Monorail Accident

[Phonedave]

OK, poaching this picture to ask my question.

Pink advances (in this picture left to right) on solid pink beam to switch point.

Switch is thrown and pink reverses onto the dashed pink beam, heading right to left. Wouldn't it get clear MAPO signals from all the sections on the dashed pink beam in the left direction ?

Or does the fact that a switch is thrown ANYWHERE on the loops put the entirity of both loops into MAPO block.

-dave

 

[Captain Hank]

Following an extensive safety inspection, and a few supplimentations to track switch safety proceedures, the monorail will be re-opening today. OSHA has released the system back to Disney.

 

[JML42691]

Dave, did someone say that MAPO has to be in override to reverse? Also, that other fellow in that link was saying that both pink and purple would have been in override and ignoring the red MAPO light because they both were assuming that it was because of the switch being opened not knowing that the red signal light was actually because of the close train proximity. Or wait, you're asking if pink *had* proceeded to the correct beam why would it continue in override. I guess maybe the override is necessary in reverse? :shrug: Or once the momentum is going in overide past the switch onto the express beam he wasn't going to stop to re-engage? :shrug:

I think once the switch has switched back to normal they no longer need the override, earlier in that great description the poster said that they will go 40mph in reverse back to the MK station, and if that is true then they would have to be out of override as the override top speed is 15mph.

 

[RiversideBunny]

Any chance that pink did not go far enough out and then did not reverse onto the correct track?

 

[JML42691]

...Wouldn't it get clear MAPO signals from all the sections on the dashed pink beam in the left direction ?...

I don't believe that any MAPO signals are generated on the spur line, so I believe that it would be receiving no signals and would have to be in override to avoid and E-Stop. I don't think that the MAPO signals continue through the switch segments.

 

[cnymike]

Any chance that pink did not go far enough out and then did not reverse onto the correct track?

Thing is they go out and stop at the pylon numbered correctly, so that is highly unlikely. Also, the operator would have had to have been thinking something was wrong if he watched the switch move in front of him.

Didn't Disneyland have a problem a few years back where the switch almost ripped a train in two?

 

[Phonedave]

Dave, did someone say that MAPO has to be in override to reverse? Also, that other fellow in that link was saying that both pink and purple would have been in override and ignoring the red MAPO light because they both were assuming that it was because of the switch being opened not knowing that the red signal light was actually because of the close train proximity. Or wait, you're asking if pink *had* proceeded to the correct beam why would it continue in override. I guess maybe the override is necessary in reverse? :shrug: Or once the momentum is going in overide past the switch onto the express beam he wasn't going to stop to re-engage? :shrug:

Right, thats my question

Purple sees a red MAPO because there supposed to see an open switch in front of it. Instead there is pink heading toward him, but the MAPO cannot tell the difference. The purple pilot sees nothing wrong because he is EXPECTING his MAPO to be red because of the switch.

Pink thinks he reversed through the switch but has not, and his MAPO is red because of purple being in the way.

My question is why would pink think the red MAPO is normal if he had reversed through the switch as planned. Woulding the two clear sections of track in front of him be broadcasting MAPO signals to his train?

-dave

 

[Phonedave]

Thing is they go out and stop at the pylon numbered correctly, so that is highly unlikely. Also, the operator would have had to have been thinking something was wrong if he watched the switch move in front of him.

Didn't Disneyland have a problem a few years back where the switch almost ripped a train in two?

I remember reading that somewere. Something about a train had to hold while it was still over a switch. The shop thought it had cleared and cycled the switch back.

Frantic yelling from the pilot alerted them otherwise.

I thought it was WDW, not DL though.

-dave

 

[PhotoDave219]

Thats a good question.

Seems like this was a 'Perfect Storm' case where errors start compounding other errors until an accident happens.

However.... Thats a long distance to be on a track and not realize you're on the wrong track.

 

[RiversideBunny]

OK, a basic question-

When reversing how much can a monorail driver see in the direction that the monorail is now going- anything?

That would seem to be a weak spot in the procedures if a monorail that is going in reverse does not have a human looking out along the track.

Tks.

 

[cnymike]

I think Disney should use this as an opportunity to look at things that should be upgraded.

1) The cheapest, put a camera in the other cab so the operator has eyes in the back while reversing.

2) MAPO overhaul. Technology has greatly evolved since this came into play. It needs to be able to tell the difference between a train, power outage, and a switch, and then on the drivers screen tell him why it's kicking in.

 

[Phonedave]

I don't believe that any MAPO signals are generated on the spur line, so I believe that it would be receiving no signals and would have to be in override to avoid and E-Stop. I don't think that the MAPO signals continue through the switch segments.

But BOARD##### (forget his sreen name, said the following)

Pylon 379 is the primary holdpoint for Concourse, meaning if a train is at the station, the train behind will stop at Pylon 379. Pylon 379 is right over the handicapped parking, by the way.

Last night, from what I have been told by people who had radios on them (and switching is really the only interesting thing going on at 2am) that Pink was "Clear to use MAPO Override, in reverse, through 9, through 8, THROUGH BASE, through Poly, through Grand Flo to the Magic Kingdom, switch ends" meaning, had the switches been aligned properly, Pink would have been expecting to reverse COMPLETELY through Base on Express and all the way to the MK. "CLEAR" from Central means you GO. Even if you get an MBS, you MAPO override. Clear is as good as gold, when given from Central.

Pink was supposed to be reversing on EXPRESS, but was insead on the RESORT loop.

I can understand no MAPO signals on a spur. But why would he be expecting a red MAPO while reversing on the EXPRESS beam? Unless its because if a switch is cycled anywhere it causes a red MAPO? Is that indeed the case ?

-dave

 

[cnymike]

If he just hopped beams and is going backwards, the only way to explain that would be to say MAPO is looking for signals ahead of his cab. Doing that, it sees the switch thrown to the spur track instead of continuing the loop.

 

[JML42691]

But BOARD##### (forget his sreen name, said the following)



Pink was supposed to be reversing on EXPRESS, but was insead on the RESORT loop.

I can understand no MAPO signals on a spur. But why would he be expecting a red MAPO while reversing on the EXPRESS beam? Unless its because if a switch is cycled anywhere it causes a red MAPO? Is that indeed the case ?

-dave

I'm not entirely positive how they receive the MAPO signals, but under my impression, if the switch behind him was moving back into position even after he passed through it, it would involve an incomplete circuit and thus a red MAPO signal in the cab, having to be overridden until the switch moved back into standard position.

 

[fosse76]

I think Disney should use this as an opportunity to look at things that should be upgraded.

1) The cheapest, put a camera in the other cab so the operator has eyes in the back while reversing.

I agree...or another easy way is to have a driver in the rear cab to drive it forward once it has switched off...then the driver in the original front cab can exit at the station when they pass and repeat the procedure with another train...or is it too difficult for the monorails to reverse directions that way?

 

[Hoop Raeb]

For whatever it's worth...

As of 1995 (again, based on the latest training manual I have), there was a seperate radio contact named "Switchbeam."

So, for example... To get from the shop into service on one of the main lines, the procedure outlined in the manual is as follows. Mono calls shop, gets clearance to MAPO override from the shop to the chiller plant. Holds at chiller plant and contacts Central. Central has pilot check PSI in braking / bag system, checks MAPO system, then clears mono to contact Switchbeam. Switchbeam clears mono to MAPO override to pylon 66 (on the exterior/express loop, between MK and Contemporary) via the switchbeam. Mono then transmits to all other trains what maneuver he is making, then verifies when he has cleared the switchbeam and arrived at Pylon 66. After that, they can stay on the express loop, or travel to the next switchbeam to access the Lagoon/resort beam, or the Epcot spurline switch to access the Epcot beam.

Thanks man.

 

[rcapolete]

I agree...or another easy way is to have a driver in the rear cab to drive it forward once it has switched off...then the driver in the original front cab can exit at the station when they pass and repeat the procedure with another train...or is it too difficult for the monorails to reverse directions that way?

i believe someone earlier posted that in order to change the controls from one end to the other the train would need to be rebooted

 

[JML42691]

I agree...or another easy way is to have a driver in the rear cab to drive it forward once it has switched off...then the driver in the original front cab can exit at the station when they pass and repeat the procedure with another train...or is it too difficult for the monorails to reverse directions that way?

From what we were told the trains have to be powered down and then rebooted from the other cab, and Disney decides to rather advance them clear of the current track in reverse and switch cabs at a later location (MK) in order to expedite switching for other trains and so passengers on trains behind the switching train are not stuck in the the train for several minutes. I have a feeling that this process will change drastically, even if it does mean people waiting for a few more minutes.

 

[hardcard]

Maintenance has installed track position sensors for the spur switches at the TTC..


Not sure if that was reported yet....... I didn't know if they could do it that quickly, but they did....

 

[board57796]

There are no MAPO transmittors on any of the switchbeams. Therefore, anytime a train moves across any switch (or down the spurline to shop) it has to be in MAPO override. So if Pink had been on the correct route, it would have had to MAPO override through switches 9 and 8, because there are no transmittors telling it where it is. Then, once it was passing through Base, the train would begin to "see" the transmittors behind it on the Express beam (the direction it is traveling), the MAPO would return to green, since the train was off the switch, the pilot would disengage MAPO Override, and continue in reverse on Express at normal operating speeds, with a Green MAPO.