MKCustodial
Well-Known Member
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Monorail Expansion in 2007?
- Thread starter jwbeck3
- Start date
:lol: :lol:
AndyMagic
Well-Known Member
There was nothing to really "go over my head" seeing as how it wasn't really a joke. I've seen far worse comments from new members in the past and there was nothing about your statement that would have led me to believe you were being sarcastic. Try using this smilie -
- in order to stress your sarcasm.
Marijil
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by AndyMagic
There was nothing to really "go over my head" seeing as how it wasn't really a joke. I've seen far worse comments from new members in the past and there was nothing about your statement that would have led me to believe you were being sarcastic. Try using this smilie -
please forgive me, senior member
WDW John
Member
Slight Thread Drift
In '98 I stayed at the GF. Monorails were horrible everywhere. First off, when we got onto a monorail we would sit and wait for 5 - 10 minutes before the doors closed and we pulled out of the station. Then, every time we left any station on the MK loop we would get about half way to the next station and stop, waiting for that station to clear. On our last day it took us 45 minutes to get from MK to GF on the monorail. Getting to Epcot was no joy either, we did it one time and then managed to only use buses.
It made it all the worse since we had been looking forward to staying at the GF partly for the monorail access. I had never seen it so bad before.
Anyway, since then I have opted not to use the monorail system for fear of the same thing happening again. So, it sounds as if the situation has improved and I have 2 questions: 1) has it? and 2) Does anyone know what was up with the monorails in late August/early September of '98?
Thanks,
In '98 I stayed at the GF. Monorails were horrible everywhere. First off, when we got onto a monorail we would sit and wait for 5 - 10 minutes before the doors closed and we pulled out of the station. Then, every time we left any station on the MK loop we would get about half way to the next station and stop, waiting for that station to clear. On our last day it took us 45 minutes to get from MK to GF on the monorail. Getting to Epcot was no joy either, we did it one time and then managed to only use buses.
It made it all the worse since we had been looking forward to staying at the GF partly for the monorail access. I had never seen it so bad before.
Anyway, since then I have opted not to use the monorail system for fear of the same thing happening again. So, it sounds as if the situation has improved and I have 2 questions: 1) has it? and 2) Does anyone know what was up with the monorails in late August/early September of '98?
Thanks,
HennieBogan1966
Account Suspended
Monorail Expansion
Well, my Wife and I were there in Jan. of this year, and everything went fine for us. There may have been one trip where we were delayed for a few minutes. But, as I recall, that was for the loading of handicapped guests. So by in large everything went very smooth for us.
And more to point, I do beleive that expansion of the system to AK, MGM, etc. would be a good thing. Not to mention, that it's part of the "magic" of Disney, to ride the Monorail System.
Well, my Wife and I were there in Jan. of this year, and everything went fine for us. There may have been one trip where we were delayed for a few minutes. But, as I recall, that was for the loading of handicapped guests. So by in large everything went very smooth for us.
And more to point, I do beleive that expansion of the system to AK, MGM, etc. would be a good thing. Not to mention, that it's part of the "magic" of Disney, to ride the Monorail System.
thedisneyfan
Member
Re: Slight Thread Drift
I guess you must have ridden the magical buses that show up at the precise moment you get to the bus stop and take off the second you step on. As to efficiency in regards to the wait, the buses take just as long if not longer to head out after stopping to pick up guests. I don't know how many buses I've boarded after waiting for a long time for one to show up, then sit on the bus while the driver pulls out a count sheet, counts the passengers, waits, adds to the count if one or two more guests shows up, waits a little bit more, and then finally takes off. Stops for lights, slowed down by other traffic, stops for stop signs, stops at other pick up stops or other resorts before heading on to the destination, etc. The buses take just as long if not longer many times. The quickness of the buses definitely has to be called into question and their lack of quickness most of the time equals if not exceeds that of the monorail.
I guess you must have ridden the magical buses that show up at the precise moment you get to the bus stop and take off the second you step on. As to efficiency in regards to the wait, the buses take just as long if not longer to head out after stopping to pick up guests. I don't know how many buses I've boarded after waiting for a long time for one to show up, then sit on the bus while the driver pulls out a count sheet, counts the passengers, waits, adds to the count if one or two more guests shows up, waits a little bit more, and then finally takes off. Stops for lights, slowed down by other traffic, stops for stop signs, stops at other pick up stops or other resorts before heading on to the destination, etc. The buses take just as long if not longer many times. The quickness of the buses definitely has to be called into question and their lack of quickness most of the time equals if not exceeds that of the monorail.
thedisneyfan
Member
Could you please post a website or source to verify these figures?
thedisneyfan
Member
A couple of BIG problems with your notions.
1) The monorail definitely IS an attraction in and of itself. It is one of the biggest images representing Disney themeparks. Hence, the TDL addition. People do go to Disney parks and make a specific requirement of riding the monorail and expect to ride the monorail as part of the entire Disney Magical experience. Thus, the monorail adds a great atmosphere value to Disney. Maybe its not entirely visible on the Eisner balance sheet, but it is indeed a great value and benefit to Disney's balance sheet.
2) The monorail DOES generate a lot of revenue as being and have been a major attraction to entice people to Disney parks. I guess you must have missed all of the Disney advertisements, etc. that show the world famous monorail traveling around the Disney theme parks. The monorail also entices guests to stay at the connected Disney resort.
3) The Monorail further generates and has generated a lot of revenue in all of the postcards, pins, t-shirts, ornaments, and countless other souveniers related to the Monorail. I guess you must have closed your eyes every time you were near all of this merchandi$e.
4) The monorail does serve a basic needed purpose: transporting people in mass through a clean and efficient means. Without the monorail at WDW the need for other means of transportation would be greatly increased as the monorail does transport a significant number of guests each and every day.
WDW John
Member
Re: Re: Slight Thread Drift
I guess I didn't get any of those 'magical buses' 'cause our wait times for the bus weren't spectacular, simply better than using the monorail. The GF happens to be the last stop the bus makes before going to whatever the destination park is, once we were on the bus it was a relatively short amount of time (as compared to the monorail). Going back to the GF was a different story as we had to stop at WL and Poly first.
My question was about monorail efficiency at that time and now. I guess I should have been more clear.
Not on that particular trip. That is why I'm asking what the monorails are like now, since I haven't risked them the last few years.
I guess I didn't get any of those 'magical buses' 'cause our wait times for the bus weren't spectacular, simply better than using the monorail. The GF happens to be the last stop the bus makes before going to whatever the destination park is, once we were on the bus it was a relatively short amount of time (as compared to the monorail). Going back to the GF was a different story as we had to stop at WL and Poly first.
My question was about monorail efficiency at that time and now. I guess I should have been more clear.
Not on that particular trip. That is why I'm asking what the monorails are like now, since I haven't risked them the last few years.
Big Pooh
New Member
www.lvmonorail.com/
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/features/2003/2003-06-25-las-vegas-monorail.htm
The first link is the LV Monorail homepage. The second link is a story in the USAToday, which states, in part:
Investors have bought $650 million of bonds to be repaid from rider revenue and advertisers are anteing up $1 million to sponsor each of nine trains, which are expected to carry 19.5 million passengers in 2004
My guess would be that $650M plus $1M per train advertising is the whole cost of the project, not just the 1st phase 4 mile line. That puts Tyler's numbers pretty close to USAToday's:
quote by Invero:
The original 3.6mile loop is costing $352m to build. That's a cost of $98m per mile. The 3.1mile extension is $337m to build. That's a cost of $109m per mile. An average of $102m per mile.
Tyler says 3.6 miles, USA Today says 4 miles, and either way it really does'nt matter. Monorails are expensive to build and maintain. Sorry I could'nt find official numbers, USA Today is as close as I can get.
In closing, I'll take Tyler's word for it that Monorail Expansion is a bad idea, simply because he knows what he's talking about. He has proven it over and over, everytime someone brings up the idea of Monorail Expansion. Which is a lot. :lol:
Peace Love and Mickey....
Cheers :wave:
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/features/2003/2003-06-25-las-vegas-monorail.htm
The first link is the LV Monorail homepage. The second link is a story in the USAToday, which states, in part:
Investors have bought $650 million of bonds to be repaid from rider revenue and advertisers are anteing up $1 million to sponsor each of nine trains, which are expected to carry 19.5 million passengers in 2004
My guess would be that $650M plus $1M per train advertising is the whole cost of the project, not just the 1st phase 4 mile line. That puts Tyler's numbers pretty close to USAToday's:
quote by Invero:
The original 3.6mile loop is costing $352m to build. That's a cost of $98m per mile. The 3.1mile extension is $337m to build. That's a cost of $109m per mile. An average of $102m per mile.
Tyler says 3.6 miles, USA Today says 4 miles, and either way it really does'nt matter. Monorails are expensive to build and maintain. Sorry I could'nt find official numbers, USA Today is as close as I can get.
In closing, I'll take Tyler's word for it that Monorail Expansion is a bad idea, simply because he knows what he's talking about. He has proven it over and over, everytime someone brings up the idea of Monorail Expansion. Which is a lot. :lol:
Peace Love and Mickey....
Cheers :wave:
JaynMACP96_97_9
New Member
Great points overall in that post!
But it was the Oriental Land Company, and not the WDC that wanted to build the monorail. They also didn't keep the proprietary design of the cars that WDW/DL guests are familar with and opted for a more advanced car design more comparable to a Disney-fied subway train than the monorails in the US parks.
Also, the reclaimed land that the resorts, shopping area, and 2 parks are located on takes up a very small plot of land. Picture being on the beach at the Polynesian staring at the Kingdom. Past the castle is roughly the amount of land they covered with one circle of monorail track(about 3.5 miles worth).
So while you pointed out that the monorail does indeed bring in intangible revenue(brand marketing etc.) as well as a small amount of merchandise revenue, the amount of monorail expansion that would be needed just isn't feasible at this point in the company's life.
Aso someone(tyler?) said earlier in the thread, as new resorts are built, new monorail lines would have to follow, instead of just adding a new bus route.
I like the present situation we have. It gives a nod to the original resorts and parks while still being accessible to the EPCOT resort guests too.
garyhoov
Trophy Husband
:sohappy:
I've always felt strongly that way. If Disney World became a place where only cheap, efficient, logical systems existed, what would be left?
Do we really need the Tree of Life? Wouldn't a small, cinder block building house the Bugs film as effectively? What about the castle? It only needs to be big enough for the shops and restaurant. What the heck do we need those spires and things for?
Look at all the waste at All-Star Movies. Does that huge, fiberglass Buzz Lightyear actually add any structural support to the building?
Obviously I could go on and list nearly everything at Disney World. The fact that this topic simply won't die is the surest evidence that people want more monorail, and if people want it, there is value in it.
Invero
Well-Known Member
Well, that's a great statement and all... but, here's the problem with it. Expanding the monorail would NOT be efficient. You'd either be forcing them to take non-direct routes, or make a transfer at some point. And I can GUARANTEE you that guests do NOT like making transfers, even on a magical monorail. If you don't beleive me, go stand at the MK station or the Epcot station, and listen to the response given when they ask how to get to Epcot or MK respectivly. Confusion and frustration.
Anything to do with the MK itself would require an additional transfer, because the MK area itself is already filled up.
Continuing on with efficiency, let's look closer at how efficient a fixed guideway system really is. Go visit the Grand Floridian Monorail Station some morning between 9-10. Weekends are even better. Here's what happens:
Monorail stops at Contemporary. Most seats fill up.
Monorail stops at TTC. The rest of the seats and some standing room fills up with folks thinking they can avoid the Express train.
Monorail stops at Polynesian. The rest of the standing room fills up.
Monorail stops at Grand Floridian. Despite being full, it still has to stop. 5 people can squeeze on, and 50 people are left on the platform.
Bus stops at Contemporary. Most seats fill up.
Bus stops at Polynesian. Bus fills up, and does not go to Grand Floridian. It goes directly to theme park.
Additional unit is dispatched to the Grand Floridian. No guests are left behind at any stop.
So you tell me. Which is more efficient? The fixed guideway system that cannot vary from its route? Or the bus that can rise to meet the demand?
That brings up another point... Buses can easily grow to meet demand... Monorails are not able to do that. Once installed, they'd require major (and expensive) upgrades to do any growing.
One has to keep in mind... Disney is VERY DIFFERENT than any public transportation authority. Our needs and traffic flow demand a flexible transportation system. Monorails are very cool, yes. And they might work GREAT in an area where a fixed guideway system is needed. Disney just doesn't happen to be one of those areas.
BRER STITCH
Well-Known Member
OK.
The secret cure for all of WDW's transportation problems???
Hot Air Baloons
:lookaroun
Well....SOMEBODY had to say it!
:lol:
The secret cure for all of WDW's transportation problems???
Hot Air Baloons
:lookaroun
Well....SOMEBODY had to say it!
:lol:
JaynMACP96_97_9
New Member
Hey Tyler,
So that must mean that Transportation has a designated number of bus drivers who aren't assigned to a specific route each shift? Are they placed logistically around property to minimize longer waits in these events?
Invero
Well-Known Member
Unlike many transit authorities that some of you might be familiar with, with little exception, Disney Transport does not use Fixed Routes. Because of our unique guest traffic flow, much of Disney Transport is done dynamically. As such... things can vary throughout the day.
Disney Transport is divided into 6 Hubs, or what we call Zones:
Zone 1: Transportation/Ticket Center
Zone 2: Magic Kingdom
Zone 3: Epcot
Zone 4: Disney-MGM Studios
Zone 5: Downtown Disney
Zone 6: Disney's Animal Kingdom
Opening drivers will be assigned a resort area, and a zone to pick up for. Busses will be staggered so that the opening drivers will pick up approx every 15 minutes. For example, I might be assigned to go through the All-Stars, and pick up for Zone 2... this would mean that I'd pick up anyone going for breakfast (or Early Entry) at the Magic Kingdom, Contemporary, Polynesian, Grand Floridian, Wilderness Lodge, or Fort Wilderness.
Starting at 8:00am, we start our Magic On Demand. This is where things sometimes get a bit confusing, so I'll try and explain it the best I can. (It's important to note that Zone 1 and Zone 5 do not participate in MOD... more on Zone 5 later.)
Each Zone has a staging area where the busses all report to. At the Staging Area is a Dispatcher (Field X). Staging areas are as follows:
Zone 2: Stages out of the Magic Kingdom bus load zone, South Loop. Zone 2 covers Contemporary, Polynesian, Grand Floridian, Wilderness Lodge, and Fort Wilderness
Zone 3: Stages out of a parking lot between Riverside and French Quarter. Covers all of Port Orleans. Also has a dispatcher at Epcot itself.
Zone 4: Stages out of the Studios Charter Bus parking lot. Covers Swan, Dolphin, Yacht, Beach, Boardwalk, Caribbean Beach, and sometimes Coronado Springs.
Zone 6: Stages out of a parking lot between Sports and Music. Covers All-Star Sports, Music and Movies. Also has a dispatcher at DAK itself.
It's important to note that Old Key West, and Animal Kingdom Lodge do not participate in MOD. The reason for this is that they typically do not have the demand that MOD was created for. These resorts are Flexed all day long. More on Flex later on. Coronado Springs flip flops between being a MOD resort and a Flex resort.
This is basically how it works. Busses are staged at their appropriate staging areas, and are dispatched to their home resorts to pick up for one of the four theme parks. If they get dispatched to another zone, they drop off at that zone, and then get reassigned from that end back to their home zone.
For example:
Bus 4805 belongs to Zone 3. He gets dispatched to pick up at Riverside (W, N, E, S) for the Magic Kingdom. When he gets to the Magic Kingdom, instead of deadheading (running empty) back to Zone 3 staging, he gets dispatched to pick up Wilderness Lodge/Fort Wilderness for Epcot. Once at Epcot, he then returns to Zone 3 Staging, and starts the process all over again.
Magic On Demand offers greater utilization of our busses by eliminating deadhead runs. Busses are full on both journeys. This system is highly flexible, and allows our drivers to better serve our guests.
It is important to note that although this system is influenced by guest demand, it is not driven solely by demand. Busses are dispatched at regular intervals by the Field X Dispatcher, and depending on demand, are instructed to go different routes. If there is an increased demand in a particular area, the dispatcher will decrease the interval, or possibly send two busses at once.
Between 10:30-11:30, the Zones transition into FIDS, or Flexible Independent Dispatching System. (We call it Flex Dispatch for short.) No longer are busses shared between the Zones.
In the past, we used to use fixed routes for our busses. Each resort area would have 2-4 busses on that specific route, and they would just go around in circles, with pre-assigned dispatching times based on a set cycle time.
For example, if I was at the MK doing the Riverside #2 bus, my times out of the MK might be 1:00, 1:36, 2:12, 2:48, and so on. I would be given 36 minutes to do my route. Now, some days, I'd come back to the MK with 10 minutes to spare, and I'd just sit there for that time, waiting for my time out. Other days, I might get stuck in traffic, or something happens, and I end up running 5 minutes late.
With Flex Dispatch, the dispatch times are still there. However, no bus is assigned to any fixed route. As it pulls into the bus load zone area, it receives the next dispatch from the Dispatching computer. By doing this, we eliminate the wasted hold time, and put it to use. It also compensates for any delays that a driver might encounter. One special benefit... if a bus needs to be taken out of service, it no longer creates a gap in service.
Typically Flex will run from 11:00am, until park closing. At that time, the various hubs will switch to Float Mode for the exit. Floating is just when the dispatcher sends busses to wherever they are needed most. If a load zone is light, they will tell the driver to hold at that load zone for 5-10 mins, or until full. For heavy load zones like the All-Stars, they might send two busses to double load.
A few notes:
Downtown Disney operates with Flex Dispatch all day long.
All hubs use Radio dispatching for Flex.
Fort Wilderness Internal busses, and TTC busses operate via fixed routes. These are the only busses that are on fixed routes.
Okay, I think I got everything there... if you have any questions, or desire clarification, please feel free to let me know.
JaynMACP96_97_9
New Member
Wow, thanks for that thorough explanation!
One question: Do the buses have GPS tracking or does the Field X do a ton of "what's your 20?" over the radio?
The Friendships didn't, but they're in a bathtub whereas the buses are in the ocean, so-to-speak. We'd just call for 20's when we were getting to the Swalphin lagoon which is very tight for 2 66 foot Friendships.
One question: Do the buses have GPS tracking or does the Field X do a ton of "what's your 20?" over the radio?
The Friendships didn't, but they're in a bathtub whereas the buses are in the ocean, so-to-speak. We'd just call for 20's when we were getting to the Swalphin lagoon which is very tight for 2 66 foot Friendships.