Monorail Expansion?

[no2apprentice]

Originally posted by plpeters70
But if people can learn to navigate around large cities with subways, then they can surely figure out how to get from the Carribean Beach to the Magic Kingdom on a well thought out WDW Transportation System.

They can! They can take the bus right from the Caribbean to the entrance of the Magic Kingdom.:animwink:

The resort I have stayed at is AKL. I've read several posts about how the buses take the longest to get to MK from AKL than any other resort. I don't personally know, but I'll take people at their word on this point. When we rode the bus, The average time it took to get us from AKL to MK (or back) was 14 minutes. If they were to extend the monorail system, I would have to take the monorail from AKL to a transfer point, probably EPCOT. From there, I would transfer to the TTC. I would then transfer at the TTC to the MK. Somehow I tend to think this would take more than 14 minutes.

I don't think Fantasia Boi is being naive. If you want to bring money into the factor, I'd like to see some quotes on what it would cost to expand the monorail. Then I'd like to see how much park rates and resort rates will increase to cover the cost. Because how else are they going to cover a multi-multi-million dollar project?

 

[monorail256]

I havnt posted on this board so far because I knew where it would go.. lol. I used to say "Oh how could would it be if they would extend the monorail to Downtown Disney?" But.. since then I've changed my view on things.. as of right now... I like the way the Disney Transport system is working. Most (and yes I said MOST) of the CM's driving the transports are friendly, and smart people who seem to be the type who would help you out anyday. You have to remember that tranposrtation at Disney is just like the Trasportation in your own city... its not always fast.. its not always the best.. but it does its job! I dont know about you.. but I dont use the local transportation where I live... I prefer to drive around in a car.. but when I'm in Disney both myself and my family prefer to have someone drive for us.. and best of all ITS FREE (and not to mention you might get some fun trivia from the driver!!). Tyler has shown his expertice in the transportation field. I congradulate him... I dont really think I could do all the things he does.. Monorails..Busses...Boats.. I think I'd go nuts!! Good Job Tyler! Keep up the good work! :sohappy: :king: :sohappy:

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by happy snapper
My only thing against the busses is that there dirty and smelly, cleaner more efficient buses are available so why not phase them in.

In reference to our busses being dirty and smelly... our busses are washed and detailed every night, and waxed once a week. I can assure you, we run one of the cleanest fleets out there.

As for alternate fuels, see below.

Originally posted by no2apprentice
I was curious about the investment of some fuel cell buses.

Disney has looked into alternate fuel busses. I know that we tried out CNG... however, CNG busses are very tempermental, and do not like the Florida climate. To hot, and they break down and stall out frequently. Too cold (and yes, it does get cold in the Winter) and they don't run properly, and clunk around.

As for Fuel Cell busses... currently, the technology for them isn't the most reliable. I asked about them, and someone I know who works for the Chicaco transit authority, told me that they had two Fuel Cell busses. And they spent more time in the shop on the hoist, than in service. He also mentioned that they're very clumsy with acceleration.

Originally posted by plpeters70
I would imagine that with a really well thought out system of monorails, boats and peoplemovers (and maybe even a few buses), Disney could find a way to keep transfers to a minimum from each hotel. I don't think it would be to much to ask to make people transfer trains twice to get somewhere -- more than that and your asking for trouble.

You'd be surprised. People often make check lists of what to bring with them to WDW... And unfortunetly, the brain often gets left at home. Trust my experience when I tell you that guests often times either do not want to, or cannot understand the concept of a transfer or connection.

In addition, after a long night, when everyone is tired... people just want a direct ride home. No transfers, even if they did understand it... hehe

Originally posted by no2apprentice
If you want to bring money into the factor, I'd like to see some quotes on what it would cost to expand the monorail. Then I'd like to see how much park rates and resort rates will increase to cover the cost. Because how else are they going to cover a multi-multi-million dollar project?

Okay... I'll try my best to estimate a few costs... (Mind you, these are not solid numbers, but merely my best estimation based on factual numbers that I have seen, and my knowledge of Disney Transport & Monorails)

Monorail Trains -- $17m per train. I'm going to say we'd need 24 additional trains. That's $408 million right there, JUST for the trains alone. Never mind guideway, or stations. Guideway averages about $5m per mile. (I say average, because straightaways are cheaper... but curves/grades and special situations cost more). I'd guess we'd need approx 30 miles worth of guideway. About $150 million right there. Plus about $50 million for guideway within the resorts. (More on that later)

Now... We'd need to build a new train storage and maintenance facility. Those can get very expensive. Lots of switches, and lots of equipment. $10 million at least. Now, we have to build stations at the resorts, as well as a "Grand Central" type convergance point for all transfers. Now, keep in mind, I haven't even gotten into how on earth we'd fit a monorail into some of these resorts. Theming is a big element. And so is location. And they don't come cheap, either. We'll just say $200 million for all of the resort stations.

So far... thats $818 million dollars. And we haven't covered misc expenses, or "over budget"... because you know it'd run over budget. And, I didn't include replacement of our old trains. That would add an additional $204 million, which would make the grand total over ONE BILLION DOLLARS.

Okay, so yeah, maybe money does have something to do with it. But I can assure you... this system as I have described... would be the most efficient monorail system that they could build. However, it would take 2-3x as long to get to destinations, and require transfers. (two transfers to get to the MK... unless we rebuilt that system, which would cost another $50+ million.


By the way... Disney could buy about 65 busses for the price of one monorail. (not including guideway). Those 65 busses would have the flexibility to go anywhere at any time... bypassing other busses. Going off route to take someone someplace special. And most importantly... if one bus breaks down, they can quickly replace it. If one monorail breaks down, the entire system goes down.

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by monorail256
Tyler has shown his expertice in the transportation field. I congradulate him... I dont really think I could do all the things he does.. Monorails..Busses...Boats.. I think I'd go nuts!! Good Job Tyler! Keep up the good work! :sohappy: :king: :sohappy:

Thank you!! I try my best... and it's not always easy... beleive me... And as for going nuts... I AM nuts, thank you very much.

 

[space42]

So far... thats $818 million dollars. And we haven't covered misc expenses, or "over budget"... because you know it'd run over budget. And, I didn't include replacement of our old trains. That would add an additional $204 million, which would make the grand total over ONE BILLION DOLLARS.

Wow, that IS expensive. But it is only 1/5 of the amount that Disney just spent on the Fox Family channel (that was 5 billion).

When EPCOT was built, they expanded the Monorail. Wonder why Disney stopped doing this when they built MGM? It probabaly would have cost much less if they continued expanding the system as the resort expanded.

 

[no2apprentice]

Originally posted by space42
Wow, that IS expensive. But it is only 1/5 of the amount that Disney just spent on the Fox Family channel (that was 5 billion).

Good point. But, with the investment of acquiring Fox Family channel, they expect a return of investment in the way of having enough advertisers for programming to turn a profit. Even if it doesn't work out for what Disney would like to do, they can sell Fox Family in the future. They may have to take a loss, but they'll let the tax accountants figure that one out.

But with a monorail expansion, what's the return of investment? Guests who think it's cooler to ride a monorail than a bus? That's not something that will show on a spreadsheet. And Disney can't turn around and sell off everything, like they could with a cable channel.

If a family is on a tight budget, but determined to visit WDW, I don't think the thought of riding a monorail instead of a bus is going to make them reconsider paying $165 a night at a moderate resort on property, instead of paying $70 - $80 a night at a decent hotel off-property. In other words, I don't think there would be a big enough increase in on-property guests to even BEGIN to help recover the large investment of a monorail expansion.

I would be the first one to admit that staying at any Disney resort and riding the monorail to other places on property, even a transfer center, would be great. But considering all the information Fantasia Boi has so thoughtfully provided, the best we can hope for is an alternative energy source for the bus system that would someday be cleaner, affordable and reliable.

 

[freediverdude]

system proposal

Well I have a proposal, and wondered what everyone would think of it. It would involve a combination of monorail and peoplemover type vehicles (whichever peoplemover type thing is deemed the best).

What about just adding one monorail extension from MK to AK, and one more from Epcot to MGM, and one more from Epcot to DD? Maybe possibly making all of these links double rails to accomodate more people. Then building peoplemover type things which connect each resort and waterpark to the nearest monorail station. After having thought this out, I believe that the only locations which would need more than two monorail trips would be the locations at each end of the system to go to the other end (i.e. going from AKL or ASR to DD or MGM or vice versa would be the longest trips which would require a peoplemover + 3 monorails). All other destinations should require 2 transfers or less- correct me if I'm wrong here, there may be exceptions. This would require a lot less monorail building, plus would add a new transit technology in a new peoplemover that could wow the crowds, as well as getting rid of the buses and making everything more magical. I'm not sure how much the peoplemovers would cost, as it probably depends on which kind is chosen, but it seems like this would be more flexible as well, and all this could possibly cost the same or less as the grand monorail plan laid out earlier. Does anyone know if double rails were done on this if it could handle the load? Or maybe it would be possible to make the cars full size since there would only be stops at the major parks and DD?

In any case, Disney needs to build SOMETHING, because the buses just aren't magical, and people expect more from Disney than city buses. I have sat at too many bus stops and been left in a cloud of dark smoke after the bus pulled away, and this is not acceptable in my opinion for Disney. If Disney had a system like the one above, I believe people would pay more to stay in a Disney hotel than one outside the World, because currently I think a lot of people think they would rather drive than take those buses anyway, and if you're driving, it makes the non-monorail Disney resorts have much less advantage over the offsite resorts, especially when places like the moderates are about twice the price of a comparable room and facilities offsite. At least in my opinion, Disney needs to step up to the plate and say, "We're the best, you don't even need your car if you're staying here onsite with our state-of-the-art transport!" A system like that would take Disney well into this century as the undisputed leader.

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by space42
When EPCOT was built, they expanded the Monorail. Wonder why Disney stopped doing this when they built MGM? It probabaly would have cost much less if they continued expanding the system as the resort expanded.

Also keep in mind... Epcot was built in 1982. What resorts existed back in 1982? The Contemporary & Polynesian, as well as Fort Wilderness and the Golf Resort. So, the monorail to Epcot made sense at the time. The only busses they needed was to shuttle from the Golf Resort & FW to TTC, and a FW Internal shuttle.

Now, off the top of my head, I can't think of exact dates, but when the Disney/MGM Studios was built (On a different area of property, mind you) Disney had already built (or was planning to build) Caribbean Beach, Swan & Dolphin, and Hotel Plaza Blvd. In addition, Grand Floridian was added to the Monorail loop, and Wilderness Lodge was built soon thereafter. And of course, Yacht, Beach & Boardwalk came along, as well as Old Key West, and Port Orleans and Dixie Landings. In addition, Along came Pleasure Island as well as other Downtown Disney changes.

Like I said, not sure of exact dates, but Im pretty sure those were all within 85-95. (Can someone give me exact dates?) So as you can see, between 1985 and 1995... Walt Disney World saw a huge growth spurt.

My point with this, is that when Epcot was built... it was a single location to a single location. (TTC to Epcot) When MGM was built, there were dozens more locations to service. A monorail would not be logistically feasible.

 

[JLW11Hi]

that's a great point, gary. I personally believe that large modes of transportations that move lagre amounts of visitors at a time, such as the monorail,are the best way to go. Mabey if they invented a system that could bring people just to one place at a certain time of day, like from hotels to parks in the morning, then vice versa at a different time of day. Or a much larger scale continuous loading system, like the WEDWay People mover, for people who arent in too much of a hurry to get where they are goin, but still don't want to wait in line very long.

Any other ideas?

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by JLW11Hi
I personally believe that large modes of transportations that move lagre amounts of visitors at a time, such as the monorail,are the best way to go.

Indeed, for a TYPICAL mass transit system, I would agree, Monorail is more favorable than Light Rail. However... we all seem to forget, Walt Disney World is FAR from Typical. It would appear as if my point really isn't getting across...

A fixed guideway system does not allow for the guest traffic flow that Walt Disney World has, nor does it allow the Flexibility that we require.

Originally posted by JLW11Hi
Mabey if they invented a system that could bring people just to one place at a certain time of day, like from hotels to parks in the morning, then vice versa at a different time of day.

Bad idea. People want to go wherever, whenever. They don't want to be stuck at a location. Traffic is continuous all day long. Heavy in the morning, light during the day, and heavy at night. Also, heavy after parades and when it starts to rain.

 

[WEDMagic]

Flexibility of transportation destinations is the key...
not that this matters but


Disney MGM Studios May 1st 1989
Swan 1989
Dolphin 1989
Carribean Beach October 1st 1988
Port Olreans French quater May 1991
Port Orleans Riverside February 1992
Wilderness Lodge May 1994
Yacht and Beach Club November 5th, 1990
Boardwalk 1996
Old Key West 1991
Grand Floridian June 28th 1998
Pleasure Island was added to the Marketplace (before westside pleasure island and marketplace were all called Downtown Disney) May 1989

Yeah sick isnt it, my memorys a little hazy since its 530am and Ive been up since 9am yesterday. So some of the dates are missing months or days. But I agree a monorail expansion is a logistical nightmare. Id rather wait for a buss, fall asleep on the way back my resort insteas of worrying about a transfer. That and the Monorail system at the moment has a nostalgic, feel. they make the Magic Kingdom, Epcot and the Monorail Resorts what they are.
Night all

 

[WDWFREAK53]

Re: system proposal

Originally posted by freediverdude
Well I have a proposal, and wondered what everyone would think of it. It would involve a combination of monorail and peoplemover type vehicles (whichever peoplemover type thing is deemed the best).

What about just adding one monorail extension from MK to AK, and one more from Epcot to MGM, and one more from Epcot to DD? Maybe possibly making all of these links double rails to accomodate more people. Then building peoplemover type things which connect each resort and waterpark to the nearest monorail station. After having thought this out, I believe that the only locations which would need more than two monorail trips would be the locations at each end of the system to go to the other end (i.e. going from AKL or ASR to DD or MGM or vice versa would be the longest trips which would require a peoplemover + 3 monorails). All other destinations should require 2 transfers or less- correct me if I'm wrong here, there may be exceptions. This would require a lot less monorail building, plus would add a new transit technology in a new peoplemover that could wow the crowds, as well as getting rid of the buses and making everything more magical. I'm not sure how much the peoplemovers would cost, as it probably depends on which kind is chosen, but it seems like this would be more flexible as well, and all this could possibly cost the same or less as the grand monorail plan laid out earlier. Does anyone know if double rails were done on this if it could handle the load? Or maybe it would be possible to make the cars full size since there would only be stops at the major parks and DD?

In any case, Disney needs to build SOMETHING, because the buses just aren't magical, and people expect more from Disney than city buses. I have sat at too many bus stops and been left in a cloud of dark smoke after the bus pulled away, and this is not acceptable in my opinion for Disney. If Disney had a system like the one above, I believe people would pay more to stay in a Disney hotel than one outside the World, because currently I think a lot of people think they would rather drive than take those buses anyway, and if you're driving, it makes the non-monorail Disney resorts have much less advantage over the offsite resorts, especially when places like the moderates are about twice the price of a comparable room and facilities offsite. At least in my opinion, Disney needs to step up to the plate and say, "We're the best, you don't even need your car if you're staying here onsite with our state-of-the-art transport!" A system like that would take Disney well into this century as the undisputed leader.

Magic Kingdom to the Animal Kingdom...somebody help me out here...aren't those two parks the FURTHEST away???
Wouldn't it be more feasible to have the MGM line come from Epcot and the Animal Kingdom line come from the new MGM line??? (If it were to EVER happen)

 

[garyhoov]

The thing that convinced me that Monorail can't realistically be part of any new system was Tyler's statement that Monorail is basically maxed out as it currently stands.

Think for a moment about Magic Kingdom after fireworks. My (very rough) guess is that less than 20% of the Mass Transit guests leave via Monorail, and those people are standing in line. If my guess is even close, we wouldn't need a double track, we would need five tracks. I for one don't want to spend all night waiting in line to leave after a long day at the park. I am much less opposed to transferring as long as it is quick, but speed of egress and massive people moving abilities need to be factored into any proposed system.

I would support a central hub with links to each park and hotel via completely new systems, but that would be astronomically expensive.

 

[plpeters70]

Originally posted by Fantasia Boi
Now, off the top of my head, I can't think of exact dates, but when the Disney/MGM Studios was built (On a different area of property, mind you) Disney had already built (or was planning to build) Caribbean Beach, Swan & Dolphin, and Hotel Plaza Blvd. In addition, Grand Floridian was added to the Monorail loop, and Wilderness Lodge was built soon thereafter. And of course, Yacht, Beach & Boardwalk came along, as well as Old Key West, and Port Orleans and Dixie Landings. In addition, Along came Pleasure Island as well as other Downtown Disney changes.

That pretty much sums up the problem with transportation right there - the fact that they built hotels and parks with no sense of rhyme or reason - they pretty much just plunked them down anywhere. If they had taken the time originally to expand the monorail system, and had built the resorts into loops with a few transfer stations, like the MK resorts, then we probably wouldn't have the logistics nightmare that we have today. You know, sort of plan out ahead of time where are the resorts, parks, and shopping districts would be - and how best to connect them to each other. Sort of like a "Master Plan"!!

It always amazes me that they but so much thought and effort into the planning of the original WDW resort, yet when Eisner came in they pretty much ditched the Master Plan and just built whatever, where ever. Such a shame.

 

[WDWspider]

Didn't Disney do a study on charging a fee to ride the monorail. It seems like this is an answer. If they charged something low like $5 - $10 for a length of stay monorail pass or $3 for one day, I think people would buy it if the monorails went to many different parks and DD. The Deluxe parks connected to the monorail would have the monorail as a perk and therefore no charge, but for guests to parks and other non-deluxe resorts, the fee would apply. This could cut down on hordes of people to the monorail, gain money toward the expansion, and ease traffic on the buses a little. As many people that visit WDW I'm sure it wouldn't take much to make their money back. I guess this idea wasn't taken too well or we would be seeing Track somewhere, I'm just not sure why. A lot of people may not do this, but that's the nice thing about being WDW, there are so many people that a lot of them would pay, I'm sure there is a price somewhere that would be just right.

 

[TURKEY]

Originally posted by plpeters70


That pretty much sums up the problem with transportation right there - the fact that they built hotels and parks with no sense of rhyme or reason - they pretty much just plunked them down anywhere. If they had taken the time originally to expand the monorail system, and had built the resorts into loops with a few transfer stations, like the MK resorts, then we probably wouldn't have the logistics nightmare that we have today. You know, sort of plan out ahead of time where are the resorts, parks, and shopping districts would be - and how best to connect them to each other. Sort of like a "Master Plan"!!

It always amazes me that they but so much thought and effort into the planning of the original WDW resort, yet when Eisner came in they pretty much ditched the Master Plan and just built whatever, where ever. Such a shame.

They haven't just plunked everything down. It's actually pretty well laid out. Things that are on master plans aren't always there. Once things on the master plan gets built, maybe it will be designed even better!

What's out of place? I can't think of anything that is extremely out of the way.

 

[Poncho1973]

Just as something to think about (will do/won't do issue aside) there IS an investment return on monorail expansion.

Maintenance savings.

The buses are MUCH more expensive to repair/service than the Monorail. The road system that was meant to last 10+ years between pavings is only lasting 3-4 years tops largely because of bus traffic. Millions and millions of dollars would be saved each year just on those issues alone. A far cry from the out-cost of building an expansion, but SOMETHING of a return. Eventually, it would even out.

Just because it doesn't bring in revenue does not mean that there is not an investment return.

 

[disneybabes]

Re: Re: Monorail Expansion?

Originally posted by bamboo7
to answer that in more friendly way,
most people here agree that it is not likely to happen, since it would cost a LOT of money, it wouldn't make any money...

So tell me, how are the busses making money? If the monorail route can't be expanded because of no profit, how can the busses continue to run?

Originally posted by bamboo7
...and it really isn't neccesary since the busses are able to handle the load of people moving about wdw.

And what do you think the monorails will do? Stay stationary and make you walk the rest of the way?

Bottom line is this - NEVER say "NEVER" when it comes to Disney. Until Disney comes out with a press release and a huge worldwide press conference saying they'll never expand the monorails, there will always be a possibility.

By the way - netcot.com put up a forum - theirs is uncensored and unmoderated!

 

[MKingdom25]

Originally posted by spider-man
Didn't Disney do a study on charging a fee to ride the monorail. It seems like this is an answer. If they charged something low like $5 - $10 for a length of stay monorail pass or $3 for one day........

I think people, including myself, would pay for this and the convience it would bring. The only problem is I don't think people would be happy with this. Kinda like when you pay $4.50 for popcorn at the movies. You do it because its there but you may not be happy with it.

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by plpeters70
If they had taken the time originally to expand the monorail system, and had built the resorts into loops with a few transfer stations, like the MK resorts, then we probably wouldn't have the logistics nightmare that we have today.

Not true. In fact, you'd have more nightmares. I can't seem to stress this enough... so please... THINK about what I am saying. The PRIMARY LOGISTICAL REASON why a fixed guideway system would not work at Walt Disney World is GUEST TRAFFIC FLOW.

In the morning, you have all the guests going to the parks. If you've stayed at Caribbean Beach, you KNOW what I'm talking about. The bus is practically full by the time it gets to your stop. Often times, it can't make all the stops. So what happens? They send out another bus to handle the rest. FLEXIBILITY is the key.

If a monorail fills up... it still must service all the stops. In addition, the monorail would have to service multiple resorts, and include one or two transfers. Not only would this be a pain in the neck, but, it would take forever to reach your final destination.


At night... you have the reverse... For example, a family of four. Mother, Father, son and daughter. Both kids are practically asleep. They're going to Caribbean Beach. If they were travelling via monorail... they'd have to wait in a MASSIVE line along with everyone else leaving the park. Once they get on the train (and they have a greater chance of standing on the monorail versus a bus), they take it to a transfer point. At the transfer station, they have to wait in another huge line.


So do you see what I am saying? Expanding the monorail would create a logistical NIGHTMARE. Beleive me... I have spent the past 2 years thinking about all possible solutions (and I'm sure Disney has spent the past 15 years trying as well) As much as I do LOVE the Monorail... beleive me when I tell you, the busses can and will get you to your destination faster, easier, and in more comfort.