Monorail Accident

[RiversideBunny]

.... Pink had to have known that he was on the wrong rail...

Sounds right, but doesn't it still leave open the question about why monorail pink was in fact on the wrong rail?

 

[board57796]

@ Lightboy;

I agree with all your points, which is why I feel so awful for the driver of Pink. I just can't imagine how that feels. Everyone around that area that night, I'm sure, will remember this for the rest of their lives.

 

[haveyoumetmark]

Did anyone listen to the 911 calls at WOFL FOX 35 Orlando? As frustrating as they may be, they definitely offer some insight in to how this happened. Wow, it wasn't handled properly at all... people were panicked.

 

[lightboy]

Sounds right, but doesn't it still leave open the question about why monorail pink was in fact on the wrong rail?

Yes, it leaves that question open. But this is an answer I feel that we may never have. Unless one day we get inside information. But we have enough information to know that the switch was not switched. Either by someone forgetting to switch it, or call for it to be switched, or a mechanical difficulty that showed it wasn't still where it should be.

I'll still be standing by the fact that, if Pink had been aware of the circumstances around him/her (read my last post)...and I believe it was 100% within their realm to notice...then it doesn't matter which position the switch was in, or which rail he/she was on.

But yes, the switch and the driver of pink were both fatal factors. But one of those two factors could have changed the outcome.

 

[lightboy]

@ Lightboy;

I agree with all your points, which is why I feel so awful for the driver of Pink. This person, and I know them, would not have killed a fly, now has this guilt on his conscience. I just can't imagine how that feels. Everyone around that area that night, I'm sure, will remember this for the rest of their lives.

I totally agree. Besides stating what I just said, I totally agree.

It's very unfortunate...

 

[Jason_Garcia]

Trying to reach Monorail pilots

Hi everyone,

Apologies for intruding on the discussion with this, but I cover Disney for the Orlando Sentinel and I'm working on a story trying to better explain how this accident may have happened. As part of this, I'd like to talk directly to any current (or, at least relatively recent) monorail pilots in hopes of gaining a better understanding of things like MAPO, switching procedures, etc..

If anyone reading this is interseted, I can be reached this afternoon at 407-420-5414.

Thanks for everyone's time,
Jason Garcia

 

[Phonedave]

There are no MAPO transmittors on any of the switchbeams. Therefore, anytime a train moves across any switch (or down the spurline to shop) it has to be in MAPO override. So if Pink had been on the correct route, it would have had to MAPO override through switches 9 and 8, because there are no transmittors telling it where it is. Then, once it was passing through Base, the train would begin to "see" the transmittors behind it on the Express beam (the direction it is traveling), the MAPO would return to green, since the train was off the switch, the pilot would disengage MAPO Override, and continue in reverse on Express at normal operating speeds, with a Green MAPO.

Ah, thank you.

That covered the one thing I was not clear about. It's the little section between 8 and 9, not the whole loop that would be red.

It truly does look like a "perfect storm" of events.

-dave

 

[delphinese]

http://www.wftv.com/news/19963033/detail.html

Just released, autopsy report, what witnesses saw, all seeming to confirm what the speculations here said of Pink backing all the way through.

 

[lazyboy97o]

After taking a loot at the diagram that was just posted, I decided to take a look at the satellite of the resort to trace a monorail's trip to the shop. I'm guessing that after reversing through the TTC, the monorail would then begin going forward on the Seven Seas Lagoon loop through the Contemporary and off the spur that heads to the monorail storage. To me it wouldn't make much sense to go reverse all the way around the other way, but even if one did, it does not appear that either way would have one drive into the shop forward. The spur comes off the line so that it appears the only way to switch on it would be if the monorail was going clockwise, while, if it switches onto the loop the way that diagram suggests, going forward would take the train counter-clockwise. One would either have to go in reverse and switch off or pass the spur, switch directions, and then switch off in reverse.

Monorail Pink was supposed to go in "reverse" all the way around (clockwise) to the Magic Kingdom station. Once there, the monorail was to be reset so that it could proceed "forward" onto the spur and up to the barn.

Actually... to the contrary... I'm wondering if Purple's e-stops could have kicked in (if it was NOT in Override) and prevented it from moving when/if the pilot saw the approaching train (pink).

This has been my thinking too. While Monorail Purple supposedly needed to be in override to make it all of the way to the station, it is possible that the train proceeded without override.

If that is the case, and everybody everything "by the book" then think what must be going though thier heads. The Pink pilot knows he followed instruction to reverse and override MAPO. But he also knows that if he had noticed the tower was on the wrong side, he could have stopped -maybe.

Just looking out at the switch would have indicated a problem. If the switch had been thrown there would have been track to the pilot's right. Being on the wrong track means that the pilot continued even though there was track, the one he was supposed to be on, on his left.

But after he clears the switch, why would it look like a hole ?

It would still look like a hole because of how close the spur line is to the station. board made mention of going around in reverse at 40 MPH, so at some point along the Express Line override is disengaged. MAPO is all based on proximity and the switch is far too close to the station to not have an affect.

The switch by the Magic Kingdom is left open to the barn in order to prevent wear and tear. My guess is that this is the same case for the switch between the Express Line and the spur to the EPCOT Line. There is no need to switch back if there are no trains out to be heading south from the Contemporary on the Express Line.

I think Disney should use this as an opportunity to look at things that should be upgraded.

1) The cheapest, put a camera in the other cab so the operator has eyes in the back while reversing.

I still do not think cameras are necessary. It would be easier to just reset the monorail at the EPCOT Line Station so that the first pilot off is driving "forward" onto the switch and can visually verify the switch has been made. This was not being done so as not to make guests wait.

What I REALLY would like to ask for opinions on...is the following...

(1) After talking with MULTIPLE monorail pilots, they've all answered, "I definitely know when I'm backing through that switch" And the reason is...that you actually FEEL the train shift through a sharp left as you're backing onto the spur. They said it's very hard to not notice.

(2) If you pass ANY switches at night-time, they are lit. You'd be able to see as soon as the cab passes over the switch that you're on the wrong one, and Estop. AND Estop with sufficient room that your back car doesn't even enter the station.

(3) Monorail pilots also tell me...even if its dark, you'd be able to VISUALLY confirm you're on the wrong rail. If you were backing onto the spur, you'd be able to see the Epcot line DIRECTLY to your right (refer to Rob's picture).

According to board, Monorail Pink would have also lost power while the switch was moving.

It almost seems to me that if Pink was paying attention like he/she should have been...(and not even a GREAT deal of attention, these are all minor things)...then poor Austin would have went home that night. Lack of attention to the motion and position of his train, I think holds equally accountable as the switches not being in the right position.

A lot of people had a hand in this, not just the pilot of Monorail Pink.

 

[rcapolete]

Yes, it leaves that question open. But this is an answer I feel that we may never have. Unless one day we get inside information. But we have enough information to know that the switch was not switched. Either by someone forgetting to switch it, or call for it to be switched, or a mechanical difficulty that showed it wasn't still where it should be.

I'll still be standing by the fact that, if Pink had been aware of the circumstances around him/her (read my last post)...and I believe it was 100% within their realm to notice...then it doesn't matter which position the switch was in, or which rail he/she was on.

But yes, the switch and the driver of pink were both fatal factors. But one of those two factors could have changed the outcome.

maybe next you could tell us what an airline pilot should do/know based on your lack of experience as a pilot also
to make a bold statement that pink should or shouldn't have felt or know something is down right wrong, one thing to speculate another to outright say that pink is in the wrong.
you can flame me for this all you like but it seems someone needs to stand up for a person who has gone through so much and is now being blamed by you for something you have no idea how it happened.

 

[Phonedave]

And that I believe where experience comes in. This statement has NOTHING to do with age. Same as a airplane pilot learns the ins and outs of his/her aircraft...from airspeeds, to little changes in performance (they learn to "feel" the aircraft as they fly it)........I honestly believe a monorail pilot with extensive experience, would have noticed he was on the wrong beam. He would have noticed that it didn't "feel right" going through the switch, or perhaps the scenery looked different outside the cab.

And I "am" looking for critiques onto my opinion. If you feel I'm wrong, I have no problem with you telling me!

And here is the perfect Catch 22.

We have this same issue at my job as well.

"A more experienced person would have noticed the problem"

The only problem, is how do you get experience? All the training in the world does not equate to real life experience. You have to do it to become exerienced, but you have to start out inexperienced.

-dave

 

[Hoop Raeb]

So the fact that they released the trains back to Disney seems to point to human error on the switch operation. If there was something physically wrong with the switch, I think they'd shut the whole thing down until that was fixed.

 

[lightboy]

A lot of people had a hand in this, not just the pilot of Monorail Pink.

And I explained that as well, though you failed to quote it. If you think OUTSIDE THE BOX for a moment, you will realize my point.

There was unfortunately a string of events that led to the death of that poor CM. But if you look at it from a timeline point of view...

The pilot of Monorail Pink had the last and deciding factor in the chain(although, he didn't know it) that led to the accident.

ALL of them bear a hand in it. But it is unfortunately the pilot of Pink that bears the responsibility of his/her train...and where it is SUPPOSED to be. And I feel that was completely within his realm to know. And the factors that I've discussed prove this...

...as long as the discussed timeline is 'fairly' accurate. Which I think most people that have been following this agree on.

 

[disney9752]

Does anyone know if these 911 calls were picked up by orange county or disney thru reedy creek? The man taking the calls seems unsure of where ttc is, somewhat confused...either way a very tragic situation

this makes me think of the french comic that was drawn when walt died showing mickey crying.

 

[lightboy]

And here is the perfect Catch 22.

We have this same issue at my job as well.

"A more experienced person would have noticed the problem"

The only problem, is how do you get experience? All the training in the world does not equate to real life experience. You have to do it to become exerienced, but you have to start out inexperienced.

-dave

Agreed Dave. Don't dispute that at all.

 

[lazyboy97o]

According to one of the released 911 calls, the monorails collided above the plaza between the station and the ticket booths as seen in the photo.

 

[PKD]

Just a thought..

I know many areas of the parks have gone to a no Over Time policy. Would it be safe to think, that another factor to the perfect storm was the fact that the CM's were instructed to beat the time clock deadline?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Does anyone know if these 911 calls were picked up by orange county or disney thru reedy creek? The man taking the calls seems unsure of where ttc is, somewhat confused...either way a very tragic situation

The audio released is being attributed to Reedy Creek. I think that may just have more to do with how 911 operators are trained to handle calls. They always have that very calm demeanor. Its irritating as hell when you are the one making the call, but its for the best that they stay calm and help to prevent panic.

 

[marni1971]

Just please stop speculating and pointing fingers. Everyone from pilots to maintainence to cleaners don`t need this at this time. The reasons will come out very soon.

 

[lightboy]

And here is the perfect Catch 22.

We have this same issue at my job as well.

"A more experienced person would have noticed the problem"

The only problem, is how do you get experience? All the training in the world does not equate to real life experience. You have to do it to become exerienced, but you have to start out inexperienced.

-dave

Okay, after thinking about this, I'll offer this disclaimer first...I do NOT know what the current training path is for Monorail pilots. I know nothing about it.

But it seems to me that it should follow the path of a train engineer or airplane pilot. Though definitely not as intense.

Both of those professions have in depth training programs that are started in a classroom. Then numerous hours of simulator time. The simulator is NOT there to teach you how to drive or fly...it is there to provide DANGEROUS scenerios in a safe environment. Some of them including factors that only the pilot can avoid. You miss them, you fail. Then after a simulator, you move into a real world over the shoulder.

Of course, if it proves fatigue was an issue, it doesn't matter what the training included.

Again, I don't know...but this would be my response, I guess?