Monorail Accident

[hardcard]

The fact that the one past CM/Pilot on here said that during his time there were many instances where he was told by Controll to MAPO override into situations where either a switch was open or another train was present tells me that the system indeed does not work as designed, and that only the skill and total error free operation of the pilots prevented similar accidents. the fact they remained accident free for 38 years amazes me now. People make mistakes, thats part of being human. People have bad days - maybe they are under the weather, maybe their mind is elsewhere for a few minutes, maybe they just make a mistake. A properly designed system should be designed so that multiple people need to make mistakes and a system fault occurt to cause an accident.



-dave

Don't Blame disney to that extreme, there are millions of jobs performed every day that are potentially deadly if performed without skill, and with error..

Makes no difference.. If you fail, you fail.

 

[golden redhead]

Also, how did the Pink pilot evac? The way the trains were positioned under Concourse would put the Pink pilot cab outside of the station. There were some posts reporting that Pink drove back into Concourse to evac himself, but I don't think this make any sense because then how would the trains have proceeded to the last position they were in on Sunday morning?

Any thoughts?

It looks like a couple of top hatches were poped. I assume the pilot had to go up to get out? :shrug:

I heard about this on Sunday when I was getting ready for my 9:30am shift. My thoughts and prayers are with Austin's family at this difficult time.

 

[Timon]

The system was installed 38 years ago. Why would they spend potentially hundreds of thousands on a modern control centre for a system that until this past weekend had a near-flawless record with no fatalities?

Corrective measures have apparently already been taken and there may be more to come. Perhaps the recommendations from the investigation report will include a totally automated monorail system completely controlled by computers [I hope not - I enjoy interacting with the pilots]. Perhaps a full array of sensors and tracking of each train by computer would be enough? Maybe it will be determined that the added sensors they've apparently just installed along with protocol changes will be all that's needed?

We can speculate all we want, but the facts will eventually come out and appropriate measures put in place if they aren't already.

Granted the parts of the Monorail system are 38 years old but changes have been made over the years, sometimes just to fix a obvious safety flaw or spurred on by a previous accident. After the Monorail fire, all Mark IV's had extinguishers, phones, roof hatches and hand rails added. Those features became standard on the Mark VI trains plus with the advancement of technology, on-board computers gave more information and control to the pilot. Disneyland's MarkVII's have all these features plus video cameras in each car and exterior (don't know about a backup camera)

But as smart as a train/pilot is, there is a need for a Monorail Dispatcher in a "real" control center with the "Big Picture". Some guy with a radio can not possible know where all trains are, how fast, on manual override, switch status and just keep track of everything in his head. Other than giving orders via radio he is completely powerless.

A computer tracking system would have spotted Pink switching to reverse detected Blue in the way and after automated radio warnings powered down the track before Pink got anywhere near the Station.

Personally I think the trains should be manually operated "out of tradition" but WDW needs a professional Control Center that really "controls and supervises" as another layer of safety.

 

[board57796]

I'm still catching up on the posts from overnight, but I thought I'd make an observation here.

Austin may very likely deserve even more props for his actions if this truly is the case. Even if the train had not yet been able to gain any real momentum in reverse before the impact, The fact the train was attempting to move in the direction of the impact energy before the actual impact very likely could've helped to lessened the impact and damage taken by that collision.

If the train was still Estop'd, or even just stopped, then Purple would not have been able to absorb the impact as "well" as it did. (That just feels wrong to say considering someone died). By trying to get the train to move away from the incoming Pink, It likely allowed more of the impact energy to be dissipated along the "normal" travel along the beam, instead of being spent in further distruction that could've resulted in either more injuries (the people inside Purple, or the surround area from debris), or property damage (the Beam or train running gear...potentially making it that much more difficult to move the trains to evac the guests in purple, or get to Austin, or even to shield the grim scene from people who don't need/want the reminder of what happened).


I really kind of hope that if it is conclusively determined that Austin threw the train into reverse instead of "hitting the deck", or jumping to safety, or any number of other things, that he is officially called out and recognized as a hero who's actions helped ensure the wellbeing of guests (and strangers) even if it cost him his life.

If the train was in fact switched into Reverse by Austin, then he knew something was going badly wrong, because putting a train into Reverse on the open beam without Centrals instructions is one of our 6 "NEVER-DO"s. So for him to put the train in reverse without Centrals permission meant he knew something was wrong.

 

[fosse76]

The system was installed 38 years ago. Why would they spend potentially hundreds of thousands on a modern control centre for a system that until this past weekend had a near-flawless record with no fatalities?

You can say that about almost anything with a great safety record. The potential for an accident was always there...just because one hadn't happened doesn't mean it couldn't.

 

[jmicro59]

You can say that about almost anything with a great safety record. The potential for an accident was always there...just because one hadn't happened doesn't mean it couldn't.

And just because one did, doesn't mean another one will.

 

[Phonedave]

Don't Blame disney to that extreme, there are millions of jobs performed every day that are potentially deadly if performed without skill, and with error..

Makes no difference.. If you fail, you fail.

Go back and read what that one CM posted a few posts back. He said when he was a monorail pilot there were plenty of times when Controll told him he was clear to override MAPO and move in a certain direction and if he had followed thier directions, he would have hit another train or traversed an open switch.

The other poster made this comment "If Control tells you are are clear, then thats as good as gold, and you go"

If you put those two ideas together, then you have a real problem.

The right way to do somthing like overide the MAPO would be to have Control and the Pilot verify each other - much like they do already with their raido communications where they repeat their commands back to each other.

In this case however it seems to be the communications between Control and the Shop. A simple commuatator in both the Shop and Control would have prevented this. "Control, Shop. Switch 8 is open to spur" "Shop, Controll, my panel still shows Switch 8 closed - please confirm"

Heck, we do stuff like that even when lives are not at stake. Before you cut a cable your verify it, tone it, and then talk on it. You don't rely on one persons test to be the defining go/no go.

-dave

 

[Rob562]

It looks like a couple of top hatches were poped. I assume the pilot had to go up to get out? :shrug:

Unless I'm mistaken, the roof hatches are only in the passenger compartments, not in the cabs on either end. (Unless there are special hatches on the end that I've missed)

The popped hatches were probably from emergency personnel using them to gain easy/fast access to the top of the train. (There's one photo way back in this thread showing someone standing on top of Purple in the station, just behind the damaged section)

It looks like Pink's front cab stopped with the cab's door above the awning covering the Resort-to-Epcot guest walkway. If that awning was safe to bear weight, he/she probably was able to hop out onto that.

-Rob

 

[Ralphlaw]

Phonedave seems to sum up the problem. One Pilot says the word from control is as good as gold, and another says that these switching problems are relatively common. Obviously this puts the type of pressure on Pink that we all worry about: What to do when given the clearance, but personal observation should expose the problem? So I have 2 questions for clarification:

1. Is the clearance to back up sometimes wrong?
2. What training or procedures are in place for those times when the switching does not occur?

I suppose this then leads to a 3rd question:

3. Have close calls happened before?

Thanks for your enlightenment.

 

[KeeKee]

Even though one pilot has mentioned that he thinks switching problems might be common, you can't argue with 38 years of service without an incident - until now.

 

[Monty]

Safety rules change all the time as we learn better and safer ways to do thing.

In the past you used to monitor the atmosphere in a confined space on a regular basis, every so many minutes you took a reading. Now, you use continous monitoring - why the change ?. Part of the reason is the prices on GasTraks has come down to levels where they are not insanely expensive. So now you use them. The old way was good, the new way is even better.

The fact that the one past CM/Pilot on here said that during his time there were many instances where he was told by Controll to MAPO override into situations where either a switch was open or another train was present tells me that the system indeed does not work as designed, and that only the skill and total error free operation of the pilots prevented similar accidents. the fact they remained accident free for 38 years amazes me now. People make mistakes, thats part of being human. People have bad days - maybe they are under the weather, maybe their mind is elsewhere for a few minutes, maybe they just make a mistake. A properly designed system should be designed so that multiple people need to make mistakes and a system fault occurt to cause an accident.

It sounds from that one post (and yes it is only one post, and is in fact anicdotal evidence) that an awful large amount of the time, what is relied on to prevent accidents is the ability of the pilots to correct Control.

-dave

Granted the parts of the Monorail system are 38 years old but changes have been made over the years, sometimes just to fix a obvious safety flaw or spurred on by a previous accident. After the Monorail fire, all Mark IV's had extinguishers, phones, roof hatches and hand rails added. Those features became standard on the Mark VI trains plus with the advancement of technology, on-board computers gave more information and control to the pilot. Disneyland's MarkVII's have all these features plus video cameras in each car and exterior (don't know about a backup camera)

But as smart as a train/pilot is, there is a need for a Monorail Dispatcher in a "real" control center with the "Big Picture". Some guy with a radio can not possible know where all trains are, how fast, on manual override, switch status and just keep track of everything in his head. Other than giving orders via radio he is completely powerless.

A computer tracking system would have spotted Pink switching to reverse detected Blue in the way and after automated radio warnings powered down the track before Pink got anywhere near the Station.

Personally I think the trains should be manually operated "out of tradition" but WDW needs a professional Control Center that really "controls and supervises" as another layer of safety.

You can say that about almost anything with a great safety record. The potential for an accident was always there...just because one hadn't happened doesn't mean it couldn't.

My point was more that there's nothing in a system that seems to work to cause Disney to think of a need for extra expenses to fix something that isn't broken. I maintain my car, but I don't go out of my way to replace parts that are working. When the time comes to replace the whole car, I'll look at better safety systems and better options...

 

[board57796]

I personally have never seen/heard Central accidentally put two trains close together. Doesn't mean its never happened (apart from this incident).

 

[KeeKee]

This is a link to a photo on my Flickr account that was posted 8 days ago of Monorail Purple. It is now dedicated to Austin's memory...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kikifl/3670967777/

 

[PKD]

Here is a sweet video of Austin driving a family on MonoRail Red

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...ail-austin-wuennenberg-070709,0,2265988.story

 

[KeeKee]

Here is a sweet video of Austin driving a family on MonoRail Red

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...ail-austin-wuennenberg-070709,0,2265988.story

That is just the best video! A wonderful way to think of him...

 

[BirdsOfPreyDave]

I will be wearing my purple Mono pin for the following week as a tribute to Austin, as well as all Trans CMs on Property. You guys ( and gals) have my condolences, appreciation, and THANKS.

"One Rail, One Family"

Thank you so much for posting this.

It's strange that hundreds of miles away, and with no affiliation with the transportation cast community except having been their guest many times, that I'd feel such a personal connection when hearing the news of the accident and Austin's death on CNN. I turned the TV off with a tear in my eye. It touched me again to read on here of his bravery to remain at the controls and attempt to back his train, obviously aware of the peril he was personally in.

I can't imagine the impact of this tragedy on Cast Members, and of course the devastation to his family. I've posted condolences on several boards, but would like to do more to show my support. After reading Figments Friend's comments, I found a purple monorail pin on EBay. I'm not into pin trading, and don't wear a lanyard while I'm at Disney. But I'll find a place to wear this pin during our upcoming trip to memorialize Austin, and to symbolize my condolences to all WDW cast members on your loss.

Thank you for the joy you bring us on our vacations, even when you're hurting inside.

- Dave

http://members..net/birdsofpreydave/Purple.jpg

 

[PKD]

That is just the best video! A wonderful way to think of him...

If you scroll down and read the letter the Grandmother wrote, person who is filming, you will be touched.

 

[Figment4Ever]

that video is so sweet it made me cry, but it's a little freaky when the guy asks if he can see behind him and he answers that no he'd have to go outside...and that there's not a lot of monorails.

But I love that it runs on magic - and electricity!

 

[KeeKee]

If you scroll down and read the letter the Grandmother wrote, person who is filming, you will be touched.

I've been handling this thing pretty well until watching this video and reading the letter. Wow! That's powerful. I want to remember him through the eyes of this family and not the horrible pictures that flashed around the world this weekend...

 

[soarin' cisco]

Such a great video and a great way to remember him by.

I found it very sad though that when he was asked if he could see behind him he answered no and that he would have to go outside to see.