New DAS System at Walt Disney World 2024

[Happyday]

Two, fine. But having one disabled individual plus 5 people getting to use the LL as well, to me, is excessive. It multiplies very quickly.

Absolutely but limiting it to one like in that suggestion is not feasible

 

[Disney Glimpses]

I think that’s what is not gonna be said outloud with this.

I don't know that I agree, to be honest. I think Disney would be completely satisfied with all of the people who are using DAS who do not necessarily require it moving into the standby queue. DAS abuse/misuse is directly correlated to long LL queues and stalled standby queues.

 

[Splash4eva]

It's more that people are using DAS as a means to get LL for free. Not that they are trying to remove DAS access from legitimate holders as a means to generate revenue.

I pay for Genie as well along with ILL and some people think thats not fair to do. So which one is it? I have DAS. I do what i do because its what i need for my family’s best interest to make it more manageable and still worth going.

 

[Disney Glimpses]

I pay for Genie as well along with ILL and some people think thats not fair to do. So which one is it? I have DAS. I do what i do because its what i need for my family’s best interest to make it more manageable and still worth going.

DAS is intended to be an accessible form of the standby queue. Genie+ is a premium offering. Absolutely nothing wrong with doing both.

 

[Splash4eva]

I think that’s what is not gonna be said outloud with this.

Of course. This is mostly a money grab hidden behind the claim of bettering guest experience. Once again trying to cover up lack of capacity and a system that cant handle what is intended to again make more money. Hey maybe the stock will hit 150 again soon enough!!! Sloppy seconds from Universal may pay off big for them in 2025 as well

 

[Splash4eva]

DAS is intended to be an accessible form of the standby queue. Genie+ is a premium offering. Absolutely nothing wrong with doing both.

I agree but others feel it becomes a true unfair advantage to have both. I dont agree with that belief.

 

[jaklgreen]

Right now the video chat requires that the child be on the video chat as well. I don’t think that as many people are capable of lying like that in front of their children as you think.

It only requires a quick picture of the child, not that the child sit there for the interview. I am on a DAS FB group and many people say that the trip is a surprise and that they just call in the child to say a quick "hi" to "mommy's friend" and the cast member plays along and takes the quick snap. No one forces a child to sit and listen to them hear about their medical issues.

 

[seabreezept813]

It’s a mix though. There’s some definite abuse. “I have IBS” when the person does not have IBS. There’s also probably some level of “soft abuse” from people who have conditions and are qualifying, but also are definitely using accommodations they don’t actually need. Finally there are the general systemic problems. These three things are not mutually exclusive.

Just to throw it out there, but I wonder if Covid has some to do with the increase in ailments too. My gastroenterologist said the amount of people with stomach issues skyrocketed with the pandemic. Possibly something to do with the virus itself, and another part with the trauma and stress of that type of world event.

 

[DisneyHead123]

I kinda get you here

But the other factor is that Disney is fighting a silent battle at the gates. The Bobs overpriced the parks

If this was 2007 or 2015…the PR concern would be minor. But they don’t need bad juju now. There’s only so long threatened Bob can say the parks are making more money by slashing hourlies and jacking prices on bottled water.

Also, isn’t the landscape kinda different now with things like ESG ratings?

I’m not entirely clear on how those work so I’m not sure what to make of them. Whatever one makes of them, though, I think DAS is the kind of issue that would be absolutely front and center in regard to ESG, and Disney would need to tread carefully there.

 

[hopemax]

Nobody is asserting that. Whether you have DAS or not the average person can only tolerate so many long waits in one day and still have a somewhat enjoyable day. One of the reasons that DAS is leading to such a hoovering of ride capacity is because DAS users, in the aggregate, are almost certainly riding more attractions per day than those without DAS.

You were part of the same exchange with a specific poster who did say DAS users are simply people who would have been in the standby line without it. Which I disagreed with as well and explained why. I was repeating it, to infer again, it was incorrect because Disney wouldn’t be making these changes if the end result was moving people from one line to another. Disney expects a group out of line altogether.

However, I think I also disagree with your assumption about the quantity of rides DAS users are accomplishing. I would guess it’s still much like the Shapeland modeling of FP+. With the majority of people on the 1-4 attractions per day part of the curve, and a small group of power users that are on the 10+ end.

This will claw back some capacity, but I don’t think it will be as much as people expect. The comparison to what Universal experienced only goes so far. Universal is a resort where their daily attendance / capacity are in better balance. People who truly need accommodation are likely selecting Disney over Universal at higher rates anyway, so the number of legitimate users at Disney will remain high enough to be problematic. Some of the clawed back capacity will go to DAS users increasing their ride count from 4 to 5. Because when the LL gets out of control, backed up at tap in, or return times get stretched out, legitimate users have been negatively affected too. With some having to take a break or call it a day.

My guess, this is mostly Disney expecting not having to run at 1 standby party per 100 LL as often as they do. Disney has some number they are happy with 90:10, 80:20, but the abuse doesn’t allow them to maintain even those sort of ratios. The real culprit of inadequate capacity at WDW attractions, remains unaddressed. And I think we’ll find legitimate usage in a post- mass debilitating event (covid) / better diagnosis world is still high enough to break the system on the worst offending insufficient capacity attractions.

 

[jaklgreen]

I don't know that I agree, to be honest. I think Disney would be completely satisfied with all of the people who are using DAS who do not necessarily require it moving into the standby queue. DAS abuse/misuse is directly correlated to long LL queues and stalled standby queues.

Well obviously this would be case by case. If you have a single parent traveling with their 2 minor children, you are not going to leave one kid alone. I think that immediate family, (parents and kids) is fair. Aunts, uncles, grandma, grandpa don't all need to get lumped into that DAS group.

 

[Chi84]

I never said it’s not legal, I said it’s being tested in court. There’s litigation pending. I have no idea how that case is going to turn out, the court may end up ruling that it’s fine and Disney may end up following suit. The rules for education are different and for the workplace are different.

There are different rules for the workplace and schools. The section on public accommodations makes (IIRC) three mentions of prohibited documentation. They involve mobility devices, accessible seating and service dogs. For the most part, the ADA doesn't want businesses asking for documentation before allowing a person to use the accommodations that the ADA requires.

A business can ask for some assurance that the person using the mobility device can drive it; a driver's license is okay, but a verbal assurance that is not contradicted by observation is allowed.

A business is prohibited from asking for documentation that a person needs accessible seating. But this involves physical modifications for seating that are covered by the ADA. If the business runs out of the required amount of accessible seating the next person who requests it is out of luck and the ADA has not been violated.

The third (and the one that is cited in Six Flags' lawsuit (I need to check that)) is the prohibition against asking for documentation of service dogs. Allowing service dogs is expressly required by the ADA and allows two questions to be asked - whether the animal is required because of a disability and what work or tasks the animal is trained to perform. There are also protections for the business if the animal is not behaving as a service dog and causing disruption.

The first two - mobility devices and accessible seating - are distinguishable from something like line accommodations. The third - service animals - is the closest. But service animals are expressly covered by the ADA and, to be honest, that provision is wildly unpopular and abused. I would not want to be the lawyer asking for an extension of that provision to prohibit asking for accommodation for standing in lines at a theme park.

I believe there is a DOJ opinion saying that a line accommodation "may" be required, but those opinions expressly state that they have no legal effect and are not binding.

The fact is that - from what I've seen - the law is very unsettled in this area. I don't think Disney's lawyers know for certain how the Six Flags litigation will turn out, but my bet is that Six Flags will win. Just my opinion, which can definitely be wrong.

I'm just addressing documentation, not what's reasonable accommodation or what questions can be asked.

 

[Splash4eva]

Another suggestion is get rid of the 10 minute early return. If im not mistaken if wait time is 90 minute they have a return time 80 minutes. Keep it at 90. All these little things would help imo. And also i get they need to get people out of LL but if they slowed it down by say 5 minutes its not going to cause a major issue with DAS users and with people using LL.

 

[Happyday]

Universal also does not actively court the DAS/ECV crowd as aggressively as Disney. This is partly because of the ride mix, but also a philosophical approach.

Disney has become a victim of its own "success" in attracting these particular guests and having become known as the place to be for them.

Having one ECV navigate a tight walkway in Adventureland is fine, but when they are dozens, it becomes unmanageable and a dangerous and unpleasant experience for the other guests trying to dodge out of their way (I've had several bruised Achilles' to attest to it).

Having a few random DAS parties once in a while for Peter Pan is fine, but when you have dozens that then virtually shut down the standby line, it becomes unmanageable.

Just look how Disney World has been described on this thread as if it is the only place they can go to be accommodated while being entertained. That has become a blessing and a curse for Disney and Universal is more than happy to not be at the top of that list.

The challenge for Disney is how do they now unwind this mess.

Okay this helps me with my questions. I know we don't go to Universal because we are not familiar with their ride systems. We take advantage of a lot of the wheelchair accessible rides, where the individual stays in their own chair for the ride. We can transfer however it is not always easy and can cause a meltdown (exceptions include most rollercoasters weird huh) but we can't always predict it...

 

[Jrb1979]

I get the frustration with these changes. I know DAS is a very sensitive subject. At the same time there has to be a balance. Yes there should be things in place that help those with disabilities to make their visit enjoyable and equal those without disabilities. At the same time it shouldn't be a the expense of other guests.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

the same time it shouldn't be a the expense of other guests.

Absolutely it should. Handicap spots take away good spots from other guests. Handicap viewing for the parade and fireworks takes away prime viewing from other guests.

Loading a wheelchair onto the jungle cruise takes away capacity and reduces the efficiency of the attraction.

Proper use of DAS will slow down the standby line and that’s fine.

 

[DisneyHead123]

Would these issues hypothetically be resolved if Disney eventually had separate lines for DAS vs. LL? I know it would take awhile, but long term it seems like that would need to be the solution.

DAS is supposed to be equivalent to standby, so assuming Disney calculated the times accurately, DAS should theoretically not change standby waits. It would just split those waiting into different locations. And while it would take time, additional queues seem like they’d be on the relatively uncomplicated side in terms of construction.

 

[networkpro]

Thats what I’m saying. They want to sell LLs. Not give people free LLs, DAS, who don’t need it.

LLs are capped per hour, DAS is not.

 

[jaklgreen]

And that's the rub. How do you make a rule out of that as every situation is different?

What if the parents and kids is 8 people? What if the father of the children died and it's just mom and her sister taking the two minor children? What if Grandpa has Alzheimer's and they are afraid of leaving him alone out in the park by himself while they ride?

The examples are endless and Disney will be sued not for sticking to a hard (if unpleasant) rule, but by making some exceptions and not all.

I know, they are in a tough spot here. I agree that something has to be done. But short of actually asking for proof, how are they going to pick and choose who they think is "faking it"? From what some have said, it seems that a huge problem is actual cast members. Why don't they start there first?

 

[flynnibus]

The first two - mobility devices and accessible seating - are distinguishable from something like line accommodations. The third - service animals - is the closest. But service animals are expressly covered by the ADA and, to be honest, that provision is wildly unpopular and abused. I would not want to be the lawyer asking for an extension of that provision to prohibit asking for accommodation for standing in lines at a theme park.

But to be clear - this isn't a reference of the ADA law itself - but of the DOJ Guidelines which are part of the Federal Register -- The 'implementation' portion spelled out by the DOJ and incorporated into law as part of the FR. The point being is the lack of inclusion in the ADA Guidelines written by the DOJ does not necessarily mean it's not part of the law; but that a specific implementation guidance has not yet been codified by the DOJ. The language of the ADA act itself are still in play, even if a situation is not covered by the ADA Guidelines. That's where we get to play with the case law rather than just the DOJ publication.

The premise of accommodation without the burden of proof of need comes from the ADA language itself - not from the DOJ's Accessibility Guide. So the three references you refer to really aren't that limiting, it just means there isn't nice clean agreed upon precedent to point to.