New Be Our Guest lunch line procedure (Test?)

[flynnibus]

You're not making much sense. Perhaps you should take a break:

I guess it does sound rather absurd that anyone would look up to you. Sarcasm should include at least a thread of believable.

 

[jakeman]

I guess it does sound rather absurd that anyone would look up to you. Sarcasm should include at least a thread of believable.

Adulation from a message board is pretty low on my priority list of life accomplishments. It is one of my many flaws.

 

[BrianV]

Trying to suggest the new system is better is not even in the realm of acceptable...

Then there can be no debate, or at least no reason for one. If you have decided that the new system is inherently worse than the old one, what is there to discuss? You and others have drawn a line in the sand.

 

[flynnibus]

Then there can be no debate, or at least no reason for one.

If it's so great... Where are the flood of copycats? Why isn't dining both on and off property copying the model?

Where are the flood of random posters here and elsewhere singing how great it is?

Where is the line up of posters praising how great it is to have to eat at a fixed time while at Disney?

ADRs themselves are disgusted... And this model here is the worst of both worlds. Lack of flexibility and lack of advance awareness of success.

 

[BrianV]

If it's so great... Where are the flood of copycats? Why isn't dining both on and off property copying the model?

Where are the flood of random posters here and elsewhere singing how great it is?

Where is the line up of posters praising how great it is to have to eat at a fixed time while at Disney?

ADRs themselves are disgusted... And this model here is the worst of both worlds. Lack of flexibility and lack of advance awareness of success.

Thank you for making my point.

 

[flynnibus]

Thank you for making my point.

Hold on.. I need to channel @jakeman




I am not locked in my belief. Convince me. The problem is you have nothing to support your position so all I see is a post proving a point that you have nothing to actually support your belief. A belief that everything else flies in the face of.. even outside this thread. Sounds to me like you have the sides flipped.

I really feel for those CMs that have to sit out there for hours and turn guest after guest away.. explaining to them 'sorry, early bird gets the worm! But please try our alternatives like Cosmic Rays!'

 

[BrianV]

If it's so great... Where are the flood of copycats? Why isn't dining both on and off property copying the model?

Where are the flood of random posters here and elsewhere singing how great it is?

Where is the line up of posters praising how great it is to have to eat at a fixed time while at Disney?

ADRs themselves are disgusted... And this model here is the worst of both worlds. Lack of flexibility and lack of advance awareness of success.

How many on and off site restaurants have similar demand with similrly constrained hours?

Since when is the number of posters on a topic equal determine whether something is correct? Argue on the merits of the issue.

I'll ask a few additional questions:

Should bog be first come first serve?

If everyone who wanted to eat at bog stood in line instead of passing on dining there due to the wait, what would the queue length look like?

If the above scenario took place, would you rather have an actual three hour wait or a virtual one?

If the line is 4 hours long and it is 1 pm, is is reasonable to cut off the line at some point when it reaches into dinner hours?

How is this different from a return pass system?

 

[BrianV]

Hold on.. I need to channel @jakeman




I am not locked in my belief. Convince me. The problem is you have nothing to support your position so all I see is a post proving a point that you have nothing to actually support your belief. A belief that everything else flies in the face of.. even outside this thread. Sounds to me like you have the sides flipped.

I really feel for those CMs that have to sit out there for hours and turn guest after guest away.. explaining to them 'sorry, early bird gets the worm! But please try our alternatives like Cosmic Rays!'

I did many pages back. I was told by some that there is no way it can possible be a good system. For me it is. Here is why (again):

I'll never wait on a 1+ hour line for a restaurant. If there is an hour line I'm shut out. I'm not eating there. Might as well be a big "we're closed" sign.

If there is a return pass system, it is possible I'll get one and be able to eat there. If I don't get a return pass, my situation is no worse than in scenario 1...I'm still not eating there.

To the line averse, the new system is no worse than the old one and in some scenarios, quite a bit better.

Now, I'm told over and over that I'm wrong, stupid, an insider, unwilling to listen, etc. tell me why my logic for me is wrong?

 

[flynnibus]

How many on and off site restaurants have similar demand with similrly constrained hours?

I'm sorry, you are now suggesting 'lunch hours' is some new unique thing that makes BoG special? Surely you are joking?

Since when is the number of posters on a topic equal determine whether something is correct? Argue on the merits of the issue.

It's called a SAMPLE - and one of the most popular WDW websites on the planet is a good start. Feel free to browse the entire internet and find some clips to prove otherwise. Until then, yup, you can't find the swarm of praise of this.

I'll ask a few additional questions:

Should bog be first come first serve?

If everyone who wanted to eat at bog stood in line instead of passing on dining there due to the wait, what would the queue length look like?

There is this concept called a feedback loop. In lines, it works to regulate the wait. It is powerful because it allows each person to make their own decision, and the line regulates itself vs demand.

Second, not everyone shows up to eat at the same time - another self regulating portion of the line that people condition themselves to work within. People know if they wait a bit longer, they can avoid the lunch rush, etc.

What you also gloss over is the idea of an open line is it widen's the window of opportunity. So instead of just people who are there in a 30min window having the option to chose to eat at BoG or not... a wider range of guests over a multiple hour window get to make that decision or not.

If the above scenario took place, would you rather have an actual three hour wait or a virtual one?

The virtual wait on it's own is not a bad idea - the problem is it doesn't work on its own. It sacrafices too many other things. If they simply handed out passes for those that wanted to return later with a minimized wait... people would be less upset. The problem is that's not what they've done - instead they've eliminated choice, pushed more of their guests into a longer wait (virtual or not), and again added the requirement of planning and constraints to something that everywhere else people can do without.

If the line is 4 hours long and it is 1 pm, is is reasonable to cut off the line at some point when it reaches into dinner hours?

Sure - and that's what they did prior. But your justification ignores the key points that it consolidates all availability into a small window, eliminates choice, and doesn't actually do anything to improve efficiency for the resturant or the guests. The only thing it does is keeps people from queuing up. You cherry pick elements and avoid using them in the system as a whole.

How is this different from a return pass system?

Which system if you want to be specific?

Which counter service resturants do you know rely on and guests praise a return pass system for? Again.. not constrained to Disney... show us where this is preferred?

 

[BrianV]

I'm sorry, you are now suggesting 'lunch hours' is some new unique thing that makes BoG special? Surely you are joking?



It's called a SAMPLE - and one of the most popular WDW websites on the planet is a good start. Feel free to browse the entire internet and find some clips to prove otherwise. Until then, yup, you can't find the swarm of praise of this.



There is this concept called a feedback loop. In lines, it works to regulate the wait. It is powerful because it allows each person to make their own decision, and the line regulates itself vs demand.

Second, not everyone shows up to eat at the same time - another self regulating portion of the line that people condition themselves to work within. People know if they wait a bit longer, they can avoid the lunch rush, etc.

What you also gloss over is the idea of an open line is it widen's the window of opportunity. So instead of just people who are there in a 30min window having the option to chose to eat at BoG or not... a wider range of guests over a multiple hour window get to make that decision or not.



The virtual wait on it's own is not a bad idea - the problem is it doesn't work on its own. It sacrafices too many other things. If they simply handed out passes for those that wanted to return later with a minimized wait... people would be less upset. The problem is that's not what they've done - instead they've eliminated choice, pushed more of their guests into a longer wait (virtual or not), and again added the requirement of planning and constraints to something that everywhere else people can do without.



Sure - and that's what they did prior. But your justification ignores the key points that it consolidates all availability into a small window, eliminates choice, and doesn't actually do anything to improve efficiency for the resturant or the guests. The only thing it does is keeps people from queuing up. You cherry pick elements and avoid using them in the system as a whole.



Which system if you want to be specific?

Which counter service resturants do you know rely on and guests praise a return pass system for? Again.. not constrained to Disney... show us where this is preferred?

So name a restaurant in disney or elsewhere with similar lines/demand and similarly constrained hours...

It was established several posts above that finding clips on use internet is useless. If they like it they are all just shills with pixie dust...unless they are here and oppose this new system.

Feedback loops are fine, but they lock out people too. For everyone blocked out because the restaurant reached capacity in the new system, there is someone in the old system blocked out because the line was too long. I won't claim that one patron is more valuable than the other, but I am one of the latter patrons, so it is better for me and people like me.

And I'll disagree. It is absolutely a virtual line. When standing in line, you don't get a choice for how slow or fast the line will move. And in a virtual line you don't either.

See, I said we can all argue this until we are blue. You and some HATE it and no matter what I say, you'll disagree. So why bother?

 

[flynnibus]

Now, I'm told over and over that I'm wrong, stupid, an insider, unwilling to listen, etc. tell me why my logic for me is wrong?

You skipped over the part about having to be there ahead of time to make that decision.

You lose the fact that everyone else is making those same kinds of decisions - so while the line may be an hour right now, the line may adapt down because of that same flexibility others may chose to pass over as well.

You lose the possibility that you might walk up and find a lesser line than the max wait.

You've narrowed the possibility that the ONLY way you can eat there is if you are there at the distribution time.

While the return time sounds convenient if you were there, and are willing to eat when you are told... you are ignoring the other cases that are inferior.

So sure.. if you want to focus on "Hey, 1 out of 5 ain't bad as long as I'm the 1" - ok. But I know I'm looking at it holistically and not just from the situation where the moons align for me.

If they really wanted to just give people a virtual queue so they didn't have to wait in line.. they have a model to do that already. They could have allocated some of their capacity to deferred seating.. instead they chose to use that for all of their seating.

 

[flynnibus]

It was established several posts above that finding clips on use internet is useless. If they like it they are all just shills with pixie dust...unless they are here and oppose this new system.

So instead of finding credible stories.. you don't try at all. How convenient.

Feedback loops are fine, but they lock out people too. For everyone blocked out because the restaurant reached capacity in the new system, there is someone in the old system blocked out because the line was too long. I won't claim that one patron is more valuable than the other, but I am one of the latter patrons, so it is better for me and people like me.

I won't bother anymore because you can't seem to grasp the core concepts of things being a function of time.

Feel free to come back later and share with us your great experiences dedicating time to get a meal ticket.

 

[BrianV]

So instead of finding credible stories.. you don't try at all. How convenient.



I won't bother anymore because you can't seem to grasp the core concepts of things being a function of time.

Feel free to come back later and share with us your great experiences dedicating time to get a meal ticket.

Like I said, arguing is pointless because you are too entrenched in your opinion. Again, you've made my point.

I have no need for you to come back later since you make zero effort to understand my point of view.

 

[flynnibus]

Also lost on this thread is... most of the time the distributed nature of people eating meant most of the time waits for BoG were under an hour.. most having success of 20-30min waits if you avoided the worst peak times.

Now.. you hear stories of people waiting 30mins AHEAD of time to ensure they get a ticket to come back later

And because you've given out all your capacity very quickly in a short period of time.. now many people wait longer than if they just had the ability to get in line. Instead of getting a 20min wait at 1:30 because the lunch peak is over... someone had to wait from 11ish to 1:30 for their return time.

The system hands out all the capacity in a condensed window - ensuring waits are required.. instead of waits are dependent on the demand at the time.

The old model has inherent distributed demand... the new model does not.

 

[flynnibus]

Like I said, arguing is pointless because you are too entrenched in your opinion. Again, you've made my point.

The only point you've made is whenever someone supports their belief with reasonable points.. you can't counter them or do the same. You do the 'nah nah I can't hear you' dance and just claim everyone is entrenched with their opinion.

What you think is 'entrenched' is people actually posting things to SUPPORT an opinion - you haven't done so. Instead making comments like the fact BoG lunch has restricted hours makes it special or something..

 

[BrianV]

The only point you've made is whenever someone supports their belief with reasonable points.. you can't counter them or do the same. You do the 'nah nah I can't hear you' dance and just claim everyone is entrenched with their opinion.

What you think is 'entrenched' is people actually posting things to SUPPORT an opinion - you haven't done so. Instead making comments like the fact BoG lunch has restricted hours makes it special or something..

I gave plenty of reasonable points. You simply claim they are unreasonable. Would you like me to write them again?

 

[CDavid]

If everyone who wanted to eat at bog stood in line instead of passing on dining there due to the wait, what would the queue length look like?

I was prepared to respond, but @flynnibus already explained better than I could. By your own admission, you're not waiting in a long queue, and you will hardly be the only one who passes on Be Our Guest for that reason. The queue is literally self regulating - you don't need a policy to enforce shorter lines. The critical difference is that its then your choice not to dine there; You aren't told you can't because all slots are taken.

I won't claim that one patron is more valuable than the other, but I am one of the latter patrons, so it is better for me and people like me.

It's perfectly fine that you like the 'return card' system better, and that it works better for you. But that's just your opinion. In appraising the worth of a virtual queue versus a standard line it must be examined objectively. Again, even really 'bad' ideas are usually favored by somebody.

And I'll disagree. It is absolutely a virtual line. When standing in line, you don't get a choice for how slow or fast the line will move. And in a virtual line you don't either.

You are free to refer to it as a virtual line, but it effectively functions as a dining reservation. You are given a time when to return, like an ADR, rather than being served when you reach the front of the (virtual or actual) 'line', whenever that may be. If the 'virtual line' moves unusually quick (such as people exiting a queue/not returning) you won't be served earlier with the current 'reservation' system, whereas you might be if it actually functioned more as a virtual queue.

 

[BrianV]

I was prepared to respond, but @flynnibus already explained better than I could. By your own admission, you're not waiting in a long queue, and you will hardly be the only one who passes on Be Our Guest for that reason. The queue is literally self regulating - you don't need a policy to enforce shorter lines. The critical difference is that its then your choice not to dine there; You aren't told you can't because all slots are taken.



It's perfectly fine that you like the 'return card' system better, and that it works better for you. But that's just your opinion. In appraising the worth of a virtual queue versus a standard line it must be examined objectively. Again, even really 'bad' ideas are usually favored by somebody.



You are free to refer to it as a virtual line, but it effectively functions as a dining reservation. You are given a time when to return, like an ADR, rather than being served when you reach the front of the (virtual or actual) 'line', whenever that may be. If the 'virtual line' moves unusually quick (such as people exiting a queue/not returning) you won't be served earlier with the current 'reservation' system, whereas you might be if it actually functioned more as a virtual queue.

All your points are valid. And I agree with you mostly. The return card system works better for me and people like me. Poorer for people like you. That's all. Not complicated.

 

[BrianV]

I was prepared to respond, but @flynnibus already explained better than I could. By your own admission, you're not waiting in a long queue, and you will hardly be the only one who passes on Be Our Guest for that reason. The queue is literally self regulating - you don't need a policy to enforce shorter lines. The critical difference is that its then your choice not to dine there; You aren't told you can't because all slots are taken.



It's perfectly fine that you like the 'return card' system better, and that it works better for you. But that's just your opinion. In appraising the worth of a virtual queue versus a standard line it must be examined objectively. Again, even really 'bad' ideas are usually favored by somebody.



You are free to refer to it as a virtual line, but it effectively functions as a dining reservation. You are given a time when to return, like an ADR, rather than being served when you reach the front of the (virtual or actual) 'line', whenever that may be. If the 'virtual line' moves unusually quick (such as people exiting a queue/not returning) you won't be served earlier with the current 'reservation' system, whereas you might be if it actually functioned more as a virtual queue.

And I see your point on the virtual queue versus a return line. It is subtle, but a good point. If they assess the crowds correctly, they should be equal. If they do poorly, then it will be off.

 

[flynnibus]

I gave plenty of reasonable point. You simply claim they are unreasonable. Would you like me to write them again?

All I've seen is you like the idea of getting a return time vs waiting.

Yet you have failed to acknowledge the return time is only available at a time you wouldn't have been there to start with. You also fail to acknowledge that your return time may result in a longer delay vs just waiting.

You demonstrate what would be labeled as 'selective hearing'. You pick and chose what you want to want to face. You can be happy as you want in your bubble - but your happiness does not invalidate the concerns raised by others. So no, you haven't countered any of the concerns, just said "I don't care - it works for me" and then can't understand why people aren't falling in line with your belief.

People aren't falling in line with you because you've not presented any defendable point except you think a virtual line is better than waiting in line.

And what about in the future when the return tickets become even harder to get? The more the common guests understand this is the only way to get BoG lunch... more people will get there earlier, and be willing to line up to get them. And since the system lacks any distribution to spread out availability, the system will converge at the point the only way to get in will be there to queue up before they start handing out tickets.