Ziggie
Member
He's the larger of the two men you see in the crash scene video. The one in the striped shirt.
The other guy was an off-duty firefighter from Miami-Dade.
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Monorail Accident
- Thread starter PatNSCT
- Start date
He's the larger of the two men you see in the crash scene video. The one in the striped shirt.
The other guy was an off-duty firefighter from Miami-Dade.
DznyGrlSD
Well-Known Member
- In the Parks
- Yes
God Bless him. AND he's a former Castmember :sohappy::sohappy:
TraceyC/FL
New Member
I can't imagine going thru that... and his family. I"m pretty sure that if i had this happen to me in the future - i'd try to "hit the deck".
iubigman
Active Member
Internet Message Boards after Tragedies
I guess in all my years reading and posting on this board and others, I am still amazed by the amount of BS and self-aggrandizing blaming after something horrible happened.
To be fair, much of this thread includes thoughtful discussion of why what happened happened by people familiar with the technical details of the Monorail system, and the Reedy Creek/WDW reaction.
However, many posts on this thread are just moronic. Blaming all of WDW management with an "I told you this would happen" snarky post just has no place in this discussion. Blaming the Reedy Creek dispatchers is also just silly.
Let's lay it on the line and state what happened:
Monorail Pink was on MAPO overdrive, got on the wrong spur, and backed into Monorail Purple. That is all we know FOR SURE, until the data from the data recorders are released.
Something must have gone wrong in the system, but the driver of Monorail Pink also made a grave human error. It's also possible, though less likely, that Austin Wuennenburg made a drastic error as well, but we do not know that. That does not make his death less tragic, nor his life less wonderful, it is just a possible fact.
Why this happened is important. Both drivers were probably over-worked, which can lead to these sorts of things, and is something Disney needs to look into. Their reaction to this tragedy may say more about the company than the fact it occurred in the first place.
Tragic accidents happen. They happen due to technical errors, and human errors. We need to assess events and place blame, where appropriate and necessary, in order to prevent them from happening in the future. However, so often in our culture, whether online or in the "real" world, we assess blame to appease our own demons and desires. No shouting at WDW management, or the Reedy Creek dispatchers will bring Mr. Wuennenberg back to his family, or erase from the mind of the Pink driver the tragedy of Sunday morning's events.
I guess in all my years reading and posting on this board and others, I am still amazed by the amount of BS and self-aggrandizing blaming after something horrible happened.
To be fair, much of this thread includes thoughtful discussion of why what happened happened by people familiar with the technical details of the Monorail system, and the Reedy Creek/WDW reaction.
However, many posts on this thread are just moronic. Blaming all of WDW management with an "I told you this would happen" snarky post just has no place in this discussion. Blaming the Reedy Creek dispatchers is also just silly.
Let's lay it on the line and state what happened:
Monorail Pink was on MAPO overdrive, got on the wrong spur, and backed into Monorail Purple. That is all we know FOR SURE, until the data from the data recorders are released.
Something must have gone wrong in the system, but the driver of Monorail Pink also made a grave human error. It's also possible, though less likely, that Austin Wuennenburg made a drastic error as well, but we do not know that. That does not make his death less tragic, nor his life less wonderful, it is just a possible fact.
Why this happened is important. Both drivers were probably over-worked, which can lead to these sorts of things, and is something Disney needs to look into. Their reaction to this tragedy may say more about the company than the fact it occurred in the first place.
Tragic accidents happen. They happen due to technical errors, and human errors. We need to assess events and place blame, where appropriate and necessary, in order to prevent them from happening in the future. However, so often in our culture, whether online or in the "real" world, we assess blame to appease our own demons and desires. No shouting at WDW management, or the Reedy Creek dispatchers will bring Mr. Wuennenberg back to his family, or erase from the mind of the Pink driver the tragedy of Sunday morning's events.
wild01ride
Well-Known Member
Not that it makes any difference in the outcome at this point, but I'm very curious about this post and the implications that it has on the scenario.
Of course, "board" doesn't want to implicate anyone or disclose any information that will incriminate anyone, but this post makes it sound like there is some particular factor about the situation existing with Control on the night of the accident. Specifically, the fact that he mentions that Control "can possibly be anywhere on property."
Of course, I think it's been established that it is not imperative for Control to be in the tower, but at the same time, it's been pointed out that even visual identification of a problem could have gone a long way in this case.
Again, hindsight is 20/20, but it seems like there were numerous oversights and negligence for procedure and visual checking in this case.
Regardless, it sounds as if it may have been widely known among those involved that night that Control was not present.
board57796
New Member
To put a train in reverse requires it to be going at "Zero Speed" which means the computer needs to be registering no speed in order for the train direction to be switched. IF a train is switched into reverse at 1-2 mph (depends on the train, some can be even at 3mph) the train will get a "Train Control" which stops the train and requires the pilot to open a circuit breaker cover behind him, locate the proper override switch, engage the switch and wait for a couple seconds for it to be registered, and hold this switch down while moving the train with the other hand. I just can't imagine seeing a strobe light on the back of a train barreling towards you and I'm glad to know Austin had the sense to at least try to reverse his train. The beam there is only about 15 feet up, and instead of jumping out and leaving his passengers alone he did everything he could to avoid the collision. MAPO override wouldn't have been needed, because his train could "see" the beam as all clear behind him and given him a Green. But if he had panicked a bit and flipped reverse before the train had stopped completely and got a Train Control (which will be registered in the log) there really isn't enough time to get the train moving.
Firewolfe51
Member
lol i knew i was ging to get blasted for the dispatcher comment.I was not blaming them at all, and i know about all the call takers and line operators. AND i have been in RCFD dispatch (not in the room but up to the glass they are behind) Its not that big. then for the BOO BOO truck comment I have worked in the comm center for fp/pd and ambulance and most not all are IDIOTS! RCFD does not have that many line personnel.....so send em all! They have more trucks and equipment than rear ends to sit in them to drive! my point was send the people some help! this was clearly a miscommunication on the tracks that ended BAD. LAST NOTED as many people as the monorail system carries each day and 1 fatal accident in 38 years THAT IS A FINE RECORD and DANG FINE GOOD JOB!
mickey2008.1
Well-Known Member
well put iubigman. I said that a while ago. lets just see what they say before we place blame and make people feel worse. Tragedies happen, it just happened in our playground this time.
elisatonks
Active Member
I know for a fact he wasn't, he had been working for the company for a while. He started on rock and roller coaster at DHS before transfering to mororails. my prayers are with Austin's family, i have on occassion worked with him and he loved his job.
cdunbar
Active Member
Board, is it physically possible for a computer, such as this one, to fail in the aspect that there was speed but the computer did not register it? Meaning that just like you and I can in our vehicles they can just suddenly throw it into reverse. Maybe that was a completly uneducated question, but I really do not know much about these kinds of computers. :wave:
Timon
Well-Known Member
One of the weak spots WDW has is technically there is no control room staffed whenever the tracks are powered. The Control booth on the Epcot platform at TTC is the default Control room but lacks train tracking monitors, control of the switches and cameras from every station.
The Las Vegas Monorail, 3.9 miles and nine sets of M-VI trains are very similar to WDW's trains with one exception - no pilots and full automation. They also have this:
[/IMG]
This is a pre-opening picture of the operations room for a 3.9mile system which handles 20,000 people a day.
Where is Disney's? For a 14 mile system handling an average of 150,000 people a day this is inexcusable. A room like this can be built anywhere on property and all mass transit systems that have WDW's passenger volume have one. There has to be an always manned station with a "dispatcher" someone who has the big visual picture of where every train is and how every switch is set with cameras to back that up. It should be backed up with total control to move switches and de-powered track sections. With computerized train tracking this would have been caught and stopped when Pink hit reverse.
The Las Vegas Monorail, 3.9 miles and nine sets of M-VI trains are very similar to WDW's trains with one exception - no pilots and full automation. They also have this:
This is a pre-opening picture of the operations room for a 3.9mile system which handles 20,000 people a day.
Where is Disney's? For a 14 mile system handling an average of 150,000 people a day this is inexcusable. A room like this can be built anywhere on property and all mass transit systems that have WDW's passenger volume have one. There has to be an always manned station with a "dispatcher" someone who has the big visual picture of where every train is and how every switch is set with cameras to back that up. It should be backed up with total control to move switches and de-powered track sections. With computerized train tracking this would have been caught and stopped when Pink hit reverse.
As a layman and frequent WDW guest, I'm quite surprised to hear that this does not exist. I just assumed there was somebody who would have an omniscient view. It's surprising to know that this was able to happen with (seemingly) nobody noticing and nobody able to hit a kill switch.
KeeKee
Well-Known Member
One of the weak spots WDW has is technically there is no control room staffed whenever the tracks are powered. The Control booth on the Epcot platform at TTC is the default Control room but lacks train tracking monitors, control of the switches and cameras from every station.
The Las Vegas Monorail, 3.9 miles and nine sets of M-VI trains are very similar to WDW's trains with one exception - no pilots and full automation. They also have this:
[/IMG]
This is a pre-opening picture of the operations room for a 3.9mile system which handles 20,000 people a day.
Where is Disney's? For a 14 mile system handling an average of 150,000 people a day this is inexcusable. A room like this can be built anywhere on property and all mass transit systems that have WDW's passenger volume have one. There has to be an always manned station with a "dispatcher" someone who has the big visual picture of where every train is and how every switch is set with cameras to back that up. It should be backed up with total control to move switches and de-powered track sections. With computerized train tracking this would have been caught and stopped when Pink hit reverse.
This one's a no-brainer. Hope WDW is taking note. Seems like a small investment to make considering the consequences of not having this type facility...
I'm still catching up on the posts from overnight, but I thought I'd make an observation here.
Austin may very likely deserve even more props for his actions if this truly is the case. Even if the train had not yet been able to gain any real momentum in reverse before the impact, The fact the train was attempting to move in the direction of the impact energy before the actual impact very likely could've helped to lessened the impact and damage taken by that collision.
If the train was still Estop'd, or even just stopped, then Purple would not have been able to absorb the impact as "well" as it did. (That just feels wrong to say considering someone died). By trying to get the train to move away from the incoming Pink, It likely allowed more of the impact energy to be dissipated along the "normal" travel along the beam, instead of being spent in further distruction that could've resulted in either more injuries (the people inside Purple, or the surround area from debris), or property damage (the Beam or train running gear...potentially making it that much more difficult to move the trains to evac the guests in purple, or get to Austin, or even to shield the grim scene from people who don't need/want the reminder of what happened).
I really kind of hope that if it is conclusively determined that Austin threw the train into reverse instead of "hitting the deck", or jumping to safety, or any number of other things, that he is officially called out and recognized as a hero who's actions helped ensure the wellbeing of guests (and strangers) even if it cost him his life.
LorangeJuice
Active Member
I have been keeping up with most of this thread as well. My condolences go out to Austin and his family.
I think "board" has fleshed out the scenario as best as possible at this point, but I am still having trouble understanding how and why the trains entered concourse after the collision occured just outside the station over the TTC plaza.
I know there have been posts regarding the Pink pilot bringing the train back into concourse on first instinct after hearing the crash. Maybe he thought the trains were not as entangled as they actually were. This would explain why the trains were moved which I thought they never should have been for 2 reasons: 1.) never move injured persons and 2.) any movement may cause more debris to possibly fall into the TTC plaza where guests may have been (reports say that debris had already fallen there at the time of impact).
But without going further into that speculation, could the fact that the trains moved further indicate what happened? Assuming that Pink was able to pull Purple, would the Pink pilot be able to 'feel' that he was doing so and then react to that? Would the fact that Purple was dragged indicate that it was not in E-Stop mode? (This would perhaps require a further explanation into E-Stop - i.e., does that mean that the Emergency brakes were applied?). Wouldn't this also indicate that Pink never entered E-Stop either (at least until it moved further into Concourse - maybe a CM there put the train(s) into E-Stop after seeing that Pink was now dragging Purple) because it would need to be rebooted? This is also assuming that E-Stop would trigger after the MAPO override button was disengaged. Feel free to let me know if I am way off track here. Would the fact that Purple may have been in reverse also have a similar effect (not being able to be dragged by Pink)?
Also, how did the Pink pilot evac? The way the trains were positioned under Concourse would put the Pink pilot cab outside of the station. There were some posts reporting that Pink drove back into Concourse to evac himself, but I don't think this make any sense because then how would the trains have proceeded to the last position they were in on Sunday morning?
Any thoughts?
I think "board" has fleshed out the scenario as best as possible at this point, but I am still having trouble understanding how and why the trains entered concourse after the collision occured just outside the station over the TTC plaza.
I know there have been posts regarding the Pink pilot bringing the train back into concourse on first instinct after hearing the crash. Maybe he thought the trains were not as entangled as they actually were. This would explain why the trains were moved which I thought they never should have been for 2 reasons: 1.) never move injured persons and 2.) any movement may cause more debris to possibly fall into the TTC plaza where guests may have been (reports say that debris had already fallen there at the time of impact).
But without going further into that speculation, could the fact that the trains moved further indicate what happened? Assuming that Pink was able to pull Purple, would the Pink pilot be able to 'feel' that he was doing so and then react to that? Would the fact that Purple was dragged indicate that it was not in E-Stop mode? (This would perhaps require a further explanation into E-Stop - i.e., does that mean that the Emergency brakes were applied?). Wouldn't this also indicate that Pink never entered E-Stop either (at least until it moved further into Concourse - maybe a CM there put the train(s) into E-Stop after seeing that Pink was now dragging Purple) because it would need to be rebooted? This is also assuming that E-Stop would trigger after the MAPO override button was disengaged. Feel free to let me know if I am way off track here. Would the fact that Purple may have been in reverse also have a similar effect (not being able to be dragged by Pink)?
Also, how did the Pink pilot evac? The way the trains were positioned under Concourse would put the Pink pilot cab outside of the station. There were some posts reporting that Pink drove back into Concourse to evac himself, but I don't think this make any sense because then how would the trains have proceeded to the last position they were in on Sunday morning?
Any thoughts?
Monty
Brilliant...and Canadian
- In the Parks
- No
The system was installed 38 years ago. Why would they spend potentially hundreds of thousands on a modern control centre for a system that until this past weekend had a near-flawless record with no fatalities?
Corrective measures have apparently already been taken and there may be more to come. Perhaps the recommendations from the investigation report will include a totally automated monorail system completely controlled by computers [I hope not - I enjoy interacting with the pilots]. Perhaps a full array of sensors and tracking of each train by computer would be enough? Maybe it will be determined that the added sensors they've apparently just installed along with protocol changes will be all that's needed?
We can speculate all we want, but the facts will eventually come out and appropriate measures put in place if they aren't already.
Corrective measures have apparently already been taken and there may be more to come. Perhaps the recommendations from the investigation report
We can speculate all we want, but the facts will eventually come out and appropriate measures put in place if they aren't already.
Phonedave
Well-Known Member
Safety rules change all the time as we learn better and safer ways to do thing.
In the past you used to monitor the atmosphere in a confined space on a regular basis, every so many minutes you took a reading. Now, you use continous monitoring - why the change ?. Part of the reason is the prices on GasTraks has come down to levels where they are not insanely expensive. So now you use them. The old way was good, the new way is even better.
The fact that the one past CM/Pilot on here said that during his time there were many instances where he was told by Controll to MAPO override into situations where either a switch was open or another train was present tells me that the system indeed does not work as designed, and that only the skill and total error free operation of the pilots prevented similar accidents. the fact they remained accident free for 38 years amazes me now. People make mistakes, thats part of being human. People have bad days - maybe they are under the weather, maybe their mind is elsewhere for a few minutes, maybe they just make a mistake. A properly designed system should be designed so that multiple people need to make mistakes and a system fault occurt to cause an accident.
It sounds from that one post (and yes it is only one post, and is in fact anicdotal evidence) that an awful large amount of the time, what is relied on to prevent accidents is the ability of the pilots to correct Control.
-dave
TraceyC/FL
New Member
I completely agree.
I truly am not sure if i could have not hit the deck - but then again, i'd NOT hit the deck if it was my kids behind me and it meant saving them, so i'm guessing the feeling is the same.
I hope too that Disney is gracious and forthcoming in a settlement to the family. This isn't something that should play out in a court of law. Step up to the plate and admit the wrong/screw up and move on.
And a question on the technical side - would it be at all possible for the system to automatically shift ITSELF into reverse if the computer detected the gap closing? Or at least in that case making it not quite so hard to get going backed up?