Monorail Accident

[LorangeJuice]

Sorry, I know this is a long thread, but I wanted to bump this for "board" especially after reading his last post (or any other monorail pilot who can chime in).

It's a rambly post, but basically, what I was wondering was if it was possible for the trains to move after the collision if they were E-Stopped or in Reverse?

I have been keeping up with most of this thread as well. My condolences go out to Austin and his family.

I think "board" has fleshed out the scenario as best as possible at this point, but I am still having trouble understanding how and why the trains entered concourse after the collision occured just outside the station over the TTC plaza.

I know there have been posts regarding the Pink pilot bringing the train back into concourse on first instinct after hearing the crash. Maybe he thought the trains were not as entangled as they actually were. This would explain why the trains were moved which I thought they never should have been for 2 reasons: 1.) never move injured persons and 2.) any movement may cause more debris to possibly fall into the TTC plaza where guests may have been (reports say that debris had already fallen there at the time of impact).

But without going further into that speculation, could the fact that the trains moved further indicate what happened? Assuming that Pink was able to pull Purple, would the Pink pilot be able to 'feel' that he was doing so and then react to that? Would the fact that Purple was dragged indicate that it was not in E-Stop mode? (This would perhaps require a further explanation into E-Stop - i.e., does that mean that the Emergency brakes were applied?). Wouldn't this also indicate that Pink never entered E-Stop either (at least until it moved further into Concourse - maybe a CM there put the train(s) into E-Stop after seeing that Pink was now dragging Purple) because it would need to be rebooted? This is also assuming that E-Stop would trigger after the MAPO override button was disengaged. Feel free to let me know if I am way off track here. Would the fact that Purple may have been in reverse also have a similar effect (not being able to be dragged by Pink)?

Also, how did the Pink pilot evac? The way the trains were positioned under Concourse would put the Pink pilot cab outside of the station. There were some posts reporting that Pink drove back into Concourse to evac himself, but I don't think this make any sense because then how would the trains have proceeded to the last position they were in on Sunday morning?

Any thoughts?

 

[board57796]

LorangeJuice

I read your post earlier and, to be honest, this is the one part of the whole accident I really have absolutely NO clue about how to explain and was scratching my head about it. If the trains impacted just outside the station, that would have meant Pinks operating cab, with Pilot, would have been inside the station. I would assume the CMs on the station would have realized what happened, and maybe motioned for Pink to pull forward, not realizing the severity of the impact (but knowing there had at least been some collision) and saw Purple being dragged my Pink? If Purple had indeed been in Reverse, then its MAPO would have been green and its EBrakes disengaged.

Truly, I am at a loss for how the trains ended up as they did, unfortunately.

Also, the alarm that is heard sounding in the background of "the video" is one I've never heard before. Its not for power being lost at the station, I know that (in fact I think the station still had power, because the beacon on Pink is clearly operating.)

 

[unkadug]

Perhaps they did use the new evac vehicle? :shrug:

 

[Figments Friend]

The facebook memorial page indicates there will be a vigil in Celebration on Saturday (in addition to the funeral tomorrow)

Thanks for that....

:wave:

 

[LorangeJuice]

LorangeJuice

I read your post earlier and, to be honest, this is the one part of the whole accident I really have absolutely NO clue about how to explain and was scratching my head about it. If the trains impacted just outside the station, that would have meant Pinks operating cab, with Pilot, would have been inside the station. I would assume the CMs on the station would have realized what happened, and maybe motioned for Pink to pull forward, not realizing the severity of the impact (but knowing there had at least been some collision) and saw Purple being dragged my Pink? If Purple had indeed been in Reverse, then its MAPO would have been green and its EBrakes disengaged.

Truly, I am at a loss for how the trains ended up as they did, unfortunately.

Also, the alarm that is heard sounding in the background of "the video" is one I've never heard before. Its not for power being lost at the station, I know that (in fact I think the station still had power, because the beacon on Pink is clearly operating.)

Thanks. I didn't want to bump it to be annoying, but it was really making me scratch my head too. I was hesitant to even ask in the first place since I didn't want to get into another speculation debate after you did such a great job explaining the system and the procedures.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Perhaps they did use the new evac vehicle? :shrug:

Darn good question.

Anyone with RCES know what they responded with?

 

[board57796]

I'm confused by "new evac vehicle." Do you mean did they use something to tow the trains into the station?

 

[unkadug]

I'm confused by "new evac vehicle." Do you mean did they use something to tow the trains into the station?

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=460188&highlight=evac

 

[JohnByers]

that video showing Austin with the grandparents and their grandson was absolutely wonderful. I made it thru the video just smiling and laughing, her letter however tore me up as it was most definately the hightlight of our last trip (riding with the pilot), my two boys 5 and 7 LOVED it.............. RIP Austin.

 

[bobaloo000]

LorangeJuice

I read your post earlier and, to be honest, this is the one part of the whole accident I really have absolutely NO clue about how to explain and was scratching my head about it. If the trains impacted just outside the station, that would have meant Pinks operating cab, with Pilot, would have been inside the station. I would assume the CMs on the station would have realized what happened, and maybe motioned for Pink to pull forward, not realizing the severity of the impact (but knowing there had at least been some collision) and saw Purple being dragged my Pink? If Purple had indeed been in Reverse, then its MAPO would have been green and its EBrakes disengaged.

Truly, I am at a loss for how the trains ended up as they did, unfortunately.

Also, the alarm that is heard sounding in the background of "the video" is one I've never heard before. Its not for power being lost at the station, I know that (in fact I think the station still had power, because the beacon on Pink is clearly operating.)

Need to read this thread. Does a great job summarizing what most likely occured. http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=461803

 

[board57796]

Need to read this thread. Does a great job summarizing what most likely occured. http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=461803

Sounds like what I had posted a couple days ago: http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showpost.php?p=3615698&postcount=766

 

[Monorail_Orange]

Sounds like what I had posted a couple days ago: http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showpost.php?p=3615698&postcount=766

I'll vouch for you if anyone's too lazy to read the whole thread

 

[board57796]

I'll vouch for you if anyone's too lazy to read the whole thread

Thank you Although others had touched on it. I just offered to fill in the details.

 

[jimjmb8]

As a former pilot, I agree with Board 57796. Although I have a few questions that hopefully a current pilot can answer.
1. Since when were you allowed to go through the switches at 15 mph? When I worked there 3 years ago, you were not supposed to go through at no more than 3 mph.
2. Is the shop now allowed to clear the monorails all the way around the track?
I was taught that central was in charge of the main tracks and shop was in charge of spurs.
3. When was the policy changed to go through the switches in reverse?

I would like to add a little information as a former pilot. I know that policies may have changed, but this is how I remember switching from epcot to the main spur. I do not remember all the hold points. But it went like this. I will leave out the radio traffic since he explained it earlier. After pink deadheaded at epcot concourse the pilot would switch ends. The pilot would then call central with a radio check and await instructions. Central would then have pink go to pylon XX in reverse, hold and notify. Central would then have pink await instructions from shop. Central would then notify shop where pink was, and then switch beams from main line to spur line. At this time pink would lose power while the switch is moved. After the switch is moved pink regains power and shop would tell pink to MAPO override to pylon XX. MAPO override would be required due to the spur line being open at the TTC. Once the transfer is made pink would notify shop, shop would switch the beam back to the main line. During this time central would set the monorails on the express line to the proper hold points to allow pink to enter the TTC. Once the other monorails are in position shop would switch the spur line to the express line, and pink would repeat the same procedure as before. All this is usually done at closing time at the Magic Kingdom to allow the monorails to clear the guests from the park. I know that this is a bit long, Sorry.

 

[MarkIV_railie]

It looks like a couple of top hatches were poped. I assume the pilot had to go up to get out? :shrug:

I saw that the rear hatches on Purple were open, including the cab and rear car, I believe it was from the Sunday noon local news helicopters. I do not know why and that added to the confusion of which way the trains were headed and which cab was the operating cab.... unless somebody had to make sure the train was empty after the crash.

I did not see the hatches on Pink ever opened. But that could simply be because somebody closed the hatch after they used it. Since Pink should have had a single occupant in the cab, I would assume they would just use the bucket truck to get to him or her. Any chance that Pink had a trainer & trainee in it?

 

[MarkIV_railie]

Even though one pilot has mentioned that he thinks switching problems might be common, you can't argue with 38 years of service without an incident - until now.

Umm, no... it has not been 38 years without incident. It was 38 years without a fatality. RIP, Austin.

Overruns, mistakes, near misses have happened. I can only speak for myself and what I know and observed 25 years ago, which is before "Central" even existed.. we had "base" and "concourse" leads.

 

[board57796]

As a former pilot, I agree with Board 57796. Although I have a few questions that hopefully a current pilot can answer.
1. Since when were you allowed to go through the switches at 15 mph? When I worked there 3 years ago, you were not supposed to go through at no more than 3 mph.
2. Is the shop now allowed to clear the monorails all the way around the track?
I was taught that central was in charge of the main tracks and shop was in charge of spurs.
3. When was the policy changed to go through the switches in reverse?

I would like to add a little information as a former pilot. I know that policies may have changed, but this is how I remember switching from epcot to the main spur. I do not remember all the hold points. But it went like this. I will leave out the radio traffic since he explained it earlier. After pink deadheaded at epcot concourse the pilot would switch ends. The pilot would then call central with a radio check and await instructions. Central would then have pink go to pylon XX in reverse, hold and notify. Central would then have pink await instructions from shop. Central would then notify shop where pink was, and then switch beams from main line to spur line. At this time pink would lose power while the switch is moved. After the switch is moved pink regains power and shop would tell pink to MAPO override to pylon XX. MAPO override would be required due to the spur line being open at the TTC. Once the transfer is made pink would notify shop, shop would switch the beam back to the main line. During this time central would set the monorails on the express line to the proper hold points to allow pink to enter the TTC. Once the other monorails are in position shop would switch the spur line to the express line, and pink would repeat the same procedure as before. All this is usually done at closing time at the Magic Kingdom to allow the monorails to clear the guests from the park. I know that this is a bit long, Sorry.

The Epcot-Express switches can be taken at 15 because the transition is much smoother than the switches from Express-Resort/Shop. As you probably remember, the switches from Shop cause the beam to go from being a straight line to a kink of I'd say 30 degrees left or right. When you go over them at walking speed, the train sounds like its ripping apart (that is an exaggeration, just in case any media here would like to misquote me...) because of the extreme angle. The Epcot switches, however, are a much smoother transition, as you can see from the aerial photos, the beam has a large sweep, so there is no abrupt change in direction like the older switches. In fact, going in reverse over an Epcot switch is hard to tell the difference from going over the switch when it is lined up to the Main beam, because the only "jolt" you feel is the joint line, which is there whether the switch is lined to the spur or not. Unlike the old switches. Hope that makes sense.

 

[board57796]

I saw that the rear hatches on Purple were open, including the cab and rear car, I believe it was from the Sunday noon local news helicopters. I do not know why and that added to the confusion of which way the trains were headed and which cab was the operating cab.... unless somebody had to make sure the train was empty after the crash.

I did not see the hatches on Pink ever opened. But that could simply be because somebody closed the hatch after they used it. Since Pink should have had a single occupant in the cab, I would assume they would just use the bucket truck to get to him or her. Any chance that Pink had a trainer & trainee in it?

Negative.

 

[Phonedave]

My point was more that there's nothing in a system that seems to work to cause Disney to think of a need for extra expenses to fix something that isn't broken. I maintain my car, but I don't go out of my way to replace parts that are working. When the time comes to replace the whole car, I'll look at better safety systems and better options...

That I can agree with. My posts about safety, operational, and telemetry updates were not meant in a "this is another case of Disney management not doing required updates" way. It was more of a "OK, lets get at least something positive our of this young man's death, and ensure that the system is upgraded to a point where this type of accident should not happen again"

I am assuming that the monorail "family" works much the same as most other work crews in any industry. You look out for your own. If sombody does something and sombody else catches the error, then nobody reports it. You work with each other, and you cover each others rear. It is a totaly understandable thing to do, its human nature. However what it does do is masks any problems that may be manifesting. Thats why management should be performing ride alongs, spot checks, quality reviews, etc. I am not placing ANY blame with ANY party. It just that I have seen this sort of thing numerous times. I have reviewed industrial accidents and have seen this very thing happen.



-dave

 

[KeeKee]

Umm, no... it has not been 38 years without incident. It was 38 years without a fatality. RIP, Austin.

Overruns, mistakes, near misses have happened. I can only speak for myself and what I know and observed 25 years ago, which is before "Central" even existed.. we had "base" and "concourse" leads.

Thank you for correcting that. I had meant to say without a fatality. Even though there were other incidents, the record of this monorail system stands head and shoulders above any other mass transit system in the world. It's absolutely amazing.