New Concept Art

[GoofGoof]

I'm not settling. It's my opinion and sorry most don't like it. I think in this case it's a lot of ridiculous whining about what you think it should look like versus what it does look like. I can't believe the reaction actually. Wow. What would be the point of being ****ed off that they aren't doing what we think they should? What does that accomplish? Why are you all so upset over this? Seriously? I'm not being smart but I don't appreciate being attacked at "settling" when I don't agree in this case. It's not settling for lower quality just because you personally believe it's not what you think it should be. Why does that invoke ire? It's the truth (about it being a shopping mall). Again, wow. It's complaining to complain in this case and you're all using the fact that we are settling as an argument. I'm not buying it. Not in this case.

I agree that there seems to be an over reaction to some things with this project. So far everything constructed looks top notch to me. Lots of attention to detail. Lots of unique restaurants utilizing the waterfront. The causeway, the landscaping and the overall high quality feel of the place make me think this is a lot better than just a mall. The Town Center section hasn't even started construction.

Since we don't have a full vendor list a lot of this is speculation on my part based on what info we do have. I think the main issue people have is that they want Disney Springs to be something that it is not. The new Disney Springs is going to be a combination of unique Disney style entertainment and shopping and generic stores. People want the entire area to be unique and original. That's not the plan. Part of the reason for this expansion is to keep tourists from leaving Disney property to shop at local outlet malls. DTD was pretty good for food and had some entertainment, but it was lacking in actual shopping. For me personally, shopping for clothing is something you do when you rip your shirt or "outgrow" your pants. It's not my idea of a fun activity on vacation, but for some people it is. This is designed to appeal to them. I will likely spend very little time in the Town Center section of Disney Springs, but I understand it serves a purpose for those that are looking for this type of shopping.

I don't think it's a lack of vision, a lack of ambition or anyone settling for anything. The goal of the Town Center section of Disney Springs is to provide on property access to a variety of stores found elsewhere in malls or shopping centers. It's what some guests want. It's not accurate to call Disney Springs "just a mall" but it may be accurate to call Town Center the "mall" section of Disney Springs. I am personally a lot more interested in The Landing and the sections that already existed. I'm happy to see they are doing a very nice job with designing those sections and making them a cool place to "hang out". The Town Center is going to primarily be a place to shop not a place to hang out.

 

[flynnibus]

Are you for or against Disney Springs? I'm not quite sure after reading this.

I think a shopping district of largely 3rd party shops is a downgrade for WDW. It's unclear what food/entertainment direction this place will head and how that stacks up... but photos showing a 'really nice looking town center' do not excite me one bit and are a letdown in terms of Disney's ambitions for it's world class resort.

If I wanted a unique shopping experience... I'd point to the shopping mall in the Venetian... a concept 25 years old but was an example of a mall that became something you wanted to experience in itself.

I honestly haven't seen anything about Disney Springs that excites me beyond Disney finally doing SOMETHING with the site.

The fact Disney needs to expand parking show help direct you to understand who Disney is targeting...

 

[BrianLo]

Has there ever been discussion of having a theater district, beyond just cirque, by Disney? Does that fill up usually?

I know they are doing Lion King In Shanghai, but I've not heard much about a similar offering at WDW? Disney certainly has the critical mass at this point to open up three theaters with only their own shows, or set aside one for some off Broadway tours to take residence and create a theater subscription package.

 

[mm121]

I'm not letting anyone off. I've had plenty of critiques of the story behind Disney Springs, namely that it is self negating and does not hold up well. Even then, you are significantly underestimated the destructive wave of urban renewal. Streets being replaced with plazas and historic structures being leveled is not out of the question. Such ideas also tend to not favor mixed use and therefore with a focus on shopping the result is a mall plopped into an urban core.


In its truest sense concept art is about projecting an emotion. It is not based on plans, but more ideas from which the plans are derived.

if the area was trully mixed use and urban renewal it would have to actually be urban,

buildings 1 story of actual usable space aren't urban, and by not creating upper floors in the town center is definitely a waste of valuable opportunity.

I agree that there seems to be an over reaction to some things with this project. So far everything constructed looks top notch to me. Lots of attention to detail. Lots of unique restaurants utilizing the waterfront. The causeway, the landscaping and the overall high quality feel of the place make me think this is a lot better than just a mall. The Town Center section hasn't even started construction.

Since we don't have a full vendor list a lot of this is speculation on my part based on what info we do have. I think the main issue people have is that they want Disney Springs to be something that it is not. The new Disney Springs is going to be a combination of unique Disney style entertainment and shopping and generic stores. People want the entire area to be unique and original. That's not the plan. Part of the reason for this expansion is to keep tourists from leaving Disney property to shop at local outlet malls. DTD was pretty good for food and had some entertainment, but it was lacking in actual shopping. For me personally, shopping for clothing is something you do when you rip your shirt or "outgrow" your pants. It's not my idea of a fun activity on vacation, but for some people it is. This is designed to appeal to them. I will likely spend very little time in the Town Center section of Disney Springs, but I understand it serves a purpose for those that are looking for this type of shopping.

I don't think it's a lack of vision, a lack of ambition or anyone settling for anything. The goal of the Town Center section of Disney Springs is to provide on property access to a variety of stores found elsewhere in malls or shopping centers. It's what some guests want. It's not accurate to call Disney Springs "just a mall" but it may be accurate to call Town Center the "mall" section of Disney Springs. I am personally a lot more interested in The Landing and the sections that already existed. I'm happy to see they are doing a very nice job with designing those sections and making them a cool place to "hang out". The Town Center is going to primarily be a place to shop not a place to hang out.

if the idea was to keep people on propery to trully shop, then they are missing the mark yet again, as the town center only has one level of stores, if the idea was to trully create a full shopping district this area could easily be 2 or 3 stories tall.

the first floor bring the unique concepts with the simple shopping you claim people want to see on the upper levels.

I think a shopping district of largely 3rd party shops is a downgrade for WDW. It's unclear what food/entertainment direction this place will head and how that stacks up... but photos showing a 'really nice looking town center' do not excite me one bit and are a letdown in terms of Disney's ambitions for it's world class resort.

If I wanted a unique shopping experience... I'd point to the shopping mall in the Venetian... a concept 25 years old but was an example of a mall that became something you wanted to experience in itself.

I honestly haven't seen anything about Disney Springs that excites me beyond Disney finally doing SOMETHING with the site.

The fact Disney needs to expand parking show help direct you to understand who Disney is targeting...

its definitely a downgrade, but a downgrade that would be acceptable if they were doing it right, they are not!

at least not as far as the town center section goes. with having simple 1 story buildings of usable space.
no hotel,
no additional entertainment.

rather than mall type building would of been great if they took the stores section and augmented it with historic buildings such as a converted firehouse or something. to trully match the story that its a town.

Has there ever been discussion of having a theater district, beyond just cirque, by Disney? Does that fill up usually?

I know they are doing Lion King In Shanghai, but I've not heard much about a similar offering at WDW? Disney certainly has the critical mass at this point to open up three theaters with only their own shows, or set aside one for some off Broadway tours to take residence and create a theater subscription package.

a west side expansion would be great, though I dont see it happening for a really long time or ever, especially when pleasure island was closed and abandoned and left to rot for over 5 years.

 

[GoofGoof]

if the area was trully mixed use and urban renewal it would have to actually be urban,

buildings 1 story of actual usable space aren't urban, and by not creating upper floors in the town center is definitely a waste of valuable opportunity.


if the idea was to keep people on propery to trully shop, then they are missing the mark yet again, as the town center only has one level of stores, if the idea was to trully create a full shopping district this area could easily be 2 or 3 stories tall.

the first floor bring the unique concepts with the simple shopping you claim people want to see on the upper levels.

Without having a complete list of vendors it's hard to say if they missed the mark. I'm sure they could have designed a multi-story mall but I'm not sure how having the stores all on ground level makes it less appealing.

I'm not claiming anything. Take a drive by any of the malls or outlet malls near WDW and see the lots full of cars. People like shopping. A large number of those people are in town visiting Disney. A lot of foreign tourists like to get stuff at an American outlet mall too. If Disney builds a "mall" with similar stores it's very likely some of those people will stay on property to shop. I'm not into shopping on vacation, but it's not just about what I want.

The unique part of Disney Springs comes in the Landing and and existing sections. Those areas are well done already and will provide me with entertainment and hopefully good food. I'm not sure why it takes anything away from those sections to have a shopping district with generic stores. Just do what I'm likely going to do and skip it.

 

[LL2WDW]

Take a drive by any of the malls or outlet malls near WDW and see the lots full of cars. People like shopping. A large number of those people are in town visiting Disney. A lot of foreign tourists like to get stuff at an American outlet mall too. If Disney builds a "mall" with similar stores it's very likely some of those people will stay on property to shop.

I very much agree. To many, many people, shopping is a big part of their vacation. So Disney saw that people left WDW to shop at stores not provided on property. DS brings this type of shopping experience to the vacationer. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this, and I certainly do not look at DS and 3rd party shopping as a downgrade.

Now trust, I hate shopping. I hate it so much! But I can fully appreciate how so, so many people will love DS. I would imagine that if I loved to shop, having a shopping/dining district that only sold Disney merchandise (or only Disney operated stores) would be not up to my expectations. I would want variety that Disney cannot provide.


Also...this argument about not utilizing second and third level shopping...that's really stretching to find fault.

 

[mm121]

I very much agree. To many, many people, shopping is a big part of their vacation. So Disney saw that people left WDW to shop at stores not provided on property. DS brings this type of shopping experience to the vacationer. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this, and I certainly do not look at DS and 3rd party shopping as a downgrade.

Now trust, I hate shopping. I hate it so much! But I can fully appreciate how so, so many people will love DS. I would imagine that if I loved to shop, having a shopping/dining district that only sold Disney merchandise (or only Disney operated stores) would be not up to my expectations. I would want variety that Disney cannot provide.


Also...this argument about not utilizing second and third level shopping...that's really stretching to find fault.

its not so much having multiple levels. this concept art is just drastically different than what was initially shown. and the idea of having multple levels would be more future forward thinking, as once its built its not like they can expand it on the first level anymore as it will be tottally hemed in by parking structures and bus stops.

and there will already be elevators/ escalators anyways to access the marketplace parking garage.

though it doesn't really look like a town either. so it really should be called something else other than the town center since its got nothing to do with being an actual town.

in most towns the town center would be where centerpiece holiday decorations would go along with a place to hold festivals town gatherings, along with social experiences such as dining, browsing, having a starbucks etc.

at least the previous renderings had some covered / possibly air conditioned spaces.

 

[Kman101]

I'm really tired and will address the other posts tomorrow, and more in depth, but I'm not calling the entire project "a shopping mall". I was calling the Town Center a shopping mall. I wanted to clarify that. And I completely get what Flynnibus is saying. I do. And I understand why you think I'd be "settling" but I see that they're doing nice things with the rest of the project and so I'm just not that upset over what they're doing with Town Center. I agree they could be more ambitious with it but I also don't think I'm settling because I don't have a problem with it, either. I understand why it's being called generic and I know Disney has set our expectations high but I think they're a bit too high for the Town Center. That's all. Again, really really tired at the moment so hopefully I'm making sense LOL

 

[NeXuS1000]

Ehrm, since when did leaked 3D renders suddenly become concept art?

It's clear that these renders, in the areas where we can already see finished work, do not represent the exact look and feel of the areas, but instead the overall technical approach. And for gods sake, they leaked, nothing officially released by Disney, which means they could be old and outdated and what not.

 

[roj2323]

I agree that there seems to be an over reaction to some things with this project. So far everything constructed looks top notch to me. Lots of attention to detail. Lots of unique restaurants utilizing the waterfront. The causeway, the landscaping and the overall high quality feel of the place make me think this is a lot better than just a mall. The Town Center section hasn't even started construction.

Since we don't have a full vendor list a lot of this is speculation on my part based on what info we do have. I think the main issue people have is that they want Disney Springs to be something that it is not. The new Disney Springs is going to be a combination of unique Disney style entertainment and shopping and generic stores. People want the entire area to be unique and original. That's not the plan. Part of the reason for this expansion is to keep tourists from leaving Disney property to shop at local outlet malls. DTD was pretty good for food and had some entertainment, but it was lacking in actual shopping. For me personally, shopping for clothing is something you do when you rip your shirt or "outgrow" your pants. It's not my idea of a fun activity on vacation, but for some people it is. This is designed to appeal to them. I will likely spend very little time in the Town Center section of Disney Springs, but I understand it serves a purpose for those that are looking for this type of shopping.

I don't think it's a lack of vision, a lack of ambition or anyone settling for anything. The goal of the Town Center section of Disney Springs is to provide on property access to a variety of stores found elsewhere in malls or shopping centers. It's what some guests want. It's not accurate to call Disney Springs "just a mall" but it may be accurate to call Town Center the "mall" section of Disney Springs. I am personally a lot more interested in The Landing and the sections that already existed. I'm happy to see they are doing a very nice job with designing those sections and making them a cool place to "hang out". The Town Center is going to primarily be a place to shop not a place to hang out.

Very well said.

I wanted to add that a large reason for this "shopping mall" portion of Disney Springs is Foreign tourists. Walt Disney World is the most popular or in the top 10 locations in the United states for foreign tourists and none of them have cars. Right now a large portion of the foreign tour groups are hiring busses to go to Florida mall or other area malls and it makes sense that if disney builds a shopping destination on property all of those sales (lots of electronics and clothing) would be made on property rather than 35 minutes down the road. This mall may be tacky for locals but the foreign tourists are going to make the place thrive.

All that said, as a local it will be nice to not have to drive so far to purchase my Apple products and perhaps cast members will get a discount at most if not all of the stores as well so that will be a nice perk for them.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I very much agree. To many, many people, shopping is a big part of their vacation. So Disney saw that people left WDW to shop at stores not provided on property. DS brings this type of shopping experience to the vacationer. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this, and I certainly do not look at DS and 3rd party shopping as a downgrade.

Keeping people on property can be done by doing more than just offering the same.

 

[Jon81uk]

Very well said.

I wanted to add that a large reason for this "shopping mall" portion of Disney Springs is Foreign tourists. Walt Disney World is the most popular or in the top 10 locations in the United states for foreign tourists and none of them have cars. Right now a large portion of the foreign tour groups are hiring busses to go to Florida mall or other area malls and it makes sense that if disney builds a shopping destination on property all of those sales (lots of electronics and clothing) would be made on property rather than 35 minutes down the road. This mall may be tacky for locals but the foreign tourists are going to make the place thrive.

As a foreign (British) tourist, I never really got the point of the DTD Marketplace, I just don't want that much Disney stuff. But a wider selection of stores that I can't find in the UK would make me want to shop at The Town Center area of Disney Springs. Although it looks like some of the rumoured brands are UK stores (Superdry, Topman etc) that aren't common in USA, so a mix of brands that are new to the majority of USA guests and established American brands (American Eagle, Abercrombie etc) that the international guests will go to.

Having said all that I would still go off-property to go outlet shopping (got 2 pairs Converse Chucks for $30 last time, bargain!). But I want Disney Springs to sell more than just Disney merchandise and offer more than just dining.

 

[CDavid]

But I want Disney Springs to sell more than just Disney merchandise and offer more than just dining.

Years ago, the Marketplace (Walt Disney World Village) did offer just that - yet the shops and restaurants were operated by Disney. My father once bought a pair of shoes for work from Sir Edwards Haberdasher; Mom still has a nice set of drinking glasses from another Village shop.

 

[Ignohippo]

concept artists dont just make things up, they work off of a base set of plans and talk to the client to find out what the ultimate vision is.

and removing access to the top destroys the whole story behind the train tracks

No, but the artist could have misunderstood that the top portion wasn't going to be utilized. I completely agree that they SHOULD utilize the top layer, but that doesn't mean it was ever part of the plan and it does seem to contradict why they were creating the highline in the first place (which was to give shade).

 

[LL2WDW]

Years ago, the Marketplace (Walt Disney World Village) did offer just that - yet the shops and restaurants were operated by Disney. My father once bought a pair of shoes for work from Sir Edwards Haberdasher; Mom still has a nice set of drinking glasses from another Village shop.

Very true. However the Village Marketplace had perhaps a dozen stores? Compared to over 100 in DS? Walt Disney had 3rd party vendors in Disneyland; why is it now a bad idea in today's world? Or is it just that they won't be operated by Disney?

Keeping people on property can be done by doing more than just offering the same.

Not if what you want (shopping) is off property. If people want to shop name brand stores while on vacation (many of which might not be available near their home states or countries), then why shouldn't DS include these brands?

I realize I'm coming off as a Disney purist right now...I just don't understand the disappointment. The Town Center looks absolutely nothing like any type of shopping center anywhere near where I grew up (northern Wisconsin). To many, many people this will be a completely unique experience.

 

[Ignohippo]

I agree that there seems to be an over reaction to some things with this project. So far everything constructed looks top notch to me. Lots of attention to detail. Lots of unique restaurants utilizing the waterfront. The causeway, the landscaping and the overall high quality feel of the place make me think this is a lot better than just a mall. The Town Center section hasn't even started construction.

Since we don't have a full vendor list a lot of this is speculation on my part based on what info we do have. I think the main issue people have is that they want Disney Springs to be something that it is not. The new Disney Springs is going to be a combination of unique Disney style entertainment and shopping and generic stores. People want the entire area to be unique and original. That's not the plan. Part of the reason for this expansion is to keep tourists from leaving Disney property to shop at local outlet malls. DTD was pretty good for food and had some entertainment, but it was lacking in actual shopping. For me personally, shopping for clothing is something you do when you rip your shirt or "outgrow" your pants. It's not my idea of a fun activity on vacation, but for some people it is. This is designed to appeal to them. I will likely spend very little time in the Town Center section of Disney Springs, but I understand it serves a purpose for those that are looking for this type of shopping.

I don't think it's a lack of vision, a lack of ambition or anyone settling for anything. The goal of the Town Center section of Disney Springs is to provide on property access to a variety of stores found elsewhere in malls or shopping centers. It's what some guests want. It's not accurate to call Disney Springs "just a mall" but it may be accurate to call Town Center the "mall" section of Disney Springs. I am personally a lot more interested in The Landing and the sections that already existed. I'm happy to see they are doing a very nice job with designing those sections and making them a cool place to "hang out". The Town Center is going to primarily be a place to shop not a place to hang out.

Exactly but there's no reason it couldn't be themed and unique as well (as Pleasure Island and much of the existing DTD was). It is still part of Disney World after all.

It's just another thing that could be used to make the argument of spending the money to take a trip to Disney World rather than just staying home. It's about creating a place that's different from anything you could find anywhere else. The more that goes away, the less likely people are to visit Disney World.

 

[Ignohippo]

its not so much having multiple levels. this concept art is just drastically different than what was initially shown. and the idea of having multple levels would be more future forward thinking, as once its built its not like they can expand it on the first level anymore as it will be tottally hemed in by parking structures and bus stops.

and there will already be elevators/ escalators anyways to access the marketplace parking garage.

though it doesn't really look like a town either. so it really should be called something else other than the town center since its got nothing to do with being an actual town.

in most towns the town center would be where centerpiece holiday decorations would go along with a place to hold festivals town gatherings, along with social experiences such as dining, browsing, having a starbucks etc.

at least the previous renderings had some covered / possibly air conditioned spaces.

These are just 2 or 3 of the buildings of the expansion and I don't believe they are going away. The new renderings show more of the Springs area than these buildings (which will be going near the new parking structure yet to be built).

 

[Ignohippo]

Has there ever been discussion of having a theater district, beyond just cirque, by Disney? Does that fill up usually?

I know they are doing Lion King In Shanghai, but I've not heard much about a similar offering at WDW? Disney certainly has the critical mass at this point to open up three theaters with only their own shows, or set aside one for some off Broadway tours to take residence and create a theater subscription package.

That is a GREAT idea.

 

[Ignohippo]

if the area was trully mixed use and urban renewal it would have to actually be urban,

buildings 1 story of actual usable space aren't urban, and by not creating upper floors in the town center is definitely a waste of valuable opportunity.


if the idea was to keep people on propery to trully shop, then they are missing the mark yet again, as the town center only has one level of stores, if the idea was to trully create a full shopping district this area could easily be 2 or 3 stories tall.

the first floor bring the unique concepts with the simple shopping you claim people want to see on the upper levels.


its definitely a downgrade, but a downgrade that would be acceptable if they were doing it right, they are not!

at least not as far as the town center section goes. with having simple 1 story buildings of usable space.
no hotel,
no additional entertainment.

rather than mall type building would of been great if they took the stores section and augmented it with historic buildings such as a converted firehouse or something. to trully match the story that its a town.


a west side expansion would be great, though I dont see it happening for a really long time or ever, especially when pleasure island was closed and abandoned and left to rot for over 5 years.

I'm sorry, but you're WAY too wrapped up on the "town" concept. It's just the name and something a story an imagineer came up with in (probably) an afternoon when some suit gave them the project to try to come up with a Disney-style concept to placate the fanbois. You're reading entirely too much into it.

The idea of utilizing the upper stories is completely silly as well. No one is going to want to walk a flight of stairs or wait for an elevator to shop. The old mall design is even dead. People want things on one floor where they can get on and get out. There was even a plan for turning the old Virgin site into an indoor mall but it was decided that plan was too risky because they were afraid people wouldn't want to come in and explore.

 

[Ignohippo]

I'm not settling. It's my opinion and sorry most don't like it. I think in this case it's a lot of ridiculous whining about what you think it should look like versus what it does look like. I can't believe the reaction actually. Wow. What would be the point of being ****ed off that they aren't doing what we think they should? What does that accomplish? Why are you all so upset over this? Seriously? I'm not being smart but I don't appreciate being attacked at "settling" when I don't agree in this case. It's not settling for lower quality just because you personally believe it's not what you think it should be. Why does that invoke ire? It's the truth (about it being a shopping mall). Again, wow. It's complaining to complain in this case and you're all using the fact that we are settling as an argument. I'm not buying it. Not in this case.

Easy, because this is Disney World. Just because they're build a "mall" doesn't mean it can't be special or unique.

It's just another opportunity they're losing by not going the extra step and making Disney Springs something truly exciting and unique. The more they make things the same as something you could find at home, the less likely people are to spend the money to take a Disney vacation.

I've always loved Downtown Disney and the idea of a shopping district at WDW. Why not use it as a selling point and a draw, rather than just plopping a mall on property just to keep foreign tourists from spending their money elsewhere?

City Walk at Uni is a perfect example. It looks nothing like anything you'd find at home and has amazing atmosphere. It's part of the draw to staying at a Uni hotel and is another fantastic part of the Universal experience.

Disney Springs doesn't look to be any more of a draw to the Disney vacation than the Premier Outlets across I-4 (besides location).