DAS abuse has been rampant since the get go, as was GAC before and the disability/wheelchair service before that. It got really bad during COVID, before G+, since people just didn't want to wait in lines and there was no alternative. Then it's gotten worse with G+.
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New DAS System at Walt Disney World 2024
- Thread starter AEfx
- Start date
DAS abuse has been rampant since the get go, as was GAC before and the disability/wheelchair service before that. It got really bad during COVID, before G+, since people just didn't want to wait in lines and there was no alternative. Then it's gotten worse with G+.
Fido Chuckwagon
Well-Known Member
Important to note that the pre-Genie DAS system required physically going to the attraction and speaking to a CM to get a return time, and did not include pre-selects. The system necessarily started using more capacity when they switched to electronic DAS pulls & started giving pre-selects, regardless of total number of users (which also increased). It’s actually an interesting parallel to what happened when they switched from paper fastpasses to FP+.
lentesta
Premium Member
I think we can be sure it rose just from Disney's own statements on it.
In this 2020 lawsuit about ADA accommodation at its parks, the court found this data from Disney persuasive (emphasis mine):
In a two-week study conducted by Disney's Industrial Engineering team in April 2013, the team found that GAC pass usage at five of the most popular attractions at Disney (the "GAC Study") was much higher than the percentage of guests in the park who held a GAC pass.
At that time, approximately 3.3% of guests at Disney used a GAC pass, yet the percentage of guests on the most popular rides who had a GAC pass and entered through the FastPass line was significantly higher than 3.3%.
The GAC Study showed that 11% of riders on Space Mountain, 13% of riders on Splash Mountain, and 30% on Toy Story Mania used a GAC pass to access the ride.
Disney's industrial engineers concluded that the small portion of the guest population who held GAC pass was consuming a substantial portion of the ride capacity.
For example, guests with a GAC pass were riding Toy Story Mania an average of ten times more than guests who did not have a GAC pass.
Cite: A.L. v. Walt Disney Parks & Resorts US, Inc., 469 F. Supp. 3d 1280, 1294 (M.D. Fla. 2020). The quote above is on the right-hand side of page 9.
Disney said when announcing DAS changes that use of the system has tripled in the last 5 years. (Second cite here.)
princessmadi
New Member
I'm new here to the forum. I haven't read the 220 pages before this but feel the need to comment. First off DAS is and never was front of the line in case that was brought up. In many cases for me being in a wheelchair I wait longer than those in the standby line. The main reason is because I still have to wait for the wheelchair accessible vehicle (WAV) to come around. Also most of the attractions with a WAV are "walk ons" but the wait times are still posted over 10 minutes and not the actual wait time. As a DAS user I still have to go into the app and schedule a return time, wait whatever that time might be which is never even close to the posted standby time, then return to wait in the LL and then wait for the WAV. I have more than a mobility issue and for many reasons I can not go through the regular standby lines. I need to be able to go through the LL. I can not use Genie+ because I get to the parks too late in the day and only ride the attractions with a WAV. I just renewed my DAS for an upcoming trip and the CM never even asked why I needed the DAS. I'm curiously waiting for May 20th to see how Disney rolls out these new changes and how they will accommodate someone like me.
princessmadi
New Member
Wow! Not quite understanding how there were more users accessing these popular rides than the percentage of those guests in the park who held a GAC pass. Something is not right here. In any case switching to DAS did not reduce the abuse. Once again these new changes will not reduce the abuse. It does make sense that Toy Story Mania was popular and had a higher percentage of GAC users since it was the newest attraction with a wheelchair accessible vehicle (WAV). It was one of the very few attractions with a WAV at Hollywood Studios. Both wheelchair and scooter users wait in the same line and then before the stairs veer off into their own line waiting longer most times than even those in the standby line. I can only imagine what percentage that attraction would be today since it is the only attraction in Hollywood Studios with a WAV.
Although our situation is a bit different I also noted a few of the concerns you have. This is definitely a difficult situation and unfortunately (or fortunately) not everyone understands what it is like having to deal with this on a daily basis and how everything has to be seen in the light of 'can it be done'. Just know that there are people in this forum that understand.
Splash4eva
Well-Known Member
Way back when during the EMH say late 90s/2000 i vividly recall staying in Splash and Big Thunder w/o even getting off i dont know if thats a fair comparison but an example at least.
MickeyLuv'r
Well-Known Member
Not necessarily, because that is also assuming that 'going on other rides' = timing things perfectly.
Let's say someone gets a DAS for an attraction with a 25minute wait- say Pooh, and then they go on another ride while waiting using the standby queue.
Yes, they are doing another attraction, but odds are pretty high that it will take more than 25 minutes to do the other attraction. On a slow day like today at 10:30am, here are the options:
Astro - 35 -too long
Barnstormer 10
BTMRR 20
Buzz 15
watch Dapper Dans - no impact
watch cavalcade - no impact
Dumbo 10
HoP - who cares
HM 35 - too long
iasw 10
JC 40 - too long
Riverboat
teacups 5
Aladdin 15
Pooh 25
Meet Ariel 25
Meet Cindy/Mickey 30 - too long
Meet Disney Pals 20-25
Meet Tiana 30 - too long
Philarmagic 15
Monsters
PP 40 - too long
Pirate 25
Carousel 10
7D 65- too long
SM 40 - too long
Treehouse
Speedway 20
Peoplemover 5
LM 15
CoP 5
Tiki Room 15
So if we really break it down, light blue = takes too long, dark blue= no real impact because the attraction has no wait/rarely fills to capacity. If they did the orange attractions, they would take more than 25minutes.
The list of attractions they can cover in less than 25minutes is pretty short: Barnstormer (who cares?) Buzz, Dumbo, teacups, Aladdin, Carousel, Peoplemover, and LM. It sorta works in MK, but most of those are what we might call skippable.
MickeyLuv'r
Well-Known Member
In Epoct, they could do another attraction while waiting for their Remy pass- 45 minutes.
Options are:
Awesome Planet
Canada
Pixar films
FEA- 75 - too long
Gran Fiesta - 5
Imagination - 10
Moana
M:S 35
China
Rat 45
Nemo 5
SE (down)
Soar - 30
TT65
Turtle Talk - 15
So while they are waiting they could maybe do Imagination, Nemo, or Spaceship Earth inside of 45 minutes, AND be an attraction that has any real impact. Except SE would require walking from one end of Epcot all the way to the back, so that isn't likely even if it is theoretically doable.
So then maybe after that they choose a DAS pass for FEA or Test Track. Are they going to go on Imagination again and again all day while they wait for every pass?
It just seems to me that there is a natural limit on how much people could possibly be making this work.
Now sure, if they are seeing the China movie, they are doing something that people in the standby queue can't do, but odds are high if they are going to the China film they are going to the gift shop then meandering back to Remy in a way that is going to take more than 45minutes.
Options are:
Awesome Planet
Canada
Pixar films
FEA- 75 - too long
Gran Fiesta - 5
Imagination - 10
Moana
M:S 35
China
Rat 45
Nemo 5
SE (down)
Soar - 30
TT65
Turtle Talk - 15
So while they are waiting they could maybe do Imagination, Nemo, or Spaceship Earth inside of 45 minutes, AND be an attraction that has any real impact. Except SE would require walking from one end of Epcot all the way to the back, so that isn't likely even if it is theoretically doable.
So then maybe after that they choose a DAS pass for FEA or Test Track. Are they going to go on Imagination again and again all day while they wait for every pass?
It just seems to me that there is a natural limit on how much people could possibly be making this work.
Now sure, if they are seeing the China movie, they are doing something that people in the standby queue can't do, but odds are high if they are going to the China film they are going to the gift shop then meandering back to Remy in a way that is going to take more than 45minutes.
pdude81
Well-Known Member
If someone was maximizing their waits, they wouldn't choose a shorter line and queue for something longer. So in the case DAS is used for pooh, people could go get a snack, go to the bathroom, watch a parade, or quite possibly do IASW. For anybody who really likes 7DMT, they could just get a pass for that and then do Pooh and VOTLM while waiting for that time to come back up. Also remember if for some reason the guest got a pass for something that is 25 minutes and then came back 35 minutes later due to any number of reasons, they still get to go in the LL. So you can't immediately discount other lines that are similar in length from people possible targets.
You were saying that some queues have short waits so a person going into that queue while having a return pass doesn't make a difference. I think that is impossible as anybody behind you in those queues had to wait at least one person longer. And the overall difference on people essentially being in two queues at once is proportionally related to the number of people using that strategy. And if those former "walk on" attractions start getting longer waits from people who have nothing to do waiting for the 7DMT return time, then it cuts back on what the day guest can do without paying for G+ or ILL to make their day manageable.
For people who truly need DAS to make their park experience manageable, I agree that they aren't likely trying to sneak in extra rides while waiting for the 25 minute Pooh window to end. But it seems Disney has determined that a high enough percentage of people they gave DAS to are gaining an advantage over guests that don't have that accommodation. Personally I know how to maximize the line waits and get a ton done with G+, though it's somewhat unpredictable what will be available throughout the day. Given that line waits are far less predictable than which G+ time slots are left, they have created a situation where this DAS is more effective, more efficient, allows for actually planning your day ahead of time rather than just kind of winging it, costs nothing compared to $30ish per person, and ultimately impacts 40% of guests in attendance.
I think you are applying your decision engine to a static point in time and thinking about what you would do in that situation. That can't be applied to a fictional guest I will create (for this example) who lied about their anxiety to get DAS and intends to ride as many things as possible today. They could get that Pooh pass, go knock out Dumbo and meet the characters in big top, then walk back to do Pooh, then get a pass for 7DMT and ride UTS, meet ariel, ride IASW, have a snack. Then ride 7DMT, get a SM pass, do peoplemover and MILF, do Tron if they got a boarding group, ride SM. Then get a HM pass, grab a hot dog on the way, hit the Tangled restrooms, ride HM. Then get a BTMRR pass, do Tiki Room and magic carpets, do Pirates, then use the BTMRR pass. Clearly this is a hard-to-follow narrative and just a random example of what to do, but some people will maximize in this way. It's what people used to do with FP+ when they could plan certain rides at certain times and know what the line waits would likely be as the day goes on.
pdude81
Well-Known Member
There is a natural limit to what can be done just based on what is available, the attraction duration, and the time it takes to get between queues. Epcot doesn't have a lot of rides around WSL but has lots to see and do while you're waiting. And if you used return times for Remy, Frozen, and TT, that allows you to knock out all the other rides during those wait times and then can relax more beyond that. As you said, many times people could return to the LL a bit later in the window if they were off doing other stuff. And you are also correct that there are less attractions here to double up on than MK. But the net effect if there are people using the service for return times who don't truly need to is that those E-Ticket line waits get unmanageable for a lot of other guests and they flood the shorter wait rides. Ultimately the length of wait goes up for everybody, everywhere.
I'd like to add that I don't really have a problem with people using the service Disney allows them to for it's full potential. I personally have no issues with a disabled individual and their immediate family having more efficient and useful access than I do. I don't care if a disabled child has a fixation on SDD and uses his pass to ride if 5x that day. But I think just about every one of us now knows some people who have lied or exaggerated their issues to get DAS, and that's become an untenable problem. The outliers are ruining it for everybody, not the reasonable cases you are looking at.
Vacationeer
Well-Known Member
- In the Parks
- No
Part of what’s missing from comparisons is that even when a DAS party chooses not to do another attraction or do an attraction that doesn’t really need DAS, whatever else they are doing can still be an advantage over nonDAS guest/party.
When a DAS party gets a 85 return on 7DMT, they can have a meal, use restroom, take park photos, visit exhibits, etc. Even without going on other rides there is still the potential to maximize much further than standby guests.
A standby guest has to take time out to accomplish those things. They cannot do any of that while waiting on line.
It a big difference to experience and potential.
WDW would likely not risk making widespread changes without data to back up decisions. What is the average parkgoer accomplishing each day vs the average DAS holder. If the wide middle of the bell curves for both groups show one with much higher rates, then the system is broken as far as matching experiences is concerned.
When a DAS party gets a 85 return on 7DMT, they can have a meal, use restroom, take park photos, visit exhibits, etc. Even without going on other rides there is still the potential to maximize much further than standby guests.
A standby guest has to take time out to accomplish those things. They cannot do any of that while waiting on line.
It a big difference to experience and potential.
WDW would likely not risk making widespread changes without data to back up decisions. What is the average parkgoer accomplishing each day vs the average DAS holder. If the wide middle of the bell curves for both groups show one with much higher rates, then the system is broken as far as matching experiences is concerned.
Angel Ariel
Well-Known Member
Perhaps those lying to abuse the system can do this, but for our DAS family this kind of back and forth is not possible. When we hit world showcase, we aren't heading back to the front of the park to do rides at the seas/land/GOTG, etc. It's just too much.
pdude81
Well-Known Member
Agreed. In many cases those who can't wait in long queues also can't crisscross the parks and maximize usage. I hope the new process reserves DAS for those who need it and ultimately lowers SB waits across the board, which helps everybody.
Ayla
Well-Known Member
Based on what I am reading on a Facebook DAS group that was recommended to me (thanks algorithms
), it seems the "new" approval process is basically worthless and everyone that asks for DAS is getting it.
Chi84
Premium Member
Given the short rollout time I imagine there will be a long grace period for people who booked in reliance on the old rules.Based on what I am reading on a Facebook DAS group that was recommended to me (thanks algorithms
Jenn Finan
New Member
Very, very true. I have visited the park with my young nephew who has both autism and cerebral palsy and on our BEST day, we are able to do about 5 hours in a park. I don't know anyone with a disability who is able to maximize their visits to the parks like an able bodied person. Our party needs to rest more, can't walk as far and often need to accommodate more meltdowns or potential meltdowns so no.... our parties are not really comparable to able bodied parties except towards the low end of the bell curve. Simply walking across the park to get to another ride while we are waiting is a non-starter for a number of reasons when dealing with a child with autism. Most DAS parties are much slower and able to accomplish much less. For me, a typical day in the park involves 2, possible 3 rides and maybe a little food/shopping if we are lucky. Guest Services has told us that the mean is for us to be able to experience 5 rides or experiences in a day which is what the average guest is able to do. Some may be able to reach that level but I believe that they are the outliers, not the norm.
pdude81
Well-Known Member
Interesting. Are they mostly saying that the accommodations are for developmental disabilities, or are you noticing broad approval for many conditions?Based on what I am reading on a Facebook DAS group that was recommended to me (thanks algorithms
The thing you are forgetting is (at least for those who genuinely need DAS) is that those things such as restrooms/eating can take MUCH longer than abled bodied persons.
MickeyLuv'r
Well-Known Member
but this is assuming the person getting the DAS REALLY doesn't need it, and also well, if they can get DAS, why would they want to wait in a 40min queue?
From what I know of human nature, I am inclined to think people with a DAS would be inclined to use the pass to take breaks instead.
I am inclined to think most people who get DAS have some degree of disability. Grandma with COPD is not eagerly racing around MK in 95 degree heat unless there is a strong reason. I'm inclined to think DAS = the family can now travel at a far more relaxed pace.