WDW Monorail
Well-Known Member
That's not the problem (well it is but there was no way to see Purple at that time).
The concern here is why didn't Pink know it was not on the right beam.
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Monorail Accident
- Thread starter PatNSCT
- Start date
That's not the problem (well it is but there was no way to see Purple at that time).
The concern here is why didn't Pink know it was not on the right beam.
Figments Friend
Well-Known Member
Figment4Ever
Member
I saw that article and was surprised as well...
The same article said the onsite investigation will conclude soon but the full investigation could take a year.
Figments Friend
Well-Known Member
I really feel for Pink's pilot. Can you just imagine what that person must be going though emotionally right now??
Regardless of who may be the blame when all is said and done, my heart goes out to them.
What a horrible thing to have to live with....the self-guilt must be crushing. I hope in some way they are getting some sort of help, counciling, or the like.
Just imagine what all the OTHER pilots that night are feeling that were still working when it happened....the whole 'it could have been ME' thoughts in their heads must be numbing.
I really feel for ALL OF YOU out there on the beams this week!
Regardless of who may be the blame when all is said and done, my heart goes out to them.
What a horrible thing to have to live with....the self-guilt must be crushing. I hope in some way they are getting some sort of help, counciling, or the like.
Just imagine what all the OTHER pilots that night are feeling that were still working when it happened....the whole 'it could have been ME' thoughts in their heads must be numbing.
I really feel for ALL OF YOU out there on the beams this week!
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
Erm.....
The journalist in me says there's nothing wrong with what you posted. I print people's names that are in my photos/spot news reporting no matter what the context, although i generally avoid reporting victims.
I had asked you to fix your post so it could be made more difficult to figure out who the guy was and where to find it BUT two sites are now reporting it and its pointless. It will be everywhere by morning.
I won't post his name or where i found it.
Figment4Ever
Member
Edited the initial post to remove the info you don't repost in your reply...I went back and forth on how much to post as well, for the reasons you mentioned. I wouldn't have posted the name or the link to the article, but some of the other information in the article was relevant.
I've read pretty much every article that came out about this tragedy since it happened, and I feel absolutely horrible for what the pilot of pink must be going through, but unfortunately most of the news outlets seem to pick up the information from one source and just re-post it, so I'm sure the name will be out soon anyways
I've read pretty much every article that came out about this tragedy since it happened, and I feel absolutely horrible for what the pilot of pink must be going through, but unfortunately most of the news outlets seem to pick up the information from one source and just re-post it, so I'm sure the name will be out soon anyways
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
Edited...I went back and forth on how much to post as well, for the reasons you mentioned.
I've read pretty much every article that came out about this tragedy since it happened, and I feel absolutely horrible for what the pilot of pink must be going through, but unfortunately most of the news outlets seem to pick up the information from one source and just re-post it, so I'm sure the name will be out soon anyways
I totally agree.
His names out there and will more than likely be everywhere - unconfirmed by Disney, of course - by the morning news cycle.
And thanks.
I'm new here but as a former railroad employee, I am appalled by how many rule violations occurred in this incident if the WDW Monorail was operated as a real railroad with rules anywhere close to "standard" railroad rules (and despite the single rail, the Monorail is essentially a railroad). To make it worse, some of these rule violations appear to be incorporated into Monorail SOP.
From what we know, I see the following violations of "standard" railroad rules:
- Failure of the "Tower" (Monorail Central) to verify the proper route was set before giving permission for a train to pass a Stop signal (Red MAPO).
- Operation of the train on a Restricting signal (Overridden Red MAPO) at greater than Restricted speed (Restricted speed is defined as a speed enabling the train to stop with half the range of vision not exceeding (usually) 15 mph. Since Pink was backing blind, the operator had zero range of vision and therefore Restricted speed was zero - this is violation incorporated into SOP).
- Failure of the Pink operator to verify that he had the proper route (taking a wrong route and not immediately bringing your train to a safe stop is usually a termination offense on a real railroad).
- Operation by Pink past a Stop signal (Red MAPO). From what I've read, he was cleared to override to Base, then "normal" to MK. So when he got to what he thought was Base and still had the Red MAPO, why did he keep going when that was beyond the limit he was cleared for override operation?
(I might be wrong about where he should have received a green or yellow MAPO but from something I believe I read elsewhere, I believe it was as soon as the rear cab was on the Express beam).
I realize that I don't have full information but from what we know, I have to pin most of this on the Pink operator. Others apparently made mistakes but the reason he was up in that cab was to catch those mistakes (if that isn't the reason, you might as well automate the whole thing or run them all by remote control). While he and others were apparently routinely given the blind backup with Red MAPO override (which IMHO should never be permitted and was an accident waiting to happen), in the end, safe operation of the train is why he is there. It is or should be his responsibility to verify the route at every switch every time. Again, that is why he is there. If it was too dark for him to verify the route (which I doubt once the front was back past the switch), he should have stopped until he could verify the route (standard railroad rule 108 - In case of doubt or uncertainty, the safe course must be taken).
I now work for an airline and one of the axioms of plane crashes is that usually there is a chain of mistakes and catching any one of them would have broken the chain. That axiom certainly seems to be true here.
From what we know, I see the following violations of "standard" railroad rules:
- Failure of the "Tower" (Monorail Central) to verify the proper route was set before giving permission for a train to pass a Stop signal (Red MAPO).
- Operation of the train on a Restricting signal (Overridden Red MAPO) at greater than Restricted speed (Restricted speed is defined as a speed enabling the train to stop with half the range of vision not exceeding (usually) 15 mph. Since Pink was backing blind, the operator had zero range of vision and therefore Restricted speed was zero - this is violation incorporated into SOP).
- Failure of the Pink operator to verify that he had the proper route (taking a wrong route and not immediately bringing your train to a safe stop is usually a termination offense on a real railroad).
- Operation by Pink past a Stop signal (Red MAPO). From what I've read, he was cleared to override to Base, then "normal" to MK. So when he got to what he thought was Base and still had the Red MAPO, why did he keep going when that was beyond the limit he was cleared for override operation?
(I might be wrong about where he should have received a green or yellow MAPO but from something I believe I read elsewhere, I believe it was as soon as the rear cab was on the Express beam).
I realize that I don't have full information but from what we know, I have to pin most of this on the Pink operator. Others apparently made mistakes but the reason he was up in that cab was to catch those mistakes (if that isn't the reason, you might as well automate the whole thing or run them all by remote control). While he and others were apparently routinely given the blind backup with Red MAPO override (which IMHO should never be permitted and was an accident waiting to happen), in the end, safe operation of the train is why he is there. It is or should be his responsibility to verify the route at every switch every time. Again, that is why he is there. If it was too dark for him to verify the route (which I doubt once the front was back past the switch), he should have stopped until he could verify the route (standard railroad rule 108 - In case of doubt or uncertainty, the safe course must be taken).
I now work for an airline and one of the axioms of plane crashes is that usually there is a chain of mistakes and catching any one of them would have broken the chain. That axiom certainly seems to be true here.
Mary Poppins
Member
I saw this as well. My heart stopped when I saw they included the name.
fotofx
Well-Known Member
Just came across this.. The main image on the page is a nice shot of purple.
http://world.nycsubway.org/us/disney/
http://world.nycsubway.org/us/disney/
pondermatic
New Member
There is a story (bottom of this page) about the shop moving a switch because they assumed enough time had passed for the train to cross it.
Here's a theory. What if something similar happened to monorail pink? 1) The shop moves the switches to the spur line. 2) A communication breakdown happens. Pink doesn't move. Time passes. 3) The shop assumes that it's OK to move the switch back to the Epcot beam. 4) Pink reverses.
Someone mentioned that power to the beam section that pink was on would be down while the switch was being moved. What indications would the pilot see? How noticeable is it? Does the air conditioning shut off?
Another theory... Could it be possible that the switched was moved to the spur and then immediately moved back again?
Here's a theory. What if something similar happened to monorail pink? 1) The shop moves the switches to the spur line. 2) A communication breakdown happens. Pink doesn't move. Time passes. 3) The shop assumes that it's OK to move the switch back to the Epcot beam. 4) Pink reverses.
Someone mentioned that power to the beam section that pink was on would be down while the switch was being moved. What indications would the pilot see? How noticeable is it? Does the air conditioning shut off?
Another theory... Could it be possible that the switched was moved to the spur and then immediately moved back again?
haveyoumetmark
Well-Known Member
I saw the same article. While it was mildly informative, it was incredibly tasteless of the journalists to attempt an interview and mention the Pink pilot's name! Kudos for editing it out of your post.
Still feeling like crap about the situation. I can't imagine what the other folks who were on the rails that night are going through. I realize that the Pink pilot should've realized he was on the wrong rail, but the same goes for the employees in the concourse. It was pretty evident that those trains were on a collision course! Since when is it normal for a train to reverse through the station on the Epcot beam? This is just bad. :[
WDW1974
Well-Known Member
Disney is going to get slammed for this ... no doubt about that ... it may have been 'human error' but that excuse only goes so far when corners are cut, procedures aren't followed or changed (even due to 'guest complaints' over waiting etc) when people die.
The Mouse really needs to be repetent beyond belief and fundamentally change this constant cutting of anything or anyone of value ... funny how all the old-timers who are ripping the change in procedures are largely not with the company ... but these new guys know best ...
This may have only happened once ... but the reality is it was disaster that was a decade plus in the making.
Yet again, you can't toss out the playbook that made you what you were (we all know safety is NUMBER ONE, right?) and be ignorant enough to think things will stay the same.
So sad, so stupid and so preventable.
The Mouse really needs to be repetent beyond belief and fundamentally change this constant cutting of anything or anyone of value ... funny how all the old-timers who are ripping the change in procedures are largely not with the company ... but these new guys know best ...
This may have only happened once ... but the reality is it was disaster that was a decade plus in the making.
Yet again, you can't toss out the playbook that made you what you were (we all know safety is NUMBER ONE, right?) and be ignorant enough to think things will stay the same.
So sad, so stupid and so preventable.
WDW1974
Well-Known Member
And just wait until one of those overloaded buses, packed with kids, flips on one of those twisty off-ramps on a rainy night ... that will make this seem like a walk in the park, sadly.
Disney needs to wake up to the fact that 15 years of growth with no new rails, no new watercraft, cuts behind the scenes in everything from maintenance to experienced railies has resulted in a mess that will likely require a few billion dollars and some vision to fix.
You actually believe Disney's got that?
You also probably believe Test Track isn't Six Flags-like when it comes to cleanliness and show quality too!
Disney needs to wake up to the fact that 15 years of growth with no new rails, no new watercraft, cuts behind the scenes in everything from maintenance to experienced railies has resulted in a mess that will likely require a few billion dollars and some vision to fix.
You actually believe Disney's got that?
You also probably believe Test Track isn't Six Flags-like when it comes to cleanliness and show quality too!
CaptainMichael
Well-Known Member
Nothing the sheriff cannot handle
TraceyC/FL
New Member
I didn't hear it all/see if (folding clothes), but a family friend of Pink's driver read a statement from him/family. It was daylight when it was taped.
Like i said, i didn't hear it all - but i have Fox Orlando on this morning.
unkadug
Follower of "Saget"The Cult
I agree. I certainly hope that Disney opens their eyes.
DougK
Well-Known Member
You are 100% correct as usual 74. And as much as you (and I - but I'm not as famous on these boards as you) complain about the dumbing down of Disney, the Dining Plan ruining the restaurants, etc. now we are dealing with the death of an innocent, and by all accounts an excellent, CM. That makes our other complaints pale by comparison, but it is all part of the same thing, constant corner-cutting at WDW. I mean, I can't even believe these monoroails were alowed to go backwards with apparently no visibilty. I always just assumed the driver went to the "back" which was then the "front" so he was facing forward when he drove the other direction. Even if this was only done at the end of the day when they were removing monorails from service, this one simple thing, NOT ALLOWING THEM TO GO BACKWARDS, would have absoultely prevented this accident. And Austin would be alive.
This had better make Disney management wake up. And I think it will, I am not one of those people who thinks they are evil, but they have lost sight of the big picture and become complacent, about alot of things. And this is haunting me even though of course I did not know him: they can sprinkle all the pixie dust they want, Austin is not coming back.