Monorail Expansion in 2007?

[TURKEY]

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
Again, but sorry your figures just don't jive. Vegas is getting 9, that's right 9 new trains, 5, that's right, 5 new stations, 4 miles of beam, switches, maintenance facilities, and all the rest for $650 million, and they had a lot more structural problems then Disney would face?!? Your numbers just don't jive.

I thought they were getting some trains from Disney?

Even if it's not, I would think that building pylons in the desert would be a lot easier than building in a swamp.

It would take more than 4 miles to expand just to MGM and Epcot.

You'd have to have at least 3 new trains, 3 stations, etc.

That seems like it adds up to more than 650 million.

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
Then please explain why so many cities, including Las Vegas, are building new or expanding their monorail and subway systems? I guess they must just be dreamers too, and these mass transit systems don't serve any useful purpose what so ever.

You keep forgetting... Disney's traffic pattern and layout is VERY DIFFERENT from your typical city. In thier situation, a fixed guideway system would work for them. In ours, it doesn't. Plain and simple.


By the way... Vegas is only paying $17m per train, as they are only 4-car trains. $25m is for a 6-car train that Disney would use.

$400m for four miles of beamway
$153m for nine 4-car trains
That's $553m... I'm sure the rest is going to be used for stations and whatnot. I don't have the exact figures with me, but looks to me as if the numbers would jive.

 

[jmarc63]

Originally posted by Invero
You keep forgetting... Disney's traffic pattern and layout is VERY DIFFERENT from your typical city. In thier situation, a fixed guideway system would work for them. In ours, it doesn't. Plain and simple.


By the way... Vegas is only paying $17m per train, as they are only 4-car trains. $25m is for a 6-car train that Disney would use.

$400m for four miles of beamway
$153m for nine 4-car trains
That's $553m... I'm sure the rest is going to be used for stations and whatnot. I don't have the exact figures with me, but looks to me as if the numbers would jive.

Tyler you may not be aware of this but some of the cost of the engineering and some of the foundation costs were higher on the Vegas project do to its hard soils. Special heavy augers were brought in to deal with Vegas' almost rock hard soils during station and pylon construction

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by jmarc63
Tyler you may not be aware of this but some of the cost of the engineering and some of the foundation costs were higher on the Vegas project do to its hard soils. Special heavy augers were brought in to deal with Vegas' almost rock hard soils during station and pylon construction

Even saying the costs here in Florida would be cheaper... it's like saying the dealer will knock $1,000 off your $30,000 car. It's something, but it's still expensive.

 

[nikechic]

Originally posted by jmarc63
Tyler you may not be aware of this but some of the cost of the engineering and some of the foundation costs were higher on the Vegas project do to its hard soils. Special heavy augers were brought in to deal with Vegas' almost rock hard soils during station and pylon construction

I think comparing Vegas and WDW are like comparing apples and oranges. Vegas's monorail system was built with the support of the city, state and the casino owner's of Las Vegas. Casino's are such a huge money making industry and have to give little back to its patrons and still people keep coming and dumping their money. Disney, on the other hand, has to make everything perfect for everyone of its guest. People aren't willing to dump the money into this kind of vacation without some major give back, aka "the magic." I
Funding by outside sources makes the Vegas monorail feasible while funding the WDW monorail by Disney's dollar only, may not be. Also, you have to pay to ride the Vegas monorail. And I don't think people at Disney would be willing to pay to ride the monorail. That is one of the perk of staying on the resort property, it is free.

 

[JaynMACP96_97_9]

Originally posted by nikechic
And I don't think people at Disney would be willing to pay to ride the monorail. That is one of the perk of staying on the resort property, it is free.

Tokyo Disney's Monorail costs $4/day(they may have cheaper deals for multi-day fares but we were only there one day). But it was OLC's project, and they setup a subsidiary to manage it. I think it would be way more difficult to start charging at WDW simply because its been free for all these years. TokyoDisney guests never rode a free monorail and now everything on their property is connected by one monorail circle.

Also, quite a few guests that stay off property and/or on property but off the monorail, park their cars at the MK or EPCOT and use the monorail to parkhop or just to check out the MK resorts for future trips. That was part of the reasoning behind placing the monorail stations outside the parks and close to the parking lots.

 

[thedisneyfan]

Originally posted by Invero
You keep forgetting... Disney's traffic pattern and layout is VERY DIFFERENT from your typical city. In thier situation, a fixed guideway system would work for them. In ours, it doesn't. Plain and simple.


By the way... Vegas is only paying $17m per train, as they are only 4-car trains. $25m is for a 6-car train that Disney would use.

$400m for four miles of beamway
$153m for nine 4-car trains
That's $553m... I'm sure the rest is going to be used for stations and whatnot. I don't have the exact figures with me, but looks to me as if the numbers would jive.

First the 650 million dollars, this is what they set up to borrow for the project, it isn't to say that the cost will actually be 650 million, it could be less, it could be more, we have to wait until January when everything is completed to get the final tally.

Second, the cost is greatly increased because of moving it in and around the streets of vegas. This required lots of demolition and removal of structures that would not be anywhere near as necessary at WDW. Also, they had massive costs for digging because of the hard rock and soil of Vegas, the interference with street lights, sewers, electric lines, gas lines, and the like that you won't have nearly as much at WDW again. Plus the amount of street repaving and upgrading in Vegas far exceeds the cost that would occur at WDW. If you look at the monorail fan site, then you will see that the cost is greatly affected by such.

Third, they had to put in a large amount of new facilities, switches, etc as well, 5 stations, 9 new trains, and the number of travelers that they will convey is mind boggling. Therefore, even if they do spend the $650 million, then it really isn't that much. Having six-car trains would mean that Disney could carry even more!

Fourth, one of the major costs to any business is with labor. Monorails greatly reduce the number of labor required to operate. Fewer busses would be needed resulting in even more savings that reduce the impact of the cost of this expansion.

Finally, thinking that the cost of Mission Space and Test Track, only two rides, cost about $250-$300 million, or roughly half of the significant cost of the monorail. Reduced labor costs, reduced pollution, increased transportation that doesn't interfere with normal traffic, increased guest satisfaction and experience, increased marketability of the resorts and parks, increased publicity, and increased monorail merchandising all seem to add up to a great idea to me!

But this is just one fan's opinion!

 

[TURKEY]

How many construction projects do you know that finish underbudget?

I think it will cost more to stablize the land needed for all the pylons at Disney, but maybe that's just me.

I guess Disney won't have to put a large amount of money into new facilities.

The fact that Vegas is using 4 car trains means that their stations won't be as large. I think it would also mean that the pylons wouldn't need to hold as much weight (possilby lowering costs of pylons and beams?).


Depending on the layout of the new expansion, the salaries of the bus drivers will just become the salaries of the new monorail pilots and attendants (remember, you'll need several people per platform to straighten all the confused guests out) if not more. I think I remember Tyler saying something about monorail pilots making more, but I might be mistaken.

MS and TT draw people into the parks so they pay $50 plus photos and other merchandise. Unless a charge for transportation is started again, the monorails won't provide that much increased revenue.

The electricity for the new expanded monorail will require more power plants producing the electricity. The pollution may decrease at WDW, but it will increase somewhere.

 

[thedisneyfan]

No, Disney will have to put money into new facilities, but Disney has had much greater experience with Monorails than Vegas, and I was using this to say that Disney would get the same items that Vegas is getting for close to the same cost as an expansion at WDW.

As to the two attractions drawing in people, there are a lot more items that carry the monorail than either attraction. New monorails, one of the most popular toys sold at WDW, could be made for all of the new stations and park icons, new t-shirts, mugs, etc. could be produced for the public relations dream of an expansion project. Plus, don't think so narrow that only an attraction draws people to WDW. Everything about WDW, definitely the monorail, draws people to WDW. It's the whole package that WDW offers that attracts so many people and creates so many web sites like this one! IF I'm not mistaken the monorail was once on this website's home page.

Electricity produced via windmills, solar, and other means is much cleaner than the diesel and other fluids needed for busses.

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
New monorails, one of the most popular toys sold at WDW, could be made for all of the new stations and park icons, new t-shirts, mugs, etc. could be produced for the public relations dream of an expansion project.

In regards to monorail products... two words: Market Saturation... there will be a point where Disney reaches where there will be too many Monorail items, and sales will slow down. It's sad, because the toys are cool... but inevitable. (However, very good for me, because then I can get all the discontinued monorail merchandise for 75% off... hehehe)

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
Electricity produced via windmills, solar, and other means is much cleaner than the diesel and other fluids needed for busses.

But what percentage of these methods are actually used? If I recall correctly, it's very small. In fact, windmills are becoming less popular because of the birds that they tend to kill. Who would have thought?

 

[thedisneyfan]

As to the windmills they are putting up lots more of them about 20 miles from me here in the mountains of Western Pennsylvania. They really are pretty cool and you can see them from so far away. I'm surprised they don't have a lot more of these in Florida yet with all of the breeze that occurs down there?

Darn you and your 75% off, I'm so jealous, I so miss the outlet stores and I wish that I had the cast discount! I'm so jealous!

 

[MKCustodial]

Originally posted by JaynMACP96_97_9
Tokyo Disney's Monorail costs $4/day(they may have cheaper deals for multi-day fares but we were only there one day). But it was OLC's project, and they setup a subsidiary to manage it. I think it would be way more difficult to start charging at WDW simply because its been free for all these years. TokyoDisney guests never rode a free monorail and now everything on their property is connected by one monorail circle.

Besides your point of Tokyo's being charged from the beginning versus WDW's being free, there's also the fact that the Tokyo system was probably designed while the park itself was being designed, while the tracks we have at WDW were designed for what they had at the time, probably not thinking they'd get to what they are now. And quite frankly, who would've built miles of track that'd sit around going nowhere for years because one day, supposedly, a resort or a park would get built there? :lol:

 

[CSOM]

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
As to the windmills they are putting up lots more of them about 20 miles from me here in the mountains of Western Pennsylvania. They really are pretty cool and you can see them from so far away. I'm surprised they don't have a lot more of these in Florida yet with all of the breeze that occurs down there?

Darn you and your 75% off, I'm so jealous, I so miss the outlet stores and I wish that I had the cast discount! I'm so jealous!

The great plains (Western MN, North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana) are littered with them.... there aren't more windmill's in populated area's because people think they are an eyesore. There was an article recently about wanting to put some in the Cape Cod/Martha's Vineyard area and all the rich shot it down because it wouldn't look nice :hammer:

In the areas most reliant on wind energy currently (parts of Spain and Denmark) they still only get about 20-25% of their energy from the Wind..... in Florida, you'd be lucky to get 5% would be my guess....

 

[WDW John]

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
Everything about WDW, definitely the monorail, draws people to WDW.

I agree with you that the monorail is part of the draw to WDW, but I doubt that is a strong argument for expansion. I mean, they already have the monorail, so expanding it won't be that exciting for most people. It's like saying "Hey, people liked Mission:Space so much in Epcot that we opened one in the Magic Kingdom too!".

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see expansion as much as anyone else but I know that I wouldn't plan a vacation to WDW just to ride the new monorail when the experience probably wouldn't be much different than the current one.

 

[TURKEY]

Originally posted by CSOM
The great plains (Western MN, North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana) are littered with them.... there aren't more windmill's in populated area's because people think they are an eyesore. There was an article recently about wanting to put some in the Cape Cod/Martha's Vineyard area and all the rich shot it down because it wouldn't look nice :hammer:

In the areas most reliant on wind energy currently (parts of Spain and Denmark) they still only get about 20-25% of their energy from the Wind..... in Florida, you'd be lucky to get 5% would be my guess....

Even if Disney went to solar/wind power, what would happen on a cloudy, windless day? They would still need to have a conventional supply for the rest of the power needed plus a sufficient backup or excess capacity for the lack of solar/wind power.