Scar Junior
Active Member
Oh trust me, it WILL happen. It will happen once I take over the Disney Empire and bring it back to where it needs to be...
This is my mission! It's a mission from God.
-
Welcome to the WDWMAGIC.COM Forums!
Please take a look around, and feel free to sign up and join the community.
Monorail Expansion?
- Thread starter mlnance
- Start date
Oh trust me, it WILL happen. It will happen once I take over the Disney Empire and bring it back to where it needs to be...
This is my mission! It's a mission from God.
Sorry, I haven't been around to post anything as in regards to my first comment, but my $?!@#$%# ISP had other plans.
Anyway, I prefer riding the monorail vs. riding the bus. First of all, Bus drivers aren't good narrators. I prefer the voice of "Please stand clear of doors, por favor mantengse las puertas." And the voice of "our highway in the sky." I have been to WDW two times, once in 1988 and again in 1998. I was only six years old, when I went the first time and riding the monorail was a dream come true. Esspecially seeing Cinderella Castle lit up in blue from the monorail's viewpoint. To me it's much more magical riding a monorail than a conventional bus. I think kids and even adults believe that riding the monorail is a lot more fun than riding a conventional city bus. I remember I was speechless when the monorail went right through the Contemporary Resort first time around during the trip of '88. The monorail makes it a heck of easier for transporting children than a bus. I remember on the trip in '98 it was rather hilarious watching people trying to bring strollers inside the bus. I just believe that Disney looses it's magical touch with the bus system. That's just my point. I think Eisner & Co. should have developed a separate monorail system back when MGM Studios was built. But he had more interests in beating Universal Studios than taking time to look at the big picture. Although MGM Studios is a small park compared to the rest of them.
Enough on my rant.
mike
Anyway, I prefer riding the monorail vs. riding the bus. First of all, Bus drivers aren't good narrators. I prefer the voice of "Please stand clear of doors, por favor mantengse las puertas." And the voice of "our highway in the sky." I have been to WDW two times, once in 1988 and again in 1998. I was only six years old, when I went the first time and riding the monorail was a dream come true. Esspecially seeing Cinderella Castle lit up in blue from the monorail's viewpoint. To me it's much more magical riding a monorail than a conventional bus. I think kids and even adults believe that riding the monorail is a lot more fun than riding a conventional city bus. I remember I was speechless when the monorail went right through the Contemporary Resort first time around during the trip of '88. The monorail makes it a heck of easier for transporting children than a bus. I remember on the trip in '98 it was rather hilarious watching people trying to bring strollers inside the bus. I just believe that Disney looses it's magical touch with the bus system. That's just my point. I think Eisner & Co. should have developed a separate monorail system back when MGM Studios was built. But he had more interests in beating Universal Studios than taking time to look at the big picture. Although MGM Studios is a small park compared to the rest of them.
Enough on my rant.
mike
Monorail Lime
Well-Known Member
Re: Monorail Expansion
Bombardier had a bid in for a system overhaul that would have been really expensive because it called for fundamental changes to the electrical system, among other things. That idea was scrapped long before 9/11 though.
Bombardier had a bid in for a system overhaul that would have been really expensive because it called for fundamental changes to the electrical system, among other things. That idea was scrapped long before 9/11 though.
Invero
Well-Known Member
At the time that the current WDW Monorail system was built (and expanded for Epcot), the system could handle the anticipated ridership. However, during peak times, ridership reaches, and sometimes exceeds capacity. For example, take a look at the Grand Floridian monorail station between 9:00am and 10:00am. The GF station is very busy. Trains come into the station already jam packed. Very few people can get on. The reason for this? WDW Guest Traffic all flows in one direction in the morning. And then reverses in the evening.
A typical guideway transit system will have peak directions, however, passengers will enter and exit at every stop.
Currently, although lacking the "cool" factor, the busses are cheaper, and more efficient, beleive it or not.
Cost is not the factor. LOGISTICS is. The simple fact of the matter is that due to Walt Disney World's guest traffic flow, a fixed guideway system would not be able to handle the crowds. WDW needs a system that can incorporate Flexibility.
In theory, PRT (such as Taxi 2000) could have potential at WDW... however, PRT has never actually been implemented, and could also pose a logistical nightmare as well.
Invero
Well-Known Member
Re: Monorail Expansion
Not to discredit you or anything, but a park to park monorail system does not make sense. P2P doesn't have the ridership demand that the Resorts do. Why would Disney spend hundreds of millions of dollars for a transit system that would move so very few people? If Disney were to do anything, wouldn't you think they'd concentrate on the busy areas?
By the way... What added security? There is no added security for Disney Transport. Our operation never changed.
Not to discredit you or anything, but a park to park monorail system does not make sense. P2P doesn't have the ridership demand that the Resorts do. Why would Disney spend hundreds of millions of dollars for a transit system that would move so very few people? If Disney were to do anything, wouldn't you think they'd concentrate on the busy areas?
By the way... What added security? There is no added security for Disney Transport. Our operation never changed.
Main Street USA
Well-Known Member
Wow! My judgement isn't clouded by Disney in any way, ok. THAT is a funny statement!
garyhoov
Trophy Husband
Tyler,
Thank you very much for your comments. You certainly are the most authoritative voice on this board, and your comments are invaluable.
Cost, clearly, is the driving issue, and you're correct that the buses do the job. I'm not currently sold that the buses are best, but I could be with enough information. You clearly have more information than the rest of us.
On your point about the Monorail system being designed at a time when much less capacity was needed, what is the maximum capacity of the Monorail system? Can trains be added, or can the system only support a limited number?
You seem to be leaning toward PRT as the most likely potential candidate, so lets look at that in some more detail. When I first heard about PRT, it didn't seem intuitively practical to me because the capacity seemed so low, but then I thought more about it. Currently people trickle out of hotels on their way to the parks. The lines for the buses build, but it doesn't happen all at once. They build as we wait for the next bus. If there was a system to clear guests as they arrived, we wouldn't have the lines, we wouldn't have the (sometimes lengthy) boarding procedure. Monorail would have, to some extent, the same problem as buses particularly if it became the only system.
I don't think we should count on any system to completely eliminate buses, but serious planning should be taking place to take some of the pressure off buses to reduce pollution and congestion. Ideally, any logical system would have the ability to expand as volume increases.
I think the thing that is sticking in my mind, (and, based on the popularity of this subject, many people's minds) is that eventually we will find better ways and I would like Disney World to be the ones who lead the way. Disney World really is Walt's Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow. It's a controlled environment where systems can be perfected to pass on to the rest of the world. Transportation was always extremely importatn to Walt. Dreamers and innovators don't say: "I'll wait until somebody else perfects a system and then I'll put it in place when it's cost effective."
Without a more interesting, groundbreaking transporation system, Disney World is all talk and no action. I don't want to take a loud, crowded, polluting bus to a park that will then tell me how things can be done so much better.
Just like architecture, it is more expensive to do it right, but (in my opinion) it is worth the investment.
Thank you very much for your comments. You certainly are the most authoritative voice on this board, and your comments are invaluable.
Cost, clearly, is the driving issue, and you're correct that the buses do the job. I'm not currently sold that the buses are best, but I could be with enough information. You clearly have more information than the rest of us.
On your point about the Monorail system being designed at a time when much less capacity was needed, what is the maximum capacity of the Monorail system? Can trains be added, or can the system only support a limited number?
You seem to be leaning toward PRT as the most likely potential candidate, so lets look at that in some more detail. When I first heard about PRT, it didn't seem intuitively practical to me because the capacity seemed so low, but then I thought more about it. Currently people trickle out of hotels on their way to the parks. The lines for the buses build, but it doesn't happen all at once. They build as we wait for the next bus. If there was a system to clear guests as they arrived, we wouldn't have the lines, we wouldn't have the (sometimes lengthy) boarding procedure. Monorail would have, to some extent, the same problem as buses particularly if it became the only system.
I don't think we should count on any system to completely eliminate buses, but serious planning should be taking place to take some of the pressure off buses to reduce pollution and congestion. Ideally, any logical system would have the ability to expand as volume increases.
I think the thing that is sticking in my mind, (and, based on the popularity of this subject, many people's minds) is that eventually we will find better ways and I would like Disney World to be the ones who lead the way. Disney World really is Walt's Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow. It's a controlled environment where systems can be perfected to pass on to the rest of the world. Transportation was always extremely importatn to Walt. Dreamers and innovators don't say: "I'll wait until somebody else perfects a system and then I'll put it in place when it's cost effective."
Without a more interesting, groundbreaking transporation system, Disney World is all talk and no action. I don't want to take a loud, crowded, polluting bus to a park that will then tell me how things can be done so much better.
Just like architecture, it is more expensive to do it right, but (in my opinion) it is worth the investment.
Invero
Well-Known Member
Thank you.
I also appreciate your well thought out response. You make some very good points.Currently, all three beams can accommodate a maximum of 4 trains. Standard operation calls for 3 trains, with peak capacity allowing 4. Adding a fifth train would actually reduce capacity, as it would back the system up. (And yes, that goes for Epcot too)
As for capacity... Maximum CRUSH capacity is 364. That's with 60 people per car, or 30 people per section. Maximum normal capacity is about 316. That's 52 per car, or 26 per section. Actual normal (average) capacity during peak times: 268. 44 per car, 22 per section. This lower number is due to strollers, personal belongings, and folks that don't want to stand.
By the way, while we're on the topic of standing... Disney seems to have the idea that to get higher capacity, you need to have more standing room, and less seats. This has been illustrated with both the Mark VI monorails and the new Nova LFS busses. Disney ordered both with less seats, and more standing room. However, just because the manufacturer rates a particular vehicle to hold XX amount of people, does not mean that is the real time actual number. Like I stated above, on average, the monorail will hold approx 268 people. The old Mark IV's would hold about 237, with all of them seated. 31 more people. Was that worth it? Especially since the only times the train is filled to capacity is during peak times. (morning, parade, and exit)
Busses on the other hand... the RTS has 47 seats, and can hold about 25 standing. That's 72 people. (hence, "Signal 72" our radio call for a full bus) The new Nova LFS bus, was rated at being able to hold 80 people. Personally, I don't think I've ever had more than 65 on my Nova bus, which only has 35 seats.
PRT theoretically has a high capacity level. However, I'm uncertain if the capacity could accommodate Disney's guest traffic flow. PRT definetly has potential. However, often times an idea looks great on paper, but in reality, it might not work as well as one would like. PRT has never actually been implemented, which is why the world is so skeptical and hesitant about it.
My major concern with PRT is storage. I mean, you'd need litterally THOUSANDS of cars readily available at major locations at any given moment. In the mornings, you'd need to have the cars ready at all the resorts for the guest traffic flow to the parks. As you said, they trickle out, so I don't imagine too much difficulty with this. However, at night, they'd need to be readily available at the theme parks. And you'd need to be able to board 100 individual cars at a time in order to keep up with a Park Exit.
Indeed, I agree with you. However, trying to find that ultimate solution isn't exactly easy I'm afraid.
Indeed, that would be a great thing for Disney to lead the way. And in time, I'm sure it will happen. But, it might not be exactly what we want or hoped for. But we shall see!
garyhoov
Trophy Husband
Tyler,
Thank you once again. I tihink you're starting to sell me.
If the Monorail in its current form can only handle that limited number of trains, it really isn't capable of moving the kind of people Disney needs to move. While Walt Disney was certainly a dreamer, he was also a businessman. He wasn't afraid to ask "What if", but if, after detailed study, the answer came back clearly and unambiguaosly "It won't work", he wasn't foolish enough to push an impractical idea.
Many Monorail fans out there may argue with me, but it seems that we may have learned that while Monorail is a neat system for moving relatively small numbers of people, it can't handle the volumes that disney parks currently generate. Maybe, in retrospect, the design was flawed in not being able to handle enough trains to be practical.
There still could be value in an expanded monorail as a show-piece and a system that reduces Bus ridership, but I am beginning to see your point that the cost/benefit may be too far out of whack to make sense.
If its not really moving people, it could be doing more harm than good. Consider that if large amounts of money (and space) are spent on, for example, moving 10% of guests that money (and space)would not be available for more promising solutions such as fuel cell busses.
Your responses give me comfort in that they assure me that serious consideration is being payed to these matters, though Disney obviously doesn't make public statements about what, exactly, is going on. That leaves many of us fearful that Disney is simply too cheap to move forward.
I will continue to follow the potential of PRT and alternative fuels, but I think you have convinced me that monorail may be of questionable value as a real, usable system.
Thank you once again. I tihink you're starting to sell me.
If the Monorail in its current form can only handle that limited number of trains, it really isn't capable of moving the kind of people Disney needs to move. While Walt Disney was certainly a dreamer, he was also a businessman. He wasn't afraid to ask "What if", but if, after detailed study, the answer came back clearly and unambiguaosly "It won't work", he wasn't foolish enough to push an impractical idea.
Many Monorail fans out there may argue with me, but it seems that we may have learned that while Monorail is a neat system for moving relatively small numbers of people, it can't handle the volumes that disney parks currently generate. Maybe, in retrospect, the design was flawed in not being able to handle enough trains to be practical.
There still could be value in an expanded monorail as a show-piece and a system that reduces Bus ridership, but I am beginning to see your point that the cost/benefit may be too far out of whack to make sense.
If its not really moving people, it could be doing more harm than good. Consider that if large amounts of money (and space) are spent on, for example, moving 10% of guests that money (and space)would not be available for more promising solutions such as fuel cell busses.
Your responses give me comfort in that they assure me that serious consideration is being payed to these matters, though Disney obviously doesn't make public statements about what, exactly, is going on. That leaves many of us fearful that Disney is simply too cheap to move forward.
I will continue to follow the potential of PRT and alternative fuels, but I think you have convinced me that monorail may be of questionable value as a real, usable system.
plpeters70
New Member
I'm having a little trouble here understanding your reasoning that the buses are so much better than the monorail system. If we use your maximum number of monorail passengers of 364, and your maximum bus number as 80, that would mean that each monorail would equal 4 buses, right?? Is the price of gas and maintenance for all 4 buses really that much cheaper than upkeep on 1 monorail?
I realize that travel time for guests would be increased to some destinations if they had to take monorails everywhere on property, but wouldn't this system eventually cost less than running hundreds of buses everywhere forever? And I would think that there would be some way to design a set of monorail loops and stations that would keep travel time down for the guests - at least to within reasonable limits.
And it doesn't have to be all monorails - boats, trains and PeopleMovers are all a lot more Magical than taking ordinary city buses everywhere. Why not utilize a PeopleMover system to travel between some of the hotels and link that up to the monorail system? I could see that working quite well at Downtown Disney - where the Village resorts are all so close together.
All I'm saying is there has to be some way that Disney can ditch the buses and give the paying guests a much more magical way to travel around the property, and still keep the costs down. I'm sure whatever they do will cost a ton up front, but I would think that the future benefits would far outweigh the up front price.
Invero
Well-Known Member
Perhaps if the trains were full size, they MIGHT be able to keep up with the guest traffic flow of Walt Disney World. However, such trains would be quite large, and would really be out of place at Walt Disney World. In addition, creation of such stations at the resorts would be impractical.
Please keep in mind though, Monorails are great forms of transportation, and do have real life value. They can and DO work for typical transit systems. It's just Disney's "Volume at Once" traffic flow that causes the problems. That, and guests do not like to transfer (which is something they definetly would have to do. In addition to multiple stops)
Invero
Well-Known Member
Actually... Yes. But, that's not my point! Money has *NOTHING* to do with it.
LOGISTICS is the key word.
The fact of the matter is that the busses are simply more flexible than any fixed guideway system, whether it be light rail or monorail. The busses can make 7 different stops within Caribbean Beach... If a bus fills up at Barbados... the next bus starts at the next stop, Martinique. If a Monorail were to service Caribbean Beach... (it would only make one stop within the resort, but hypothetically we'll say it follows the bus route)... if it fills up at Barbados... it still has to go on... and all those folks at Martinique will get will be full trains. Every time.
So once again, I say... it's not about money. It's not about monorails versus busses.
IT'S ABOUT LOGISTICS AND GUEST TRAFFIC FLOW.
A good thought... one that I thought about myself actually. But honestly, it's too complicated. To take a people mover to the station, then take a train to a transfer station, and then another train... Trust me... Guests want to take ONE vehicle, and skip the transfer. The whole transfer process baffles a lot of tourists. I spent a year and a half listening to, "What do you mean I have to transfer to get to Epcot??? There's no direct monorail?? What about a bus? Is there a direct bus??"
While we're on the subject of money... let's take a look from another angle. If Disney were to spend big bucks on a transportation system, they'd want to make sure it takes care of the super busy areas. Those areas would be All Stars & Pop Century, and to a lesser extent, Port Orleans & Caribbean Beach.
Now, as for the All Stars... those guests pay $50-90 per night for thier room. Is it fair for them to get a Monorail system, when guests at the Contemporary are paying $300-900 a night for thier room? Considering it's the Resorts that pay for Disney Transport, adding a Monorail to the All Stars would mean having to add a significant rate hike to the ASR. One of the reasons that guests pay a bit more at Contemporary, Polynesian, and Grand Floridian is that they are Monorail Resorts.
Pumbas Nakasak
Heading for the great escape.
This argument is fine to a point, but does that mean that I could ask for a better rate at the AK lodge cause theres no monorail.
At somepoint polution will have to be addressed and that will re focaus debate.
My only thing against the busses is that there dirty and smelly, cleaner more efficient buses are available so why not phase them in. Perhaps it is the limited nature of the monorail that helps put it in such high affection of guests.
no2apprentice
Well-Known Member
You're paying extra to feed the animals.
I was curious about the investment of some fuel cell buses, and the nearest I could figure, based on what I found on the internet, is that one fuel cell bus would cost approximately $550,000. This is based on information that I found that current costs for a fuel cell engine are $3,000 per k/w. A bus requires about 165 k/w.
If someone has some better information on the cost, please post it. With the information I found, 10 buses would cost over 5 million dollars.
Fantasia Boi, do you have any info on how much your current bus costs?
plpeters70
New Member
Don't you think that's being a little naive - of course MONEY has something to do with it. I guarantee you that if it had been cheaper to run monorails everywhere on property than to have buses, then I'm sure that Managment would have built monorails - and damn guest flow patterns. It all comes down to money eventually. But I do see your point about the logistics of such a system.
I see your point. But isn't it really sad how lazy and stupid people can be. No wonder mass transit has never really taken off in this country - people are to impatient to be bothered with transfering trains and such - they just want to go from point A to point B with no stops in between. Still, I would imagine that with a really well thought out system of monorails, boats and peoplemovers (and maybe even a few buses), Disney could find a way to keep transfers to a minimum from each hotel. I don't think it would be to much to ask to make people transfer trains twice to get somewhere -- more than that and your asking for trouble. But if people can learn to navigate around large cities with subways, then they can surely figure out how to get from the Carribean Beach to the Magic Kingdom on a well thought out WDW Transportation System.
At least that way buses would become the less pervasive on property. I don't mind a few to some places, but for WDW to be totally dependent on buses is just sad.
Pumbas Nakasak
Heading for the great escape.
I was unaware that youve had the pleasure of meeting my kids. Just keep youre bodily extremiaties away from their mouths at feeding time and youll be safeOriginally posted by no2apprentice
You're paying extra to feed the animals.