Monorail Accident

[Kwit35]

No matter how it happened...it is still a very sad situation. He really looked like a nice kid.

 

[Cruiser237]

Did anyone see the monorails being taken out of the TTC ? (I'm guessing this happened late Sunday night/ early Monday morning) I'm just wondering if they towed them out, used a crane, etc..

 

[WDW Monorail]

I remember reading that somewere. Something about a train had to hold while it was still over a switch. The shop thought it had cleared and cycled the switch back.

Frantic yelling from the pilot alerted them otherwise.

I thought it was WDW, not DL though.

-dave

I *believe* that it was a trainee and is trainer who had left the shop for the run. Shop threw switch #3 in their favor and the monorail proceed. However, the train went very slow through the area and shop assumed that the train had cleared the switch and threw it back in to its original position while the train was still over it.
So, the train continued across slowly and traversed and "open" track, creating an awful noise as the front of the train moved in one direction while the back moved in another. But the train was not heavily damaged.

This was in WDW.

 

[JML42691]

There are no MAPO transmittors on any of the switchbeams. Therefore, anytime a train moves across any switch (or down the spurline to shop) it has to be in MAPO override. So if Pink had been on the correct route, it would have had to MAPO override through switches 9 and 8, because there are no transmittors telling it where it is. Then, once it was passing through Base, the train would begin to "see" the transmittors behind it on the Express beam (the direction it is traveling), the MAPO would return to green, since the train was off the switch, the pilot would disengage MAPO Override, and continue in reverse on Express at normal operating speeds, with a Green MAPO.

So the pilot would disengage MAPO Override after passing (completely?) through Base station (which Concourse was mistaken for here). So if the operating cab of pink (the undamaged cab from the crash) were still in the station at the time of the crash, would MAPO Override have been released?

Basically what I am asking is when does protocol dictate when the MAPO Override should be released and the pilot should go by the lights on his display?

And thanks again for all your help on this thread, I've read through every post and yours are the most helpful by far.

 

[board57796]

So the pilot would disengage MAPO Override after passing (completely?) through Base station (which Concourse was mistaken for here). So if the operating cab of pink (the undamaged cab from the crash) were still in the station at the time of the crash, would MAPO Override have been released?

Basically what I am asking is when does protocol dictate when the MAPO Override should be released and the pilot should go by the lights on his display?

And thanks again for all your help on this thread, I've read through every post and yours are the most helpful by far.

Thank you. I too had read every post and was starting to become frustrated and thought I'd add what I knew about the system!

We will let go of MAPO override as we pass through Base IF we get a Green MBS (which we do, due to the fact no trains are behind us on Express.) However, the pilot of pink was continuing to see a Red MBS, due to the fact that purple was behind him, so even if it "would" have been the normal point to get a Green and disengage Override, he still would have had a Red, and because he was "Cleared" by Central, you are allowed to continue MAPO overriding as long as possible, until you get to whatever point they had instructed you to (This case, in reverse all the way to MK.)

Gah that sounded confusing.

 

[WDW Monorail]

I can't help but think why didn't the pilot of Purple radio to Central that another train was headed right towards him. I can't imagine it was too difficult to see in to the station, down the beam.
If he did, then I would assume that Pink was told to stop but it was too late at that point.

 

[JWG]

This all seems to me that there is not enough oversite on the system. i would think central should always be occupied until every last train is done for the day or atleast make it so the drivers can get more info then a red light when there is a problem.

My guess is that Central was on the platform assisting with final MK traffic due to staffing levels. That's baseless, but I can't think of another logical explanation. But yea, I agree, if you're switching trains make sure all stations are actually occupied.

If that is the case, and everybody everything "by the book" then think what must be going though thier heads. The Pink pilot knows he followed instruction to reverse and override MAPO. But he also knows that if he had noticed the tower was on the wrong side, he could have stopped -maybe.

If the story as discussed is true with Pink having been cleared to reverse onto Express through base, I don't know that anyone could have done anything in time. Purple was given an override to hold pretty much at the councourse entrance. By the time Pink knows s/he's on the wrong spur/line, the train is already in the station and moving at 15mph. It's 2am and dark, so the first indication would be seeing the glow of TTC platforms on the left instead of right. How long does is it take you to react to that? And, do you immediately think "Oh, my god, there's a train behind me, stop!" Or, do you think, "What's going on, why am I on the wrong track, what do I do?"

As for those on the platform, yea maybe they could have/should have reacted more quickly (and I bet every one of them is dealing with that emotion right now). But again, they don't know something's wrong until Pink enters the station. Then they, too, have to think about what's going on and react. Maybe they could have been quicker to do so because they may have noticed before the Pink driver, but you're talking about very little time for something so unexpected. That, and they're dealing with guest traffic, etc.

Lots' of woulda, coulda, shoulda's but I can't find fault in either driver or most of the platform staff (unless Central is one of those on the platform, then maybe a little - but still - if they thought the switch was thrown, they too would have to process why a train was coming through the station on the wrong line backwards and try to process what to do).

Very sad indeed.

 

[Slipknot]

I *believe* that it was a trainee and is trainer who had left the shop for the run. Shop threw switch #3 in their favor and the monorail proceed. However, the train went very slow through the area and shop assumed that the train had cleared the switch and threw it back in to its original position while the train was still over it.
So, the train continued across slowly and traversed and "open" track, creating an awful noise as the front of the train moved in one direction while the back moved in another. But the train was not heavily damaged.

This was in WDW.

This makes no sense to me. The monorails have to go through the switches 2-3 miles an hour. Once at the hold point that tells the pilot(s) are clear of the switch, they tell shop they are clear. Unless this happened before they implemented that rule...

 

[Hoop Raeb]

The procedure was posted a few pages back and answers these questions.

Just reread it. Agreed. Sorry about that.

So as I see it, the switch is the root cause of the accident. Why didn't it switch? Only two answers. Someone called for the switch and someone didn't switch it or there's a failure of the switch. Or a third possibility is human error that Pink thought they heard it was all clear but Central never cleared.

 

[JML42691]

Thank you. I too had read every post and was starting to become frustrated and thought I'd add what I knew about the system!

...

Gah that sounded confusing.

No problem, and don't worry, it made sense.

 

[haveyoumetmark]

I can't help but think why didn't the pilot of Purple radio to Central that another train was headed right towards him. I can't imagine it was too difficult to see in to the station, down the beam.
If he did, then I would assume that Pink was told to stop but it was too late at that point.

I feel the same way. Also, why didn't the station attendants cut power? How didn't Pink notice he was on the wrong rail? Obviously had he looked to the right, he would have noticed that there was no rail beside him... that should've been indicative of him being on the wrong rail, among many other indicators.

Many things don't match up. Hopefully some answers will arise as to how this was allowed to happen.

 

[Slipknot]

Or a third possibility is human error that Pink thought they heard it was all clear but Central never cleared.

Like I said before, Pink would have to repeat what they heard over the radio verbatim back to Central before doing anything...

 

[board57796]

I can't help but think why didn't the pilot of Purple radio to Central that another train was headed right towards him. I can't imagine it was too difficult to see in to the station, down the beam.
If he did, then I would assume that Pink was told to stop but it was too late at that point.

At that time of night, all of the trains were probably getting put into their positions to be taken out of service, so there COULD have been a lot of radio traffic. If Purple had tried to key in to yell at Central or Pink, and someone else was getting/giving instructions, all Purple would get is a loud beep in his ear.

 

[RiversideBunny]

Don't forget the 2am factor.
Very late afer a busy day.

The systems and procedures need to be as fool proof as possible and have double checks where human observations and clearances are needed.

IMHO

 

[lightboy]

It seems a lot of people are hung up on power and the MAPO system overrides. I feel that that is almost beating a dead horse.

It's obvious that Pink backed down the Epcot track into Concourse instead of backing up through the spur. We KNOW that during this operation, overrides must happen. The correct perfect storm happened, and two monorails collided. Period.

-----------------------

What I REALLY would like to ask for opinions on...is the following...

(1) After talking with MULTIPLE monorail pilots, they've all answered, "I definitely know when I'm backing through that switch" And the reason is...that you actually FEEL the train shift through a sharp left as you're backing onto the spur. They said it's very hard to not notice.

(2) If you pass ANY switches at night-time, they are lit. You'd be able to see as soon as the cab passes over the switch that you're on the wrong one, and Estop. AND Estop with sufficient room that your back car doesn't even enter the station.

(3) Monorail pilots also tell me...even if its dark, you'd be able to VISUALLY confirm you're on the wrong rail. If you were backing onto the spur, you'd be able to see the Epcot line DIRECTLY to your right (refer to Rob's picture).

-----------------------

It almost seems to me that if Pink was paying attention like he/she should have been...(and not even a GREAT deal of attention, these are all minor things)...then poor Austin would have went home that night. Lack of attention to the motion and position of his train, I think holds equally accountable as the switches not being in the right position.

You can blame it on the safety overrides all day. But he just wasn't paying a reasonable amount of attention. Now this could also deal with fatigue. But that also falls on the pilot to notify his/her manager that he/she was sleepy or exhausted.

And that I believe where experience comes in. This statement has NOTHING to do with age. Same as a airplane pilot learns the ins and outs of his/her aircraft...from airspeeds, to little changes in performance (they learn to "feel" the aircraft as they fly it)........I honestly believe a monorail pilot with extensive experience, would have noticed he was on the wrong beam. He would have noticed that it didn't "feel right" going through the switch, or perhaps the scenery looked different outside the cab.

And I "am" looking for critiques onto my opinion. If you feel I'm wrong, I have no problem with you telling me!

 

[TraceyC/FL]

Fox Orlando reporting 911 calls released...

I'm not sure i'm going to even click over to listen to them. The visual is enough

 

[RiversideBunny]

Just my humble observation on a few points.

It seems that so much routine use of the override funtion creates a serious hole in the automatic safety system.

Also, operating a monorail in reverse with the pilot sitting in what is now the rear of the train does not seem logical or safe.

Tks

 

[haveyoumetmark]

What I REALLY would like to ask for opinions on...is the following...

(1) After talking with MULTIPLE monorail pilots, they've all answered, "I definitely know when I'm backing through that switch" And the reason is...that you actually FEEL the train shift through a sharp left as you're backing onto the spur. They said it's very hard to not notice.

(2) If you pass ANY switches at night-time, they are lit. You'd be able to see as soon as the cab passes over the switch that you're on the wrong one, and Estop. AND Estop with sufficient room that your back car doesn't even enter the station.

(3) Monorail pilots also tell me...even if its dark, you'd be able to VISUALLY confirm you're on the wrong rail. If you were backing onto the spur, you'd be able to see the Epcot line DIRECTLY to your right (refer to Rob's picture).

This is EXACTLY what I'm saying.... thank you for saying it in a much more eloquently than I did. Pink had to have known that he was on the wrong rail...

 

[TraceyC/FL]

What I REALLY would like to ask for opinions on...is the following...

(1) After talking with MULTIPLE monorail pilots, they've all answered, "I definitely know when I'm backing through that switch" And the reason is...that you actually FEEL the train shift through a sharp left as you're backing onto the spur. They said it's very hard to not notice.

That is what i figured. You'd feel it.

..snipped...

It almost seems to me that if Pink was paying attention like he/she should have been...(and not even a GREAT deal of attention, these are all minor things)...then poor Austin would have went home that night. Lack of attention to the motion and position of his train, I think holds equally accountable as the switches not being in the right position.

You can blame it on the safety overrides all day. But he just wasn't paying a reasonable amount of attention. Now this could also deal with fatigue. But that also falls on the pilot to notify his/her manager that he/she was sleepy or exhausted.

I agree based on what i've heard here - if this IS how it played out.

Something caused a muck up on the driving side of pink. That person(s) involved will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.

The sad fact remains is that a family is mourning the loss of a loved one, the CM's are mourning the loss of one of their own. My thoughts are with them.....

 

[ewensell3]

This is EXACTLY what I'm saying.... thank you for saying it in a much more eloquently than I did. Pink had to have known that he was on the wrong rail...

Has Central ever directed someone to switch rails, and at the last moment changed their mind without announcing it? Could the driver have assumed Central simply changed their mind where they wanted the train based on previous experience?