Monorail Expansion in 2007?

[djmatthews]

As much as we all love the Monorails, I can't see an expansion ever happening, it just doesn't make financial sense. There are a few things to remember:

People do not visit the parks for the monorails - they visit for the parks and attractions, for the price of a complete monorail, I'm it would go a long way towards a damn good park, or some excellent attractions. Disney are going to shift guests in the most efficient manner based on the dollar, rather than the minute.

Once on the monorail, you are not spending money, so Disney does not get a return on this particular "investment", if you are in the park, you are constantly spending money on gifts, food, drinks, photos etc thus increasing the turnover. Disney has their head screwed on, they know how to make the money, and keep people spending it, you cannot rely on admissions alone.

Then there is the logistics of it all, if a new resort is built, it is very simple to buy a couple of new buses, re-route or add new routes and possibly a couple of bus stops, this cannot be done with the monorail.

 

[Swagger]

Well atleast get rid of the busses! Those things suck. But if it's a billion so be it. Monorails everywhere would be worth holding a new park 4 years from being constructed. And 500+ for around 10 miles of monorail track is overdoing it. If TDL can do it why can't we?

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by Swagger
GET RID OF BUSSES! I would rather walk then see them in WDW.

What's wrong with a bus? They are efficient ways of moving people quickly.

Originally posted by Swagger
But 500 mil. for a monorail is overdoing it. Maybe around 300 mil.

$300m won't buy very much. Not much at all. Current ACCURATE figures run about $90m-$100m per mile. This is NOT including any switches, rectifiers, stations, maintenance shops, or anything strange or special. They add up very quickly. Then you have to figure $25m per train. A 3 mile single beam circle would require 4-5 trains, depending on stations and traffic flow. So for a small 3 mile single beam circle, you could figure a minimum of $500m, if not more.

(by the way... all figures are based on the current Las Vegas system that is currently being built using specs modeled after our WDW system)

 

[djmatthews]

Originally posted by Swagger
If TDL can do it why can't we?

Practically everything over there is built with a blank cheque, Disney do not provide all the capital, it is provided by (I think) the government. In the same way that HK DisneyLand is not totally funded by Disney. Also TDL occupies a much smaller space than WDW.

We would all love to see more monorail - but it just wont happen.

 

[Swagger]

What's wrong with busses...everything. But I have read from many ACCURATE sources it's more like 65 mil. per mile. Dig a hole, fill it up, put track on it, electrify it, repeat. If TDL has unlimited funding forget WDW I'm moving there. hehe

 

[AndyMagic]

Everyone always assumes that a monorail expansion would be foolish because of how many resorts and destinations WDW has. What I would like to see done, (Yes I know it will never happen) is at least all four parks connected by either a monorail or some other people eater type of transportation. WDW always brags about "park hopping" but with the current bus system, it is a nightmare to hop parks. Hopping from AK to MK took me about 50 minutes! Yet hopping from MK to Epcot took about 15-20 minutes thanks to the monorail. Even with a transfer required at the TTC it was still incredibly quick. I say, connect all four parks and perhaps 1 or 2 deluxe resorts near Epcot and charge a tiny fee for monorail service to the monorail resort guests. Yes it is a huge investment but the small additional fee would eventually lessen the massive cost. Also, if monorail is so expensive, why not a different kind of elevated train. Ok, I'm done with my rant. Thank you for listening to my dream.

 

[Just A Big Kid]

Swagger, i don't really know who your "sources" are but Tyler WORKS for WDW and has been in transportation for quite sometime. To say he doesn't know what he's talking about it basically saying you have no idea of what your talking about. Trust me, Tyler knows his facts. It's his daily job to know more than the rest of us. :hammer: :lol:

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by AndyMagic
WDW always brags about "park hopping" but with the current bus system, it is a nightmare to hop parks. Hopping from AK to MK took me about 50 minutes! Yet hopping from MK to Epcot took about 15-20 minutes thanks to the monorail.

Well, yeah... but of course, those times are for perfect timing for Epcot, and "just missed it" for DAK. Let's also not forget DAK is twice as far away as Epcot.

It can take as much as 40 minutes to get from MK to Epcot via monorail. It can also take as little as 20 minutes to get to DAK from MK. It's all about how you time things and make the connections. To give best case scenario for one, and worst case scenario for another puts things off balance.

By the way... the bus travels at 50mph on its way to AK. The Monorail on the other hand would travel at 35-40mph. My money is on the bus ride being quicker.

 

[garyhoov]

Happy belated birthday Tyler!:sohappy:

http://www.daimlerchrysler.co.jp/index_e.html?/news/2002/021008_1_e.html

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by Swagger
But I have read from many ACCURATE sources it's more like 65 mil. per mile.

The new Las Vegas Monorail uses the same design specifications as the Disney trains. (Mostly because they used to use former Disney trains) As such, thier current figures are the most accurate for this particular situation.

The original 3.6mile loop is costing $352m to build. That's a cost of $98m per mile. The 3.1mile extension is $337m to build. That's a cost of $109m per mile. An average of $102m per mile.

 

[Invero]

Thanks for the link Gary... very interesting.

 

[AndyMagic]

Originally posted by Invero
Well, yeah... but of course, those times are for perfect timing for Epcot, and "just missed it" for DAK. Let's also not forget DAK is twice as far away as Epcot.

It can take as much as 40 minutes to get from MK to Epcot via monorail. It can also take as little as 20 minutes to get to DAK from MK. It's all about how you time things and make the connections. To give best case scenario for one, and worst case scenario for another puts things off balance.

By the way... the bus travels at 50mph on its way to AK. The Monorail on the other hand would travel at 35-40mph. My money is on the bus ride being quicker.

But the problem with the buses is that they run half as often as a monorail can. Yes, the bus might be just as fast if I happen to JUST catch it but the monorails run so often, that the time difference wouldn't be as great. Also, your logic that the buses are faster than the monorails is flawed. The buses stop at traffic lights constantly and while their top speed might typically be over 50, it certainly isn't that fast the entire way. Monorails typically have a constant speed. Basically what I'm saying is, the monorails are consistant. Not to mention, the majority of guests would rather ride in a monorail than on a bus any day. Don't take this the wrong way but I think you being a bus driver makes you a little more protective of the WDW bus system and a little too negative about the monorails. Just my opinion of course.

 

[djmatthews]

Originally posted by AndyMagic
Don't take this the wrong way but I think you being a bus driver makes you a little more protective of the WDW bus system and a little too negative about the monorails.

That sounds a bit harsh. I'm sure like the rest of us Tyler would love to see expansion of the WDW monorail, however, Tyler is an experienced Transporation cast member and know what he is talking about, he is simply pointing out the facts - and the bottom line is, monorail expansion just isn't worth the money.

 

[JaynMACP96_97_9]

Originally posted by djmatthews
Practically everything over there is built with a blank cheque, Disney do not provide all the capital, it is provided by (I think) the government. In the same way that HK DisneyLand is not totally funded by Disney. Also TDL occupies a much smaller space than WDW.

Yeah, the Walt Disney Company, according the the article cited below, put forth between $200-250 million of capital, whereas the Hong Kong Government, and not private investors, are coughing up the remaining $2.5 billion they estimated in 1999 for their budget. That's less than 10% of HKD's costs being absorbed by the Walt Disney Company, not a bad deal at all for Disney.
http://www.solarius.com/dvp/dlhk/announcement-reuters011199.htm

As far as TDL, the Oriental Land Company, and their subsidiaries, thus far are using their own capital($512million as of March) and lines of credit for all structural investments. They set up a separate subsidiary, MAIHAMA RESORT LINE CO., LTD. to build and manage the Tokyo Disney Resort Monorail. But as Dj said, its a much smaller space, the Tokyo Monorail is 5 KM's(3.5 miles) but connects the two parks, the Ikspiari shopping/movie area, and the resorts.

Another thing to note, is that when we were in Tokyo we did everything by subway/train. Their rail system is very good, and is privatized so there are various companies that own/operate lines of track. The JR line has a stop right at TDR's equivalent of the TTC.

Also, their monorail isn't free. When i was there last March it was 500 Yen, which is about $4. But the admission was 5500 Yen, which is only $44, so its better to look at it as a $48 experience. We didn't have time, but we could have checked out the Ikspiari area and the resorts on the monorail.

For more on the Oriental Land Company, go here:
http://www.olc.co.jp/english/company.html

 

[Clemster]

Just to repeat the link again :
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11160

I definately reccomend reading it (well at least the important bits) as Tyler explains in a very clear, concise and knowledgable manner why monorail expansion isn't going to happen, and to quote the transportation guru "it's not about money. It's not about monorails versus busses.

IT'S ABOUT LOGISTICS AND GUEST TRAFFIC FLOW"

 

[Marijil]

while we are at this can we discuss:

use of the 20000 Leagues lagoon;

spaceship earth renovation;

carousel of progress/timekeeper closings;

annual pass discounts;

beastly kingdom......................

 

[Marijil]

by the way, i know its off subject but i heard a rumor that there will be a MK attraction based upon the hit movie "Pirates of the Carribean"...any body have any info?

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by AndyMagic
Also, your logic that the buses are faster than the monorails is flawed. The buses stop at traffic lights constantly and while their top speed might typically be over 50, it certainly isn't that fast the entire way.

Don't forget... Monorails stop for red lights too. Er, well, "Amber" lights rather. However, in regards to the comparison that I made for AK... there are no traffic lights along the way to AK, with the exception of the back entrance. And even when thats red, one can make the turn after a stop if clear. Because majority of the ride is on a 50mph road, the average speed of the bus would indeed be higher than that of a Disney monorail.

Originally posted by AndyMagic
Not to mention, the majority of guests would rather ride in a monorail than on a bus any day.

Well... not if you show them the entire picture. If they can get to a destination quicker by one bus, they will choose the one bus versus taking a "cool" monorail, and then transferring to another "cool" monorail. (I know this for a fact, because I deal with these people all day, every day.)

Most any expansion would require at least one transfer.

Originally posted by AndyMagic
Don't take this the wrong way but I think you being a bus driver makes you a little more protective of the WDW bus system and a little too negative about the monorails. Just my opinion of course.

Let me give you a little bit of history about myself. I have been in love with the Walt Disney World Monorail System since I was 6, and rode in Monorail Green for the very first time. Ever since then, it was my life long dream to drive the monorail. I learned everything I could about Monorails, even became a member of The Monorail Society. My dream was acomplished on November 15, 2000 when I became a Monorail Pilot for the Walt Disney World Resort. Happiest day of my life. I remember, during orientation, I was allowed to take Blue out for a spin on the Epcot beam. What a thrill. I've spent half my tenure at Disney in Monorail Operations, and the other half in Bus Operations. I am very well versed in how it all works both inside of Disney, and how transit systems work out in the real world as well. (Which should be noted are vastly different.)

As much as I would love to see the system expanded, I know that this will not happen, and I have attempted to explain the reasonings behind it. However, there are still those who just don't understand the potential LOGISTICAL NIGHTMARE that a Monorail Expansion could be.

With all due respect... my opinions are not jaded by my current occupation. They are just enhanced with knowlege, and backed by facts.

Just because something is really cool and will work in one situation, does NOT mean that it will work in other situations. Sometimes the underdog ends up being the winner.

 

[AndyMagic]

Originally posted by Marijil
by the way, i know its off subject but i heard a rumor that there will be a MK attraction based upon the hit movie "Pirates of the Carribean"...any body have any info?

Yeah, it's called Pirates of the Carribean and its been their since the mid 70's.

 

[Marijil]

Originally posted by AndyMagic
Yeah, it's called Pirates of the Carribean and its been their since the mid 70's.

right over your head there, huh