tizzo
Member
That's actually a very good point, and is the one way in which Disney is distinct from the likes of Universal, where due to how they distribute (and sell) Express Passes, it is decidedly not a zero-sum game.
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Movement for the Death of FASTPASS
- Thread starter akc
- Start date
That's actually a very good point, and is the one way in which Disney is distinct from the likes of Universal, where due to how they distribute (and sell) Express Passes, it is decidedly not a zero-sum game.
sublimesting
Well-Known Member
For those that think FP makes the lines longer for standby don't seem to recall how the lines were before FP. Every ride was a LONG wait. With FP you at least have options. I can honestly say that my DW and I have not waited more than 20 minutes for any attraction in the 40 day we have spent there in the last few years (Including the 4th of July) except we did wait an hour for Midway Mania when FP ran out, BUT without FP we were still going to wait that hour.
tizzo
Member
For reasons others have cited, this is not only not true, it logically cannot be true. Because of how Disney operates the FP system, if FP didn't exist, those who are on the FP line and are therefore slowing down the standby line would instead be in the standby line slowing down the standby line.
Your example of how things are during EMH actually goes to prove this point. You point out that the standby line moves faster during EMH than during operating hours because there are no FP-holders slowing it down, and you point out the obvious consequence that a standby line of the same number of people takes substantially less time to navigate than it does during the day when FPs are available.
What you fail to consider is that there are a lot fewer people in the parks during EMH - which is the reason the standby lines contain the same number of people are take less time to move through. Without FP during the day,the standby line would move faster than it does as you correctly point out, but would take just as long because it would have more people on it (on average of course). Logically, there is no other possible outcome.
Actually that last bit is not completely accurate. If, as Disney seems to believe, people holding FPs are spending their time shopping instead of waiting in other lines, then the standby lines could only take longer to get through without FP. The only thing that is logically impossible is that standby waiting could be reduced by eliminating FP.
wizards8507
Active Member
Wow, somebody else who has apparently taken a "Principles of Philosophy" course and understands how "logic" works.
Bravo, though I fear that your post will fall on deaf ears.
tizzo
Member
You've said this several times - I'm just wondering how you came by this information. My own admittedly limited experience (I'm a regular but only frequent the parks at certain times of day, deliberately during less busy days, and tend to visit the same few attractions over and over again), there is usually a fairly steady stream of standby guests moving through the queue with the line being held for the occasional group of FP holders as they arrive.
I've never seen anything like that kind of ratio on Buzz Lightyear, Pooh, or Peter Pan for example. Probably this isn't the case for TSM or Soarin' - most likely because Disney has to give out as many FPs as possible because they run out early in the day as it is. But that's more a function of how much else there is to do in those parks, and the capacity of the attractions, than anything else. I wouldn't mind eliminating FP for those attractions, however the standby line wouldn't be any faster because though it would move faster it would be longer because the would-be FP holders would be on line instead.
And I think the reason Disney doesn't do it is because they feel that those people would do less shopping as well - I'm sure they get plenty of complaints from guests who can't get FPs to TSM because they wait until after lunch.
tizzo
Member
Most likely it stopped being enforced because not enforcing it wasn't a problem. The problem now is that, since it hasn't been enforced for so long, suddenly beginning to enforce it poses problems of it's own. It has been a while, but I've seen guests become very angry with castmembers trying to enforce the end of the return window - for obvious reasons.
tizzo
Member
I can certainly understand that. But I've gone when it was crowded and even not so crowded, and did NOT buy the express pass, and I not only felt like it - I was getting ripped off.
Here's the breakdown in your argument. You have a good time with EP at Universal because your good time is being subsidized by other people who don't buy the EP. Your argument makes no room for the fact that not everyone buys an EP, and that without buying an EP you cannot get your money's worth for a day at Universal. What this should ultimately lead to is a situation in which everyone in the park has an EP. This would occur as a result of some of those not buying them deciding to start doing so, and the rest of the people just not going to Universal anymore.
That leaves two possibilities. Either enough people buy EPs so that the revenue earned from them replaces that lost by the rest, in which case the EP loses all meaning and it's as if they didn't exist (because remember, the entire benefit you get from your EP comes at the expense of other guests who don't buy them). Or, more people choose the second option, and attendance drops to the point where your EP again has no meaning, but this time because there are so few people that you don't need an EP in the first place.
I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine which one Universal is hoping for
tizzo
Member
All the FP distribution points I'm aware of tell you ahead of time what window you're going to get, so if you know you have an ADR that will conflict with the window being distributed, don't stick your ticket in the machine.
Disney's system technically involves returning to the attraction within the FP return window. What works fine for you is Disney's failure to adhere to that system.
tizzo
Member
So - now you're asserting that FP reduces the total throughput of a given attraction?
tizzo
Member
This is a poor comparison because there are far fewer people in the parks during EMH.
If there were no FPs during the day, the standby line would move faster than it does now, but there would be more people on it.
Likewise, if there were FPs during EMH, the standby line would move as slowly as it does during the day because of the delay introduced by FP - but there would be fewer people on it, and so it would take just as long (on average).
wizards8507
Active Member
To be perfectly explicit:
A) A 100 person standby line
will move faster than
B) A 100 person standby line with FASTPASS
HOWEVER
Without FASTPASS, the line in scenario A) would have more than 100 people in it.
A) A 100 person standby line
will move faster than
B) A 100 person standby line with FASTPASS
HOWEVER
Without FASTPASS, the line in scenario A) would have more than 100 people in it.
v_misses_epcot
Member
You know, there's a solution to all this bickering and such. Buy a Brazilian tour group t shirt off eBay and go get a tan =) Have you not all seen the stacks and stacks of fast passes the tour groups get? :ROFLOL:
My boyfriend and I were looking at the wait time for Space Mountain last month and it was 70 minutes and along came a group they went to the group leader which then took out the stack of FP's and they ran off into the ride.
Since we work there, we don't mind waiting in line sometimes unless if we have a dinner reservation, then we'll get a FP. We like to people watch and I like to take detail pictures of attractions so it works out well for both of us. Sometimes times aren't quite accurate especially when guest keep the red tag and it never gets to the cm up front. Once the wait time for TSM was 50 minutes, we got in and counted and ended up being 25 minutes. So it all depends really.
Also be on the look out for FP's on the floor, you wouldn't believe how many get dropped and since they don't expire right away, you might get lucky.
Also what everyone else has been stating, GET YOUR LAZY BUTTS OUT OF BED AND HEAD TO THE PARK EARLY!! lol Only then, especially during the summer and winter busy seasons, will you get fast passes with out them running out. (Especially for the super popular rides.)
It's also not very hard to understand how the system works, it's not so bad people. Sometimes you just need to relax, have a cup of coffee (or margarita), sit on a bench and laugh and enjoy your surroundings. Rushing around the park only gets kids and parents cranky and that's a no no. =(
My boyfriend and I were looking at the wait time for Space Mountain last month and it was 70 minutes and along came a group they went to the group leader which then took out the stack of FP's and they ran off into the ride.
Since we work there, we don't mind waiting in line sometimes unless if we have a dinner reservation, then we'll get a FP. We like to people watch and I like to take detail pictures of attractions so it works out well for both of us. Sometimes times aren't quite accurate especially when guest keep the red tag and it never gets to the cm up front. Once the wait time for TSM was 50 minutes, we got in and counted and ended up being 25 minutes. So it all depends really.
Also be on the look out for FP's on the floor, you wouldn't believe how many get dropped and since they don't expire right away, you might get lucky.
Also what everyone else has been stating, GET YOUR LAZY BUTTS OUT OF BED AND HEAD TO THE PARK EARLY!! lol Only then, especially during the summer and winter busy seasons, will you get fast passes with out them running out. (Especially for the super popular rides.)
It's also not very hard to understand how the system works, it's not so bad people. Sometimes you just need to relax, have a cup of coffee (or margarita), sit on a bench and laugh and enjoy your surroundings. Rushing around the park only gets kids and parents cranky and that's a no no. =(
tizzo
Member
The bottom line is, I've been told by those who matter AT the parks that there is nothing wrong with the way I tour the parks. So I don't need to justify my touring strategies which have already been established as LEGAL in the eyes of management. Nor will I be altering my methods to placate those who potificate on their message board soapboxes against strategies that are both legal and acceptable in the eyes of the park operators!
Speaking only for myself, I try to use my FP during the printed window. I do this because I understand the operation of the system and choose not to do anything to interfere with it. You are free to do as you choose.
One thing I would say is that, what you've heard from cast members notwithstanding, your FP says on it in black and white that you are guaranteed entrance to the FP queue if and only if you return after the start and before the end of your window. If it ever happens - and it may not - that you return to an attraction after your window has closed and are told you cannot enter, I would hope that you would respect the word of that cast member and quietly walk away. Complain at guest services if you feel you must, but don't hold up the line for the rest of us holding valid FPs.
tizzo
Member
...which you've just given him.
tizzo
Member
Probably, if only because I'm so late to the dance...
cmatt
Active Member
however - have summed it up eloquently well, and whilst i have been a silly biscuit - i totally agree :sohappy:
....*/thread*
when i bought the express pass - it was good for 1 ride on each attraction and they marked/scanned the ticket to say as much (my gf hates rollercoasters and the pen rubbed off so i did cheat the system admittedly)
sublimesting
Well-Known Member
Right, so scenario
A) 200 people in standby
vs.
B) 100 ppl in standby and 100 people in FP
Either way you have to move 200 people through the ride. If it takes 10 seconds to load each person, you have a 33 minute wait either way. Now as more people enter FP line it makes SB line longer and longer BUT the thing is those people would be dispersed throughout the SB line, not necessarrily after person 100 if there was no FP. The flaw in people's thinking is that if they think everyone will be in line behind them. This logic is defeated by the people that would have been in FP line earlier in the day are now in front of you in the SB line.
stlbobby
Well-Known Member
I posted the following on a thread that covered much of this same ground last week.
"If it is just a matter of the rules are the rules, would you stop caring if Disney stopped printing a window and only had a return time?
Because effectively the rule is anytime after the return time. The second time is to prevent miscommunication and abuse. If Disney didn't have an expiration people would try and use passes days later claiming it was after the return time or horde them and try and ride multiple times at the end of the night. As absurd as these ideas are they would happen and this is what they are guarding against. They're not trying to corral people into specific time frames.
It is like when McDonald's puts and expiration date on a coupon. It is company policy to take an expired coupon unless it just isn't possible. The expiration is only there to keep people from coming in ten years later and demanding a sandwich isn't even on the menu, even then the manager will give the customer the option of a discounted current menu item."
The return times were never intended to control the flow they are just a safeguard. And those that favor strict enforcement need to consider these points.
"Just because you know when a FP is scheduled when you get it doesn't really give you control over the time, you can't ask for a later time when you get the FP. If you leave you have to waste precious time returning and that is hit or miss at best; all the passes could be gone, or you could be into another undesirable block by the time you return. You could sit and wait for the clock to change but that could take quite a bit of time at some rides, especially if your talking about ADR's where you may need over an hour or more delay on the FP.
And if the rule was strictly enforced no one would want FP's during the parades and then the clock would never move forward essentially killing the FP for the ride. And often times, being late isn't the guest's fault, a ride can get stuck or a waiter takes forever, sometimes just judging how long it will take to get across a park can be a challenge.
Wouldn't it suck if you missed your FP to Space Mountain because you were stuck on Splash, or just caught behind a tour group? How would you make the choice between letting a four-year-old use the potty and getting to Pooh to use an expiring FP? How would you explain it to the kid?"
I for one love FP just the way it is. And I remember 60-75 minute waits on Space Mountain before FP and that wasn't even during the summer. I am not going to speculate on actual minutes, but I think the idea that stand-by wait time would dramatically drop without FP is naive. The same number of people are waiting whether directly in the line or in a shop, where Disney wants them, it all evens out in the course of a day.
"If it is just a matter of the rules are the rules, would you stop caring if Disney stopped printing a window and only had a return time?
Because effectively the rule is anytime after the return time. The second time is to prevent miscommunication and abuse. If Disney didn't have an expiration people would try and use passes days later claiming it was after the return time or horde them and try and ride multiple times at the end of the night. As absurd as these ideas are they would happen and this is what they are guarding against. They're not trying to corral people into specific time frames.
It is like when McDonald's puts and expiration date on a coupon. It is company policy to take an expired coupon unless it just isn't possible. The expiration is only there to keep people from coming in ten years later and demanding a sandwich isn't even on the menu, even then the manager will give the customer the option of a discounted current menu item."
The return times were never intended to control the flow they are just a safeguard. And those that favor strict enforcement need to consider these points.
"Just because you know when a FP is scheduled when you get it doesn't really give you control over the time, you can't ask for a later time when you get the FP. If you leave you have to waste precious time returning and that is hit or miss at best; all the passes could be gone, or you could be into another undesirable block by the time you return. You could sit and wait for the clock to change but that could take quite a bit of time at some rides, especially if your talking about ADR's where you may need over an hour or more delay on the FP.
And if the rule was strictly enforced no one would want FP's during the parades and then the clock would never move forward essentially killing the FP for the ride. And often times, being late isn't the guest's fault, a ride can get stuck or a waiter takes forever, sometimes just judging how long it will take to get across a park can be a challenge.
Wouldn't it suck if you missed your FP to Space Mountain because you were stuck on Splash, or just caught behind a tour group? How would you make the choice between letting a four-year-old use the potty and getting to Pooh to use an expiring FP? How would you explain it to the kid?"
I for one love FP just the way it is. And I remember 60-75 minute waits on Space Mountain before FP and that wasn't even during the summer. I am not going to speculate on actual minutes, but I think the idea that stand-by wait time would dramatically drop without FP is naive. The same number of people are waiting whether directly in the line or in a shop, where Disney wants them, it all evens out in the course of a day.
Monty
Brilliant...and Canadian
- In the Parks
- No
My point was that when you arrive at the FP Distribution Point, you don't get to choose what time your FP will be for. Obviously, if I have crossed the park with the intent to get an FP I am not going to simply not get one because the times being issued don't happen to perfectly suit my plans and time my next crossing of the park to get an FP to when I guess they might happen to be issuing FPs for a more suitable timeframe.
Disney wisely understands what you clearly do not.