Monorail Accident

[majortom1981]

board57796, I must thank you for provided us all with your insight.

I have another question to ask if you do not mind. Why do pilots drive "forward" out of the Epcot Line station (I believe you called it Concourse) and then proceed across the spur and up to the Magic Kingdom in "reverse"? Would it not be possible to leave in "reverse" and then proceed "forward" through the spur, around Seven Seas Lagoon and straight to the barn?

If you did it that way wouldnt there be a train in your way ?

 

[board57796]

board57796, I must thank you for provided us all with your insight.

I have another question to ask if you do not mind. Why do pilots drive "forward" out of the Epcot Line station (I believe you called it Concourse) and then proceed across the spur and up to the Magic Kingdom in "reverse"? Would it not be possible to leave in "reverse" and then proceed "forward" through the spur, around Seven Seas Lagoon and straight to the barn?

Yep its perfectly possible, however usually the first train off goes out forward, because once it is at 30 the train behind can MAPO Override into Concourse to unload. Basically, they send the first one (this case Pink) off forward to expedite the unloading of the train behind (this case Purple) so we don't have Guests getting angry at the wait time. To switch ends at Concourse would take longer, due to having to reboot the train.

I'm sure that plan will be rethought....

Just for reference, at TTC, the Resort line is known as "Base Resort" the Express line is known as "Base" and the Epcot line is "Concourse". "EPCOT" is the station physically at Epcot.

 

[board57796]

So basically it sounds like the problem is that nobody was in central to tell the monorail pilot that he was on the wrong track with a little of that being contributed to the monorail trains not giving the pilots enough info and having to rely on central.

Does that sound right?

Pretty much. Like I said a "CLEAR" from Central means they are sure there are no trains in your way. In this case, that wasnt true. It would have been true had the switches been aligned properly.

 

[majortom1981]

Pretty much. Like I said a "CLEAR" from Central means they are sure there are no trains in your way. In this case, that wasnt true. It would have been true had the switches been aligned properly.

If no one is actually in central where do the commands come from ?

 

[board57796]

If no one is actually in central where do the commands come from ?

"Central" can refer to the physical tower, or the person acting as "Central"

"Central" the person carries a portable Nextel and can possibly be anywhere on property.

 

[majortom1981]

"Central" can refer to the physical tower, or the person acting as "Central" GENERALLY, they are in the tower or very close to it (ie somewhere at the TTC station) but this was not the case last night. Thats all the info I am comfortable sharing about that as the investigation is still going on.

"Central" the person carries a portable Nextel and can possibly be anywhere on property.

OH i see so i am guessing the console in the actual tower shows what the switch was doing but since the person acting as central wasnt at it they didnt know the switch screwed up .


Oh boy . Not Good.

PS thanks for the info board57796

 

[TalkingHead]

"Central" can refer to the physical tower, or the person acting as "Central" GENERALLY, they are in the tower or very close to it (ie somewhere at the TTC station) but this was not the case last night. Thats all the info I am comfortable sharing about that as the investigation is still going on.

"Central" the person carries a portable Nextel and can possibly be anywhere on property.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge on this. That's outrageous that Central doesn't have to be physically present at the station.

Just out of curiosity, is "Central" just a position that any hourly CM could occupy in rotation like Load, Merge, Unload, etc? Or is it more akin to a Coordinator's or Manager's title? The Nextel makes it sound more like the latter...

 

[DisneylandRRGuy]

I thought I would like to add is this.

When I work on the DLRR, a conductor has to be at the back to the train to be the eyes and ears for the engineer.

I think from NOW on when they back up a monorail they will have someone at the back of the train looking out at what's ahead.

Again its VERY sad that we lost a Cast Member today. He will always be part of the Monorail family. Thank you.

 

[RareWare]

GENERALLY, they are in the tower or very close to it (ie somewhere at the TTC station) but this was not the case last night. Thats all the info I am comfortable sharing about that as the investigation is still going on.
"Central" the person carries a portable Nextel and can possibly be anywhere on property.

Sounds like my program in 2007. Some things never change.

My condolences go out to the CM and his family. I was in both of these monorails only a week ago. Not sure which one I rode in the front of though.

 

[Rob562]

I know some people are better at mentally visualizing things than others, so I drew up this *very* rudimentary diagram.
(I apologize, as MSPaint + flaky mouse = jiggly lines)

Under *normal* track-switching procedures as described by board57796, a train being switched from the Epcot beam to Express would leave the TTC and follow the beam marked in solid pink. When they reached the far right-hand side, they would stop, wait for the switch to move, and then drive backward along the dotted pink beam to the Express beam. Following the end-of-night procedures, they'd continue on through the station and continue heading toward the Polynesian in "reverse".

But, according to board57796's hypothesis/description, what apparently happened is that Pink followed the solid pink beam, stopped, and then backed up along the same solid pink beam. I've marked Monorail Purple's location in blue. Once Pink passed through the station, it collided with Purple approximately where the blue line ends on the beam, in the area between the ticket booths and the station.

-Rob

 

[board57796]

I know some people are better at mentally visualizing things than others, so I drew up this *very* rudimentary diagram.
(I apologize, as MSPaint + flaky mouse = jiggly lines)

Under *normal* track-switching procedures as described by board57796, a train being switched from the Epcot beam to Express would leave the TTC and follow the beam marked in solid pink. When they reached the far right-hand side, they would stop, wait for the switch to move, and then drive backward along the dotted pink beam to the Express beam. Following the end-of-night procedures, they'd continue on through the station and continue heading toward the Polynesian in "reverse".

But, according to board57796's hypothesis/description, what apparently happened is that Pink followed the solid pink beam, stopped, and then backed up along the same solid pink beam. I've marked Monorail Purple's location in blue. Once Pink passed through the station, it collided with Purple approximately where the blue line ends on the beam, in the area between the ticket booths and the station.

-Rob

Exactly. It depends on different circumstances whether the train is cleared THROUGH base or TO base, and in last nights case Pink was cleared THROUGH base, as you describe, explaining why he went right through Concourse, which he mistakenly thought was Base.

To TalkingHead, Central is only attainable after being a trainer, then coordinator, then you are trained for Central. It's a "high up" position in rails.

 

[Space Mountain]

Im not trying to make too much of what you said, but hoping that it was this CM's fault or human error, so that the monorail stays up and running and isnt down for an extended time period bothers me a bit. Im not one to make waves, but this kind of thinking would place a huge hurt on family members etc if there would have been other casualties involved if not this CM's casualty alone.

I could care less if the monorail is down for a year, as long as the issue is fixed and it doesnt happen again.

Again, not making waves, just wanted to express a different outlook. :wave:

I understand completely. What I was trying to say is that with a system error, it can effect monorail transportation systems globally. Each have their own "MAPO" system and could (possibly) all be affected.

In either case, human or mechanical error, I understand what happened and am completely shocked and upset.

 

[hardcard]

I know some people are better at mentally visualizing things than others, so I drew up this *very* rudimentary diagram.
(I apologize, as MSPaint + flaky mouse = jiggly lines)

Under *normal* track-switching procedures as described by board57796, a train being switched from the Epcot beam to Express would leave the TTC and follow the beam marked in solid pink. When they reached the far right-hand side, they would stop, wait for the switch to move, and then drive backward along the dotted pink beam to the Express beam. Following the end-of-night procedures, they'd continue on through the station and continue heading toward the Polynesian in "reverse".

But, according to board57796's hypothesis/description, what apparently happened is that Pink followed the solid pink beam, stopped, and then backed up along the same solid pink beam. I've marked Monorail Purple's location in blue. Once Pink passed through the station, it collided with Purple approximately where the blue line ends on the beam, in the area between the ticket booths and the station.

-Rob

perfect depiction.. If this is what happened, then the failure is at the switch level, and the responsibility lies there..


After a quick policy change, I would expect the monorails to be up and running within a few days..

New policy? I'm betting it will now be manditory to stop at base..... in other words..

Clear to Base
Verify In Base
Clear through Base

that, and in the short term, I'd expect a mandatory central in tower for a while, as well as a visual verification of switch status until monitoring systems can be installed..

As far as the system being down long term.... Unless there is no other way (and I mean NO other way) possible, it will return shortly.. MK cannot survive on make-shift bus routing and Ferries for a long haul.. even when the Mark IV's came online and the platform at contemporary was being modified, they STILL ran them in shuttle mode from the TTC straight through resorts to MK and then back that way..

I don't think some realize how important the system is, as far as a 'moving people'.....

 

[majortom1981]

perfect depiction.. If this is what happened, then the failure is at the switch level, and the responsibility lies there..


After a quick policy change, I would expect the monorails to be up and running within a few days..

Its a switch problem, and staff problem. It can be up and running in no time but should it be up that fast. Its all a matter on how i would guess florida state handles it. They could say yes the staff corrections are acurate and the switch has been fix go haead and run them again or they could make disney keep them down till a more permanent fix can be done.

I am guessing we wont know that till disney releases a press statement.

 

[TalkingHead]

To TalkingHead, Central is only attainable after being a trainer, then coordinator, then you are trained for Central. It's a "high up" position in rails.

I'm trying to keep in mind that we don't officially know what happened last night, even though board57796 clearly knows what he's talking about.

But that said, the implications of what board57796 is describing really infuriate me, as a former CM.

It's bad enough that a CM died last night doing his job. It's even worse *if* he died because of Central's incompetence.

I wouldn't put my life in the hands of many of the Coordinators and Managers that I met. I knew some good ones, but I saw too many who were never around when you needed them. One of them was called "Useless" as a nickname, if that gives you any idea.

Like I said, I'll be interested to see what really happened, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the negligence of a "higher-up" is to blame. If so, TDO really needs to do some soul-searching. It's one thing not to build any new attractions, it's another when your management teams fail to understand the overriding importance of safety.

 

[HMF]

Like I said, I'll be interested to see what really happened, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the negligence of a "higher-up" is to blame. If so, TDO really needs to do some soul-searching. It's one thing not to build any new attractions, it's another when your management teams fail to understand the overriding importance of safety.

Maybe' but I don't see a Paul Pressler-type figure in this case.

 

[Frizzbird]

First off I just want to say that along with everyone else, my condolences go out to all that have been personally impacted by this horrible accident. It is insane for me to think that a guy just a few months older than myself died. With our similar ages, it is not hard to imagine him as a friend. To think that he has family and friends who are suffering through the loss of a loved one is just heartbreaking.

I have been reading this thread since I woke up this morning. I took a 8 hr break for work, but other than that I have read pages 31-56 straight through. It took until around page 53 to find some really credible information.The bickering and fighting was truly tedious and hopefully has been put to rest. Thanks to Board57796 for the addition of that reliable info. While that info is not the "official" cause of the accident I know that at least my curiosity has been assuaged.

Hopefully some good will come out of this horrible accident. While the system has worked for 35+ years without a crash, there seems to be some holes that had the potential to create this disaster. Hopefully these have now been brought to light and will be resolved.

May Austin's soul rest in peace.

 

[disneyorbust09]

How are people getting around now? Just buses?

 

[dmagickingdom]

Disney towed Monorail Pink and Purple away last night so now TTC is clear. Disney also checked the monorails in DisneyLand to ensure they were operating properly. Everything checked out ok so they had operation as normal at DL. There currently is no indication whether or not WDW monorail transportation will resume yet. Obviously in a few minutes or less resort guests surrounding MK would know.

If they are still 10-7, then buses will shuttle guests along with watercraft that normally operates between the resorts in Seven Seas Lagoon.

 

[TraceyC/FL]

WESH is reporting (and showing aerial footage) that the trains were removed. But they had a nose of one out of a station. Of course, that was the story as i turned on the TV and missed all of it too.

I had to skip the last 5 pages of the thread this morning....

http://www.wesh.com/news/19963457/detail.html

Video from Chopper 2 on Monday morning showed the trains had been moved from the location of the crash, and there were no other monorails visible on the tracks at the time.