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My live update thread!
- Thread starter Figment632
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EPCOT Explorer
New Member
Ok...The what the heck is DHS!? Is it Hollywood? Is it Entertainment?
Hollywood is in the name...That's a big indication.
Ummm....General entertainment? Yes, because AI works so well with TSMM, and they work so well with ST and GMR.:shrug: There is no common link.
To me, it's a mishmosh park....All Entertainment, All the Time. Being the entertainment? How's that work in GMR? In ST? In BatB? It works for TSMM and for AI, but what else?
I am beginning to think that your attachment to the place is allowing you to look past these flaws. I certainly can not do that.
Now, as for missing the point...Umm....What's that? How am I missing the point? I'm trying to find the point in this park.
Right now, it has one, but it's hidden. Help me find it.:wave:
EpcotServo
Well-Known Member
I already answered EVERY one of those questions.
Even though I described how every major and minor attractions can bridge back to that core theme, I excluded a few to save time, but alright let me make this as simple a templete as possible, one that can be applied to all the parks:
THE THEME:
Taking center stage, and being part of the action of all kinds of entertainment.
The Backdrop:
The bridge between the THEME and the ATTRACTIONS. When thinking of the theme, said above^, two backdrops come to mind. The Hollywood that never was, but will always be, that Fantasy roaring 20's of Hollywood that we all wish was real and always was. The next thing that comes to mind, is Studios. We all have that dream of being on a bustling studio, that environment of action and chaos.
Just as Future World and World Showcase are placed to transition the big change that EPCOT has midway in it's theme, the placement also serves to help create a flow in the Guest's day. The park starts, on Hollywood Blvd. (Hat excluded, Imagineering will be the first to tell you it doesn't belong.) with that Hollywood that never was, and continues to the big major attractions with Sunset Blvd. An apt tribute to a time and an era of Hollywood. When finished with the major attractions, eventually you'll find the theme shifting. As you work your way BACK into the park, as just in the movies, you see more and more that it takes a working studio to make this all happen. The reason it seems haphazard to you is A: Unlike most parks, the distinction was made NOT to spilt it up into "MovieLand" and "Studioland" on purpose, because like in Hollywood, the distinction between real and entertainment become pretty blended. Hence why they call Hollywood "The Magic Store." These are the backdrops from where you build the attractions.
THE ATTRACTIONS
[Explained to you from the route of Theme to Attractions, skipping the bridge of the backdrop.]
TOWER OF TERROR
Twilight Zone is a worldwide classic, and at Tower of Terror, you get to be the "Guest Star" of a very unusual and chilling story.
ROCK N ROLLER COASTER starring Aerosmith
When one thinks of Entertainment, music is a big part. Especially Rock N Roll. But unlike other theme parks (Walt Disney Studios Paris) our Rock N Roller Coaster gets the chance to explore another famous aspect of entertainment, the Hollywood Rock Scene. Giving US the unbelievable experience of not only meeting a famous Rock Band, but getting Backstage Passes and a speedy trip down the L.A. Freeways to get to the concert! An experience which, because of this, feels less like a normal commute on a freeway, but a Roller Coaster. A Rock N' Roller Coaster!
Beauty and the Beast! Live on Stage
Brings to life the Theatrical element of entertainment. The live shows on stage and theater are a big part of taking center stage, and here you get to be in the middle of a grand presentation of a classic Disney story. This aspect of the theme is also explored in VOYAGE OF THE LITTLE MERMAID
Fantasmic!
The nightly spectacle to end the day, an all encompassing night time show to cap off the night, I.E. Illuminations, or Wishes.
Playhouse Disney Live!
Giving children a chance to play along with their friends from the Television.
The Magic of Disney Animation
Animation is a worldwide commonality, and has been the means of telling some of the most spectacular stories ever told. Instead of telling you how they do it, you actually get to SEE them do it. See the Animators working themselves, and even try your hand at drawing a Disney character! {Personal Note: This element needs to be explored much further and better than it is now. Needs work, the cannibalized DCA screens aren't workin' if you ask me./AnimationFan}
One Man's Dream
An aside from the theme, to take a look at the life of one such entertainer, Walt Disney.
Journey into Narnia
Gives a look at the experience of Hollywood Set Design, by exploring sets and props firsthand.
Great Movie Ride
Best encapsulates the theme. Instead of just talking about classic movies, they tell you about them AS YOU RIDE RIGHT THROUGH the middle of them! It gives you quite a remarkable feeling, as if you were there on those grand sets as they filmed motion picture classics.
The American Idol Experience
Set as one of the attractions that help transition between the Glitzy star studded "Front" of the park, to the modern working day Studio "Back" of the park. As mentioned, faults aside, definitely allows guests and spectators to take center stage.
Sounds Dangerous!
The people who make the sounds of film and TV aren't very well known, and this theater is designed to give guests a look at just how important sound is, by putting you in the middle of it.
Indiana Jones: Epic Stunt Spectacular
Who hasn't dreamed of being the one punching the Nazi's? By eliminating the screen that separates you and the action, you get an actual feeling for what's it like for the stuntmen and women, who throw punches for a living.
STAR TOURS
One of the tools used to help you take center stage is by quite literally putting you in the middle of it. Everyone who sat in a theater and watched X-Wings dive into that trench, just wanted to BE THERE. To FEEL THAT. And by taking down the walls and putting you in, by all appearances, a real star ship, for a few brief seconds it's not that hard to pretend you're Luke Skywalker.
TOY STORY MIDWAY MANIA
One thing that most of the attractions share in order to carry at the theme of the park, helps you feel that you're the center of the action, is by putting characters you know and love from entertainment, right next to you. You aren't just watching toys come to life, you ARE a toy. You ARE in Andy's Toybox, and you DO get to play right alongside them.
MUPPET VISION 3-D
Takes the Muppets off the screen, and into the theater.
LIGHTS, MOTORS, ACTION!
As you work your way back into the park, the lines between screen and reality are extremely blurred. On the backlot, don't let the simple metal structures fool you. Turn a corner, and you get to be a part of a thrilling Car chase-Just like a movie, tearing through a small village. Is it just me, or does That fruit cart looks a lot a less sturdy on screen? And that car sure looks a whole lot closer...
BACKLOT TOUR
Now that you've reached the literal and proverbial back of the park, you get an all-access tour of, to all appearances, a real working Studio.
There you go. EVERY attraction, quite easily can be linked back to the core theme of Being entertainment and taking center stage. And as you work your way back towards the front of the park, once again the backdrop fades, and once again the fake backdrops begin to look more and more like a lost golden age of Hollywood. Like I said, as in ALL the Disney Parks, all of these notably different attractions all tie back to that core theme. The Backdrop connects it.
The Bridge:
THEME>BACKDROP>EXPERIENCE>STORY>DETAIL
You can trace every one of those steps in the bridge at EVERY Disney Park. I'm not making things up because I love Studios. I love all the parks equally, and can gladly tell you the place in the bridge and how it works for every attraction, backdrop, experience, or park.
What is it?
It's the same as Future World and World Showcase being a "Community", when it really isn't.
It's the same as an Animal Kingdom, or even a Magic Kingdom.
It is what it is: The Studios.
Theme Parks aren't formed by names. They're formed by what they ARE. And it's clear to see there's more to it, just like every Disney Park, than what meets the eye. And nobody can help you find it. You have to discover it.
The reason I get defensive isn't because I like it more, it's because it's being treated separately, when it isn't. Not at heart, and not in practice. And this treatment isn't coming from Experience, it's coming from ignorance.
But why I feel like I have to go in detail the basics of theme parks, basics that are explained to every Cast Member before they work that park is beyond me. I ain't making this stuff up guys.
:dazzle:
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
Servo, I appreciate the thought and time you put into this, but if you have to explain it THIS much...something is wrong with the park. It should be clear cut. It should be consise!
I just see a mish mosh of attractions and experiences lumped together...at random. Not something fit for Disney.
Even with all the EPCOT angst there is, you can still see that it is a park of the Future and of the World Cultures.
MGM is NOT clear cut....I think that's the problem.
EpcotServo
Well-Known Member
But Epcot ISN'T just a park "about the Future and of World Cultures", you know better than that! It's about MUCH, MUCH more!
You know as well as I, that if you CAN'T talk that much about a Disney Park, something's wrong.
And trust me, if I were to write about Animal Kingdom or Epcot, It'd be Much, Much, MUCH longer as well.
:lol:
SirGoofy
Member
Heck I could write something that long about the Jungle Cruise...
TalkingHead
Well-Known Member
Some people might say if you CAN, something's wrong. Maybe we should just say it's a park for TV and movies, and get on with our lives.
EpcotServo
Well-Known Member
That's why I'm not a fan of "Some People." Heck, I'm in a good mood so let's make it "Most People".
:lookaroun :lol:
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
*siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*:brick::ROFLOL:
Travis, you are putting me through the ringer!:fork::lol:
I KNOW that it's much more than that. I KNOW that there is supposed to be a whole long explanation for every park, and there is! (especially for EPCOT!)
But when it comes to MGM and the average guest....There has to be a quick, clear cut explanation. Something that resonates with the guest and plots there journey through the park. MK's is the classic Disney adventure as depicted in different genres....Space, Adventure, Fantasy... EPCOT, like I said is Futurism, and Culture.
Now....MGM. You have a beautiful explanation of how it's a city, how it allows you to become the entertainment. I AGREE with this. I like it. I want it to be true.
But, is it?
No. It's YOUR perception of the park, and one that is ONLY constituted by your devotion to it....which, as I have said, I adore.
However...What is the "quick take" for MGM? What is that glance?
Speaking as someone that is NOT as enthralled as as some( you!) that "quick take" is one of a mess. As, I have mentioned....Is it entertainment? Hollywood? It's a hodgepodge of this....And honestly, that quicktake is needed for a Disney Park.
I am quite lucky to know to look past that and know there is some back-story and "history" there. (FYI, I do agree with the City Concept you have coined)
IN saying this.....The park needs a better "front" a better "Quick Take"...Something that defines it. Something that unifies it...Not things that continue to stretch it away from it's core values as it has beed these past years.
We need a return to "The Hollywood that never was, and always shall be". With that solved, or redefined, I honestly will not have a qualm with the park. It could be as hard as they make it, but it is easily fixable in my humble opinion.
Interesting talk....
Sorry to hijack the thread, Fig632...At least we have provided for some entertaining reading, yes?
EpcotServo
Well-Known Member
*siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*:brick::ROFLOL:
Travis, you are putting me through the ringer!:fork::lol:
I KNOW that it's much more than that. I KNOW that there is supposed to be a whole long explanation for every park, and there is! (especially for EPCOT!)
But when it comes to MGM and the average guest....There has to be a quick, clear cut explanation. Something that resonates with the guest and plots there journey through the park. MK's is the classic Disney adventure as depicted in different genres....Space, Adventure, Fantasy... EPCOT, like I said is Futurism, and Culture.
Now....MGM. You have a beautiful explanation of how it's a city, how it allows you to become the entertainment. I AGREE with this. I like it. I want it to be true.
But, is it?
No. It's YOUR perception of the park, and one that is ONLY constituted by your devotion to it....which, as I have said, I adore.
However...What is the "quick take" for MGM? What is that glance?
Speaking as someone that is NOT as enthralled as as some( you!) that "quick take" is one of a mess. As, I have mentioned....Is it entertainment? Hollywood? It's a hodgepodge of this....And honestly, that quicktake is needed for a Disney Park.
I am quite lucky to know to look past that and know there is some back-story and "history" there. (FYI, I do agree with the City Concept you have coined)
IN saying this.....The park needs a better "front" a better "Quick Take"...Something that defines it. Something that unifies it...Not things that continue to stretch it away from it's core values as it has beed these past years.
We need a return to "The Hollywood that never was, and always shall be". With that solved, or redefined, I honestly will not have a qualm with the park. It could be as hard as they make it, but it is easily fixable in my humble opinion.
Interesting talk....
Ohnononono...You hijack that thread right back here Mister.
:lol:
First of all, by your use of the sentence "City Concept", you've really leaped past the gun. In fact, I don't really know where it comes from. Like I said, the buildings, architecture, and structures AREN'T theme (Look up Joe Rhode's presentation from the 10th Anniversary of DAK for more on this.) The architecture, Details, Buildings, and signs are all there to cement the experiences of the park, to the THEME of the park. Which is again, very very clear, Showbusiness and being in it. Every morning begins with a camera rolling and a director saying CUT. LITERALLY, that's the opening and closing of the park. But I digress, what I'm saying is that focusing on what the bulidings look like doesn't mean the THEME is messy. Just look at Animal Kingdom. You can't read the most deep and intricate theme Disney's ever told by looking at the ramshackled buildings and houses and steamy jungles. It's the BACKDROP FOR THE THEME.
And I never said it's a City, let me be frank on the natures of the parks "Structures"
-Magic Kingdom and Animal Kingdom are Kingdoms (Easy Enough) since they encompass a wide variety of "lands" in which adventures carrying out the theme are located in. Hence the parks are "Kingdoms".
-EPCOT is a Community, not only because it's in the title, but because a Community infers a place where not only meeting the world, but discovering the future can take place on a friendly, and almost neighborly worldwide scale.
-And finally Studios is just what I call it. A Studio. It's a framework that encompasses the Hollywood that never was, but always will be. {Regarding that, Studios has never left that. The park has ALWAYS had the layout of starting at the fantasy Hollywood, then peeling back the layers as you go farther into the park, as if it's a set. So don't say it's gotten worse when in reality they've added more too it with Sunset Blvd. in the 1990's, and even more into the Studio aspect with Star Tours, Muppets, and Pixar Place, all expansions from later years.}
Once again, Theme encompasses the structure of the park, which encompasses the lands, which then encompasses the attractions, etc. Think of the THEME of every Disney Park park as the largest part of a Russian Nesting egg. Theme, Setting/Backdrop, Attractions, Story, Plot, Detail. In that order.
As for if guests "get it" or not is debatable. After all, there's MILLIONS of basic things we all know that some guests may not "get". People certainly leave Studios happy if everything goes right, so one could argue that the Theme, was carried out. Basically people see all theme parks as "Passive Entertainment", and you can't argue that Studios goes above and beyond pulling you INTO the entertainment, which to an extent is the clearest representation of Studios' (Also Animal Kingdom's) Theme in action.
On the subject of Theme, another Imagineering story that was told to me by a Lead Imagineer on working on our version of Midway Mania about "Getting it"
In the days leading up to finishing it, the team was beginning to get concerned if people would "Get" that they're not just in the Toy World, but are them themselves, Toys. After all, this isn't written or told by a speaker or a sign in any part of the attraction. During the first day of previews, a small child got off the ride, looked up at one of the Imagineers, and said "We're toys!". And from then on, nobody on the Team questioned if guests would "Get it" or not.
Lastly I'd like to again point out that I'm not defending it so staunchly because I love the park, which I do. Far be it from me to complain, but when it comes to the Themes, I'd defend every WDW park.
(Especially Animal Kingdom. You think I'm rough with Studios, it'd take several books for a rebuttal on a single slam on Animal Kingdom's theme. :lookaroun :lol
And I hate to argue with you my friend, just know I'm doing it because one day you'll visit the parks all the time and love them equally AND separately.
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
Ohnononono...You hijack that thread right back here Mister.
First of all, by your use of the sentence "City Concept", you've really leaped past the gun. In fact, I don't really know where it comes from. Like I said, the buildings, architecture, and structures AREN'T theme (Look up Joe Rhode's presentation from the 10th Anniversary of DAK for more on this.) The architecture, Details, Buildings, and signs are all there to cement the experiences of the park, to the THEME of the park. Which is again, very very clear, Showbusiness and being in it. Every morning begins with a camera rolling and a director saying CUT. LITERALLY, that's the opening and closing of the park. But I digress, what I'm saying is that focusing on what the bulidings look like doesn't mean the THEME is messy. Just look at Animal Kingdom. You can't read the most deep and intricate theme Disney's ever told by looking at the ramshackled buildings and houses and steamy jungles. It's the BACKDROP FOR THE THEME.
And I never said it's a City, let me be frank on the natures of the parks "Structures"
-Magic Kingdom and Animal Kingdom are Kingdoms (Easy Enough) since they encompass a wide variety of "lands" in which adventures carrying out the theme are located in. Hence the parks are "Kingdoms".
-EPCOT is a Community, not only because it's in the title, but because a Community infers a place where not only meeting the world, but discovering the future can take place on a friendly, and almost neighborly worldwide scale.
-And finally Studios is just what I call it. A Studio. It's a framework that encompasses the Hollywood that never was, but always will be. {Regarding that, Studios has never left that. The park has ALWAYS had the layout of starting at the fantasy Hollywood, then peeling back the layers as you go farther into the park, as if it's a set. So don't say it's gotten worse when in reality they've added more too it with Sunset Blvd. in the 1990's, and even more into the Studio aspect with Star Tours, Muppets, and Pixar Place, all expansions from later years.}
Once again, Theme encompasses the structure of the park, which encompasses the lands, which then encompasses the attractions, etc. Think of the THEME of every Disney Park park as the largest part of a Russian Nesting egg. Theme, Setting/Backdrop, Attractions, Story, Plot, Detail. In that order.
As for if guests "get it" or not is debatable. After all, there's MILLIONS of basic things we all know that some guests may not "get". People certainly leave Studios happy if everything goes right, so one could argue that the Theme, was carried out. Basically people see all theme parks as "Passive Entertainment", and you can't argue that Studios goes above and beyond pulling you INTO the entertainment, which to an extent is the clearest representation of Studios' (Also Animal Kingdom's) Theme in action.
On the subject of Theme, another Imagineering story that was told to me by a Lead Imagineer on working on our version of Midway Mania about "Getting it"
In the days leading up to finishing it, the team was beginning to get concerned if people would "Get" that they're not just in the Toy World, but are them themselves, Toys. After all, this isn't written or told by a speaker or a sign in any part of the attraction. During the first day of previews, a small child got off the ride, looked up at one of the Imagineers, and said "We're toys!". And from then on, nobody on the Team questioned if guests would "Get it" or not.
Lastly I'd like to again point out that I'm not defending it so staunchly because I love the park, which I do. Far be it from me to complain, but when it comes to the Themes, I'd defend every WDW park.
(Especially Animal Kingdom. You think I'm rough with Studios, it'd take several books for a rebuttal on a single slam on Animal Kingdom's theme. :lookaroun :lol
And I hate to argue with you my friend, just know I'm doing it because one day you'll visit the parks all the time and love them equally AND separately.
We are NOT arguing!
This is a intelligent and very philosophical discussion.I already love all the parks....I just love studios less.:lookaroun:lol:
Now, let's get into your post....
You taking away from the City/Working Studio theme is getting confusing. There was a post in which you said that MGM was a "Experience" that you lived in, much like one walks about a city and interacts. So, I agree with that. It works for some attractions, like you mentioned. However...what of the other attractions- The attractions where it's a passive experience and there IS NO interaction ? What are those, in this working Studio, and how do they fit? That's where I challenge that part of the Working Studio City deal.
Agreed on Kingdoms and EPCOT.
But....Hollywood that never shall be!? Travis, that's almost GONE from some sections of the park. TSMM? It supports the working studio, but what of Hollywood? Because it transcends both of those in a way, I am confident to say, that this is the reason why it has become "generic entertainment park" in my mind and in others. Same with AI. Even RNRC. All this clashing of "Working Studio" Vs. "HolywoodNeverland" only make it the hodge podge I was talking about. The perfect blend, though....ToT. Interactivity (you are in the show!) AND the Hollywood theme and mood is bursting at the seems. What a incredible feat...and I have not even taken the plunge, yet.:lol: The chicken exit knows me well.:lol:
Getting it? Well...I doubt that any Joe Shmoe goes to EC and "gets it". I doubt he goes to MGM and "gets it". They go to the park...ask them of there impression, and it will be "Ummm....Entertainment?" EPCOT will be "Umm...The future?"
While that is not necessary for Disney to make money and continue to be successful, it IS NECESSARY FOR THEM TO CONTINUE BEING DISNEY. Without this, they are becoming much like other parks...Without definition, without meaning, and just for ten second thrill. They need their thought process back.
Your move, Sir Servo!
This is fun.
EpcotServo
Well-Known Member
First off, need to find the part where I say that in bold. I said that Studios HAS "Experiences within the setting which connect back to the Theme." and like I said, where you're getting this "Working Studio City Deal" is from YOU misconstruing my original letter on the matter.
I repeat, the Frameworks of the parks:
Magic Kingdom and Animal Kingdom, are KINGDOMS.
Epcot is a Community.
Now let's pause here for a moment and note that all three of the parks, aren't very realistic Kingdoms or Communities. After all, nobody lives in Epcot, and there's no real similarity between the Lands that occupy the Kingdoms. This nomenclature, This Framework is supposed to be loose.
Studios is a Real Working Studio, but you VASTLY misunderstand the nature of Disney Reality. Harambe is a REAL town in Africa. (But it isn't.) Main Street is supposed to be turn of the century Missouri. (But it can't be, because there's a Castle right over there.)
See what I mean? It's an Imagineered Studio. One could write an elebraote backstory on how the Hollywood that never was is just a stage for a movie filming, but YOU DON'T HAVE TOO. Instead the Studio portion slowly reveals it itself, as if Hollywood Magic.
Like I said, a sign that says "Don't worry, these are all just buildings and you're in a Theme Park." SHOULD NOT BE WANTED. It's a Studio, yes. But it's just as unique a Studio as Epcot is a Community, or DAK and MK kingdoms.
[Note: None of the Hollywood setting has been removed from any part of the park. Don't know what you're getting at there.]
Peace Through Understanding: It's The Hollywood that Never was, but Always SHALL be. I know it's a slip of the tongue, but you REALLY have to let it sink in and get to know it.
Besides the fact that a Studio that I get to be in is also a "Hollywood that never was, but always will be."
And that's key: Explain to me why Hollywood and Studios are so seperete a setting?
They're not. I've been to Hollywood and know personally, to get to the Chinese Theatre you have to drive right through all the major working Studios and Recording Labels.
What Imagineering Did, was place Hollywood and Sunset Blvd. as the "Main Streets" of the park. Since the theme is being Entertainment and Taking the stage, they didn't just throw up the dirty buildings of Hollywood today and a gate that says "RealStudioLand" (Which seems to be what you want.:lookaroun)
Since this is an Imagineered "Studio", it's only fitting that when you walk through the gate, you feel like you're in this Hollywood Dream. You almost FEEL like an Actor arriving at Hollywood for the first time. It's Magical.
But the park IS designed to only reveal more and more of the Studio it's built on. AGAIN, a distinctly Hollywood expereience is watching what was a world before your eyes become clear that it's just a facade.
Hollywood and a real Studio are the very important cement for the theme. And to tell them, they use the same Disney Magic that ties together a Castle and Main Street, or Tomorrowland and the Matterhorn.
Tower of Terror is just as Passive as the other experiences. With the very real interactivity of today, I think it's the knowledge of how a completely Uninteractive attraction can still BRING YOU INTO THE THEME is being forgotten. Take Backlot Tour, you're just sitting there passive the entire time. But what they DO is bring YOU into the Center Stage. You're ON a Studio Backlot. You're PART of a filming Catastrophe.
And that thought process is very much alive and well at Studios. I think that I've proved rather successfully that every attraction and setting has a very clear cut connection to it's setting, and further the Park's theme.Getting it? Well...I doubt that any Joe Shmoe goes to EC and "gets it". I doubt he goes to MGM and "gets it". They go to the park...ask them of there impression, and it will be "Ummm....Entertainment?" EPCOT will be "Umm...The future?"
While that is not necessary for Disney to make money and continue to be successful, it IS NECESSARY FOR THEM TO CONTINUE BEING DISNEY. Without this, they are becoming much like other parks...Without definition, without meaning, and just for ten second thrill. They need their thought process back.
Your move, Sir Servo!
And honestly, ALOT of thinking and experience comes from that "Ten Second Thrill". I think Disney needs to focus on longform experiences, as well as the ten second thrill.
I just hate this fan view of Studios though, it's just so inaccurate. The problem was Studios' "Lost Decade". Marked at beginging and end with great expansions (RNR, Doug Live, Millionaire, Followed by Midway Mania, Pixar Place, and even AIE.) But in between that you can ask any Cast Member who worked there, during that break in the middle Studios needed ride through family D-Tickets. But where I disagree is that this need (Which every WDW Park has needs) does NOT take away from the great park that exists TODAY.
Eventually all the WDW Parks will fill out their needs list, and balance shall be restored to the Disney World and Studios will take it's place as "one of the best" without fight nor contest.
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
First off, need to find the part where I say that in bold. I said that Studios HAS "Experiences within the setting which connect back to the Theme." and like I said, where you're getting this "Working Studio City Deal" is from YOU misconstruing my original letter on the matter.
I repeat, the Frameworks of the parks:
Magic Kingdom and Animal Kingdom, are KINGDOMS.
Epcot is a Community.
Now let's pause here for a moment and note that all three of the parks, aren't very realistic Kingdoms or Communities. After all, nobody lives in Epcot, and there's no real similarity between the Lands that occupy the Kingdoms. This nomenclature, This Framework is supposed to be loose.
Studios is a Real Working Studio, but you VASTLY misunderstand the nature of Disney Reality. Harambe is a REAL town in Africa. (But it isn't.) Main Street is supposed to be turn of the century Missouri. (But it can't be, because there's a Castle right over there.)
See what I mean? It's an Imagineered Studio. One could write an elebraote backstory on how the Hollywood that never was is just a stage for a movie filming, but YOU DON'T HAVE TOO. Instead the Studio portion slowly reveals it itself, as if Hollywood Magic.
Like I said, a sign that says "Don't worry, these are all just buildings and you're in a Theme Park." SHOULD NOT BE WANTED. It's a Studio, yes. But it's just as unique a Studio as Epcot is a Community, or DAK and MK kingdoms.
[Note: None of the Hollywood setting has been removed from any part of the park. Don't know what you're getting at there.]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace Through Understanding: It's The Hollywood that Never was, but Always SHALL be. I know it's a slip of the tongue, but you REALLY have to let it sink in and get to know it.
Besides the fact that a Studio that I get to be in is also a "Hollywood that never was, but always will be."
And that's key: Explain to me why Hollywood and Studios are so seperete a setting?
They're not. I've been to Hollywood and know personally, to get to the Chinese Theatre you have to drive right through all the major working Studios and Recording Labels.
What Imagineering Did, was place Hollywood and Sunset Blvd. as the "Main Streets" of the park. Since the theme is being Entertainment and Taking the stage, they didn't just throw up the dirty buildings of Hollywood today and a gate that says "RealStudioLand" (Which seems to be what you want.:lookaroun)
Since this is an Imagineered "Studio", it's only fitting that when you walk through the gate, you feel like you're in this Hollywood Dream. You almost FEEL like an Actor arriving at Hollywood for the first time. It's Magical.
But the park IS designed to only reveal more and more of the Studio it's built on. AGAIN, a distinctly Hollywood expereience is watching what was a world before your eyes become clear that it's just a facade.
Hollywood and a real Studio are the very important cement for the theme. And to tell them, they use the same Disney Magic that ties together a Castle and Main Street, or Tomorrowland and the Matterhorn.
Tower of Terror is just as Passive as the other experiences. With the very real interactivity of today, I think it's the knowledge of how a completely Uninteractive attraction can still BRING YOU INTO THE THEME is being forgotten. Take Backlot Tour, you're just sitting there passive the entire time. But what they DO is bring YOU into the Center Stage. You're ON a Studio Backlot. You're PART of a filming Catastrophe.
And that thought process is very much alive and well at Studios. I think that I've proved rather successfully that every attraction and setting has a very clear cut connection to it's setting, and further the Park's theme.
And honestly, ALOT of thinking and experience comes from that "Ten Second Thrill". I think Disney needs to focus on longform experiences, as well as the ten second thrill.
I just hate this fan view of Studios though, it's just so inaccurate. The problem was Studios' "Lost Decade". Marked at beginging and end with great expansions (RNR, Doug Live, Millionaire, Followed by Midway Mania, Pixar Place, and even AIE.) But in between that you can ask any Cast Member who worked there, during that break in the middle Studios needed ride through family D-Tickets. But where I disagree is that this need (Which every WDW Park has needs) does NOT take away from the great park that exists TODAY.
Eventually all the WDW Parks will fill out their needs list, and balance shall be restored to the Disney World and Studios will take it's place as "one of the best" without fight nor contest.
But that's just the thing...! It's no longer a Studio! It's a theme park. It used to be a studio...
I think because it's missing that it, it devolves back in a "Entertainment Park" because it's missing the heart of what should be a Studios Park.:shrug:I don't want that sign, at all! But there ARE signs...And those signs are the attraction. Things don't match. At one end it's the "Entertainment Experience (ST)" at the other, it's "Being in the Entertainment"(TSMM) . The place can't make up it's mind. Perhaps if they were grouped in the Lands differently...:shrug:
Never said I wanted that. What I want to know is what I am looking at. :lol:
It already is a great park. I like it. Not as much as the others, because, it's not my area of interest, and because of the problems I've mentioned here...And you know I am not the only one that has them.
We Go On....
EpcotServo
Well-Known Member
But that's just the thing...! It's no longer a Studio! It's a theme park. It used to be a studio...
It's still VERY MUCH a Studio. Again, just how like EPCOT isn't REALLY a community, but still IS ONE. Just because they don't film Toothpaste Ads there doesn't change the fact that the framework is still alive and one of a Studio.
The Dino Institute doesn't ACTUALLY study Dinosaurs, but it's STILL the Dino Institute.
There was a reason the theme has evolved since opening. (Very Similar to Epcot in the mid 1990's, or DCA today)
The Imagineers talked about this in the 20th Anniversary Studios Panel. Most of the action of actual Filming takes place in such a small span of time, 98% of the time on the Studios tour you only saw a standing or being constructed set. THAT was what you call an "Entertainment Experience", and it wasn't very sastifying. BUT the Studio aspect was still a relevant and important means to conveying the theme, and that's what it is and why it's still great.
Star Tours is ONE OF THE BEST attractions for "Being in the Entertainment." I already told you how each of the attractions not only make you part of the action, but also connect to the root theme of the park.
What do I have to do, sit with you on every attraction and BEAT YOU over the head with a baseball bat shouting "YOU'RE THE STAR!!!"?
:lol:
Seriously, Star Tours is a great example of a classic Studios attraction. You're not just watching Star Wars on a screen, or them filming it. Since you can't actually use editing in the real world, and you can't read from the script, they begin with the back of the set. A few steps later and you're in another galaxy. You're now the STAR of the movie for a few minutes as you blow up the FREAKIN' DEATH STAR. Again, interactivity and being Involved in the attraction are two different things. The only reason they are starting to meld is that we now have the technology to involve a largely passive audience that have lost touch with experience as Magic. Hopefully all this interactivity will connect people back to the experiences and will start to use their imaginations again.
Studios of course.
:king:
And I think alot of those peoples have problems, so we're even.
:lol:
jt04
Well-Known Member
Pardon the interruption, fascinating exchange.
But wouldn't the studio showcase concept solve everything? Lucasland, Pixar Place, Muppet Square, 1940's Hollywood, 1950's Hollywood, Animation Courtyard and Streets of America. :shrug:
OK, just adding my two cents.
Carry on.
Edit: Marveland :ROFLOL:
But wouldn't the studio showcase concept solve everything? Lucasland, Pixar Place, Muppet Square, 1940's Hollywood, 1950's Hollywood, Animation Courtyard and Streets of America. :shrug:
OK, just adding my two cents.
Carry on.
Edit: Marveland :ROFLOL:
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
I could argue that.:lookaroun Not a community in the sense that people live there, but they live in the rest of EPCOT/WDW.
If only the park was still called EPCOT Center...So, basically the thought process I am getting from your writings here, is that it's Studio....but then again..you keep mentioning that it's being in the entertainment? How does this coexist, when you just said that half the time, ig a studio is just looking at sets? I'm getting that hodge podge feeling again. :shrug:
That's like with Star Tours....If it's in a Studio, and you are NOT being filmed, how is existing in the studio, when you enter a soundstage?
Explain that please...
And yes, beating is necessary. I'll just puke on you when you drag me on EE.
:lookarounAlso......How the heck does ANYONE know this!? I've never heard this from the company, WDI, or what have you. Maybe it's the lack of information on the History of the park*, and it's background that keeps me from truly seeing MGM...
*Something I blame on how quickly they opened the park after EPCOT...They should have waited a bit.
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
What do you mean? Better groupings of things in lands? I know it would help me...:lol:
EpcotServo
Well-Known Member
I could argue that.:lookaroun Not a community in the sense that people live there, but they live in the rest of EPCOT/WDW.
No idea what you're talking about here. Nobody lives at Epcot.
You again miss my point. Just because it's not technically a Community, doesn't change the fact that it's still a community. Just like how Studios doesn't have to film local car dealer ads to still be a Studio.
The SETTING is a Studio. (It's a magical Walt Disney World Studio, use your imagination here) the THEME of the park is taking center stage and being in a part of Entertainment action. To carry out the THEME you have the setting. In the SETTING you have the experiences, and in those you have story, followed by plot, followed by detail.
Again, a think of a Russian Nesting Egg.
THEME > SETTING > EXPERIENCES > STORY > PLOT > DETAILS > CHARACTERS
I'll even do a blow by blow for you here of a non-studios example:
THEME
- Bettering yourself by meeting and learning more about the world around us.
SETTING
- A Futuristic world, where evocative architecture lures you into complex matters, both attractively and invitingly. Future World.
EXPERIENCE
- Mission: SPACE. Space plays a big role in the human condition now, and in the future. This experience will afford us with a realistic flight through Space, offering both thrill and a greater sense of knowledge as to the sensations and feelings of this real world endeavor.
STORY
- We're visiting the International Space Training Center, in the far off future when all of the nations have joined forces to begin flights-Into Deep Space. We'll be training ourselves for this bold accomplishment.
PLOT
- The plot moves us through the story. From Hopeful astronaut candidate, to being selected for special training, to joining the organization as part of the Astronaut Core at the end of the ride. Plot isn't spelled out, it's the general movement that carries the experience out by moving it along from Beginning, Middle, to end.
DETAILS
- Details are everything that establish the story, or give it the appearance of more that meets than eye, such as a sign instructing us of accomplishments yet to happen, or complicated controls for Training mechanisms.
- This is the final "egg" if you will. The Characters we meet on this experience are everything from our CapCom, to the Cast Members who welcome us to the ISTC and assist us with our training. That's why they are not employees, but are CAST members. They're the beginning or the end of the chain, so they are important to believing the experience, thusly carrying out the story of the attraction, and the THEME of the park.
Like I said, the THEME of Studios now (Themes can change and grow over time with the park. See Examples: Epcot, DCA, DAK, WDSP) is Being part of the Entertainment action and taking center stage. For the last 15 years, this has been what the park is shifting too, and carries out everyday in the thrilling attractions, talented entertainers, and dedicated Cast Members.
[AN ASIDE NOTE: Universal Studios is now doing a major shift in theme in the last three Years, like Studios did in a much larger span of time. They're Shifting away from the very specific theme of "Riding the Movies" to a more general theme of being an entertainer in all mediums, see examples: Revenge of the Mummy, The Simpsons Ride, Hollywood Rip Ride Rocket. Take that for what you will, but right now the park is shifting much faster to the more general theme of "Being inside the Entertainment".
Now this is still suitably different than Studios, but it is important to note that this is another example of shifting from a very small theme ("Riding the Movies") to a theme which brings you into general entertainment.
Before anyone get's crazy, I'd like to say that I don't think this is planned after Studios. What I think is that they are trying emulate the more general theme of it's sister park, Islands of Adventure. The general theme of Adventure allows much more diverse experiences. This is why the more general theme, the better. Just an interesting note]
Anyways, back to OUR conversation Evan:
Again, if you were to have a film crew riding with you making you do several takes of blowing up the Death Star (In this case it'd be a green screen) you WOULD NOT feel like you do when you IMAGINE what it'd be like to be that character. That's what Disney does. It makes Hollywood Magic REAL, and puts you in the leading role. You can act VERY well if what's happening to you FEELS real. In reality, this Hollywood Magic does not exist. But when you're watching you think "MAN, I would love to be doing this. Blowing up the Death Star."
That fits the THEME alright. So we set it in a Studio, like you're an actor about to film your big action scene. A few steps later, you're ON SCREEN.
INT. STAR TOURS TRAVEL AGENCY
And from there on out you're character is in the middle of the action.
For the millionth time: Theme, Setting, Story. Your story, therefore carries out the THEME of the park.
How the heck I know this comes from exploring, AND knowledge. You'll never find this in a textbook. You won't find this by instead of running from attraction to attraction, or waiting at the exit because you think the ride may be scary. You find this, just like the other parks, by Slowing Down. Savor the experiences and setting. Looking at the details, and forgetting that it's ride. Go on the scary rides, and savor every moment of fear so you'll look back at them with fond memory. When a Cast Member says "Welcome to Star Tours", don't think of that just as "The name of the ride". Sit and peoplewatch. Re-Read Imagineering books and quotes until you understand what they MEAN.
And like everything at Disney, you'll know it because there is ALWAYS more to it than amusement rides.
Though I will present a suggested list of things dealing with Theme in lieu of a good day long visit.
- Designing Disney by John Hench
- Walt Disney Imagineering: By the Imagineers
- The Making of Disney's Animal Kingdom by Melody Malmberg
- The Imagineering Field Guide to EPCOT and Animal Kingdom
- The Imagineering Way by the Imagineers
- Studios' 20th Anniversary Presentation with Bob Lamb, Tom Fitzgerald, and Eric Jacobson
- Animal Kingdom's 10th Anniversary presentation with Joe Rhode
Again, separating things into lands is only done on a small scale for Studios. The reason being is to give a sense of hectic Hollywood-show business energy, rather than one of control and order, a feeling that would only do poorly for carrying out the Theme.
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
You have me up until there. I get the theme stuff....But that transition to being in the movie to being on a soundstage is iffy. How is that convayed, how does that work for a average guest? I get it, but will Joe Shmoe? Does he need to get it? I think so.No idea what you're talking about here. Nobody lives at Epcot.
You again miss my point. Just because it's not technically a Community, doesn't change the fact that it's still a community. Just like how Studios doesn't have to film local car dealer ads to still be a Studio.
The SETTING is a Studio. (It's a magical Walt Disney World Studio, use your imagination here) the THEME of the park is taking center stage and being in a part of Entertainment action. To carry out the THEME you have the setting. In the SETTING you have the experiences, and in those you have story, followed by plot, followed by detail.
Again, a think of a Russian Nesting Egg.
THEME > SETTING > EXPERIENCES > STORY > PLOT > DETAILS > CHARACTERS
I'll even do a blow by blow for you here of a non-studios example:
THEME
- Bettering yourself by meeting and learning more about the world around us.
SETTING
- A Futuristic world, where evocative architecture lures you into complex matters, both attractively and invitingly. Future World.
EXPERIENCE
- Mission: SPACE. Space plays a big role in the human condition now, and in the future. This experience will afford us with a realistic flight through Space, offering both thrill and a greater sense of knowledge as to the sensations and feelings of this real world endeavor.
STORY
- We're visiting the International Space Training Center, in the far off future when all of the nations have joined forces to begin flights-Into Deep Space. We'll be training ourselves for this bold accomplishment.
PLOT
- The plot moves us through the story. From Hopeful astronaut candidate, to being selected for special training, to joining the organization as part of the Astronaut Core at the end of the ride. Plot isn't spelled out, it's the general movement that carries the experience out by moving it along from Beginning, Middle, to end.
DETAILS
CHARACTERS
- Details are everything that establish the story, or give it the appearance of more that meets than eye, such as a sign instructing us of accomplishments yet to happen, or complicated controls for Training mechanisms.
Are you starting to get it? You don't THEME an attraction or a piece of land. You put stories, and details in it, but it's not the theme.
- This is the final "egg" if you will. The Characters we meet on this experience are everything from our CapCom, to the Cast Members who welcome us to the ISTC and assist us with our training. That's why they are not employees, but are CAST members. They're the beginning or the end of the chain, so they are important to believing the experience, thusly carrying out the story of the attraction, and the THEME of the park.
Like I said, the THEME of Studios now (Themes can change and grow over time with the park. See Examples: Epcot, DCA, DAK, WDSP) is Being part of the Entertainment action and taking center stage. For the last 15 years, this has been what the park is shifting too, and carries out everyday in the thrilling attractions, talented entertainers, and dedicated Cast Members.
[AN ASIDE NOTE: Universal Studios is now doing a major shift in theme in the last three Years, like Studios did in a much larger span of time. They're Shifting away from the very specific theme of "Riding the Movies" to a more general theme of being an entertainer in all mediums, see examples: Revenge of the Mummy, The Simpsons Ride, Hollywood Rip Ride Rocket. Take that for what you will, but right now the park is shifting much faster to the more general theme of "Being inside the Entertainment".
Now this is still suitably different than Studios, but it is important to note that this is another example of shifting from a very small theme ("Riding the Movies") to a theme which brings you into general entertainment.
Before anyone get's crazy, I'd like to say that I don't think this is planned after Studios. What I think is that they are trying emulate the more general theme of it's sister park, Islands of Adventure. The general theme of Adventure allows much more diverse experiences. This is why the more general theme, the better. Just an interesting note]
Anyways, back to OUR conversation Evan:
Again, if you were to have a film crew riding with you making you do several takes of blowing up the Death Star (In this case it'd be a green screen) you WOULD NOT feel like you do when you IMAGINE what it'd be like to be that character. That's what Disney does. It makes Hollywood Magic REAL, and puts you in the leading role. You can act VERY well if what's happening to you FEELS real. In reality, this Hollywood Magic does not exist. But when you're watching you think "MAN, I would love to be doing this. Blowing up the Death Star."
That fits the THEME alright. So we set it in a Studio, like you're an actor about to film you big action scene. A few steps later, you're ON SCREEN.
INT. STAR TOURS TRAVEL AGENCY
And from there you're character is in the middle of the action. You aren't watching YOU in a movie. You ARE in the Movie.
For the millionth time: Theme, Setting, Story. Your story, therefore carries out the THEME of the park.
How the heck I know this comes from exploring, AND knowledge. You'll never find this in a textbook. You won't find this by instead of running from attraction to attraction, or waiting at the exit because you think the ride may be scary. You find this, just like the other parks, by Slowing Down. Savor the experiences and setting. Looking at the details, and forgetting that it's ride. Go on the scary rides, and savor every moment of fear so you'll look back at them with fond memory. When a Cast Member says "Welcome to Star Tours", don't think of that just as "The name of the ride". Sit and peoplewatch. Re-Read Imagineering books and quotes until you understand what they MEANT.
And like everything at Disney, you'll know it because there is ALWAYS more to it than amusement rides.
Though will I present a suggested list of things dealing with Theme for in lieu of a good day long visit.
- Designing Disney by John Hench
[*]Walt Disney Imagineering: By the Imagineers- The Making of Disney's Animal Kingdom by Melody Malmberg
- The Imagineering Field Guide to EPCOT and Animal Kingdom
[*]The Imagineering Way by the Imagineers- Studios' 20th Anniversary Presentation with Bob Lamb, Tom Fitzgerald, and Eric Jacobson
[*]Animal Kingdom's 10th Anniversary presentation with Joe Rhode
Again, separating things into lands is only done on a small scale for Studios. The reason being is to give a sense of hectic Hollywood-show business energy, rather than one of control and order, a feeling that would only do poorly for carrying out the Theme.
And I have the books you bolded and seen the vids. All good stuff. Can you direct me to the Studios 20 one?
EpcotServo
Well-Known Member
It's conveyed WAY beyond the Attraction's entrance, because the SETTING of the park establishes the Studio and being the star.
If YOU get it, it did it's job. I get it. You get it. Who knows? Joe Shmoe probably got it too. Plus, It's something very invisible, but very much THERE. Even if they can't write all this stuff about it, It's still there and it's still the main focus of their day whether they know it or not, because like I said. The THEME is being carried out EVERYDAY in the experiences, entertainers, and Cast Members. Everything is there bringing the Theme to life, you just have to let it in and enjoy it.
and No, I don't think they allowed filming. I'd watch the Animal Kingdom one again though, it deals ALOT with what I've been talking about, and I'm begining to wonder why I've had to explain it so many times.
:lookaroun :lol: