the wheelchair/ECV loading process work well with modern rides like TSMM, I'm sure they'll be applying this experience here as the number of wheelchairs and ECVs continues to increase.
I don't want to make it seem like I'm trying to argue here. Disney has built their brand by considering details about every aspect of the theme park experience, and fan communities like this one take great pleasure in discussing these details and how they will affect the guest experience. I appreciate that you mention the continuous loading attractions; while Disney has experience with them, a Gondola takes some qualities of a continuous loading attraction and some qualities of a more traditional ride. At haunted mansion, guests are loaded two by two regardless of party size. If you have an odd number of people in your party, someone has to sit alone unless they're small enough to cram in. The occasional seat goes empty, but this is acceptable as it is entertainment device.
A gondola's primary goal is transportation, the goal is to fill every seat but you also don't want to split parties unnecessarily. A cabin will fit 8 or ten people, possibly more. Unlike an omnimover though, you have 10 seconds or more between cars, and likely 40-50 seconds of time to load each cabin. This is the middle ground between continuous and stationary loading. At peak times, it won't be good if cabins are leaving 60% full because a family of six was in front of a family of 5. I've worked at a ski resort as the person in line making groups to fill chairs, and it's a very dynamic and busy process, that only works when everyone has the same goal of trying to fit as many people on. There are a lot of factors to consider, and though the stakes are pretty low, if you're bad at the job throughput will fall. We know that at WDW, no matter how big the lineup is, there are going to be entitled parties of 4 that want the entire cabin to themselves, or people who just don't care. This is the situation where we expect Disney to excel, maximizing the number of people in each cabin without detracting from the overall experience.
hpyhnt 1000
Well-Known Member
Very helpful in trying to visualize how a WDW system might work, especially for that DVC station.
From what I can tell, Alton Tower's system is approximately 3,600' end to end (roughly 1,800 feet between stations). Judging from the video, their gondolas travel at about 9 ft/sec, or 6 MPH. Given the longer distances involved at WDW (see below), I'm sure Disney's application will be capable of a significantly higher rate of travel.
CBR to AoA/Pop - 2,000'
CBR to DHS - 3,800'
CBR to Epcot - 7,600' (to new DVC - 2,000')
* I know someone posted distances before but I couldn't find them.
Magenta Panther
Well-Known Member
So will these gondolas be fully enclosed? Because I have visions of people riding them spitting and dropping things onto the people below. 
flynnibus
Premium Member
So we agree the 'impossible' and 'cant' are off the table. What they will go with, I have no idea but it will be interesting to see.
Step or level is irrelevant to why the belt is used.. the belt is used to allow boarders to move at the same speed as the vehicle.
Nemo, TLM, and Buzz all have roll-on wheelchair vehicles that use a moving belt and don't require stopping the attraction to load. They will slow down to allow more time and stop it if they have trouble loading.
Disney will want efficency of course... but Disney has proven time and time again they will put accessibility needs high on the priority list..even at the expense of other guests.
Disney is going to be sending empty seats out all the time because they aren't going to break up parties. None of this new or concerning. The high volume of dispatches means none of this is that big of a deal. It's better to send an empty seat or two than disrupt the system or put a guest at risk trying to cram something in last second, etc.
This is the same story and pressure groupers and station staff deal with on every tight interval attraction and the omnimovers. Training covers how to handle indecisive or demanding guests. None of this is new, or really unique to this system.
Depending on the size of the cabins they will have trouble filling them completely at any time of day simply due to party sizes. It's not a real concern in how they will 'cope'. It's a reason to have the larger cabins if possible as it reduces the problem.. like all 'fitting' problems.
roj2323
Well-Known Member
I was hoping you might be able to fill us in on the maintenance cost and schedule for for a typical system similar to the WDW system that will run 365 days a year. Basically what I'm getting at here is a gondola system expensive or cheap to maintain and how often does a system have to go down for an extended repair. Thanks for joining the forum btw.