lincolnjkc
New Member
I stand corrected; the (fortunately) few times I've needed to call 911 I've been explicitly told that police/fire/medical was en route before the "fact finding" questions started.
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Monorail Accident
- Thread starter PatNSCT
- Start date
I stand corrected; the (fortunately) few times I've needed to call 911 I've been explicitly told that police/fire/medical was en route before the "fact finding" questions started.
talonstruck
Member
One reason why the Pink Pilot was probally taken to the hospital was to secure labs for a drug test as part of the investigation.
KYMouseFan
Member
Reading through the most if not all pages of the thread I see no mention of capabilities of direct Mono-to-Mono communication. If there had been direct communication capabilities between Purple/Pink maybe this could have been prevented or at least minimized. I know that is potentially adding another communication into the mix, but this is one instance where direct communication could have saved a life. I wonder if this is something that has been or is now being considered. If not for "regular" communication, it could be used only in emergencies or potential emergency situation (collisions, switches, etc.)
Question for monorail pilots....Over the radio, do you have communications only between your specific monorail, Central, and/or shop? It may be worth while to have communications for potential emergency communications between monorails on the same loops at the same time. I understand it could be very confusing listening to potentially 12-15 voices at once if all monorails could communicate with each other or the system may get abused, but there should be away to communicate from monorail-to-monorail for situations like this. At least some type secondary communication....just my two cents worth...
Question for monorail pilots....Over the radio, do you have communications only between your specific monorail, Central, and/or shop? It may be worth while to have communications for potential emergency communications between monorails on the same loops at the same time. I understand it could be very confusing listening to potentially 12-15 voices at once if all monorails could communicate with each other or the system may get abused, but there should be away to communicate from monorail-to-monorail for situations like this. At least some type secondary communication....just my two cents worth...
Ziggie
Member
Just watched our late local news. It seems one of the guys attempting to help right after the crash was a West Palm Beach firefighter.
Bless his heart.
Bless his heart.
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
board57796
New Member
All transmissions made throughout the day are heard by ALL trains, all platforms, central, shop, coordinators, etc. Naturally, listening to the radio is a tasking job, which explains why some pilots may "zone out" as a guest is asking them a question. Everyone involved in Monorail Ops hears all transmissions. For example, if Central wants to talk to Silver, they would say "Monorail Silver, Central." When the pilot in Silver hears this they respond with "Silver by" and this is all broadcast over every radio in the system.
luckyeye13
New Member
If I remember correctly, there are cameras pointed to each of the switches and these are monitored back in Monorail Shop. There used to be someone who was dispatched to the switches to visually confirm proper movement, but the cameras replaced that.
Based on when I worked there, no. It takes some effort to position the trains for a switch and then to call for the switch to be moved. Even if there was a last-minute change, the pilots would be instructed accordingly.
Even if a pilot is getting a red MBS for the track ahead, it has no bearing on the train's ability to reverse. The trains see in the direction in which they are being piloted, so, as long as the track behind Monorail Purple was clear, the MBS would have turned green as soon as the train was switched to reverse. The only problem is that this does take a few seconds and it could still have been a few seconds too many to make much of a difference.
No, this is incorrect. A MAPO (red MBS) clears as soon as the condition causing it to appear is resolved. For example, in normal opearation, it would clear as soon as the train in front (to which the train receiving the red MBS was too close) continued far enough forward. First, the MBS would turn amber, then, as the train ahead moved on, the MBS would turn green. Likewise, if a train has a MAPO while moving forward, throwing the train in reverse would quickly change the MBS to green if the track behind the train is clear for the required distance. The only issue here is that it takes a few moments for the brakes to be released after an e-stop of any kind.
Now, with the possibility of reversing in question, there is something very important to keep in mind. In fact, it is something that most Monorail pilots (myself included back in 2006) learn very quickly after they start driving. In order for a train to be placed in reverse, it is absolutely essential that it be stopped first, then put in reverse. If this is not done, the train will realize that it is being told to go in reverse, but it knows it is still moving forward. This will result in a train control failure and an automatic e-stop and will require use of the train control override (one of the switches located on the panel behind the pilot) to get the train moving at (I think) 20 mph into the next station, where the train would be reset. Just as it was my first instict to immediately flip the switch to reverse when I overshot Base (TTC on the Express side) by quite a few cars, it may have been the pilot's first instict to flip the switch as soon as he saw Pink rolling towards him. At that point, it would most likely have been too late to grab for the override switch and get Purple to move.
Although I am no longer a WDW Cast Member and did not know this particular Cast Member, this incident really fills me with sadness. From everything that I have read, he seemed like a really great guy and my friends in Monorails who did know him have been saying the same thing. I feel for his friends and family and for all of the Monorail Cast Members. I am proud to count many of those Cast Members as my friends and I know that they will pull through this stronger than ever. One Rail, One Family!
GenerationX
Well-Known Member
Is there any way that Purple could have been moving forward before the collision (since Pink was supposed to be out of the way)? If that is the case, it would have been all the more difficult for Purple to hit reverse and would have given Pink even less time to stop. Regardless, the details as I've been able to discern from this thread make it sound like this is a 1 in a 1,000,000 combination of events. How incredibly sad and tragic. 
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Eye witnesses say the collision took place just south of the station, above the plaza between the stations and the ticket booths. This is north of the hold position which is over the parking lot. So Monorail Purple was most likely moving forward at some point before the collision.
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
Here's a good explanation of how that could have happened -> http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showpost.php?p=3615698&postcount=766
Simply because the train was not at the hold point is no proof of anything beyond it wasn't at the hold point.
It may take 6 months but the full NTSB report will be public record and we will all have full answers and recommendations. And Disney won't like that one bit.
All of my sources (and a lot of other people's including eyewitnesses) say that Purple was holding outside of the station. The link above explains how that is likely even without Purple being at the hold point.
Simply because the train was not at the hold point is no proof of anything beyond it wasn't at the hold point.
It may take 6 months but the full NTSB report will be public record and we will all have full answers and recommendations. And Disney won't like that one bit.
All of my sources (and a lot of other people's including eyewitnesses) say that Purple was holding outside of the station. The link above explains how that is likely even without Purple being at the hold point.
JROK
Member
Thanks for that link PhotoDave, really helped give an interesting scenario... I'm still weary about the whole override thing, especially when a switch is thrown... From what I read, if the switch is thrown on the otherside of the Concourse, meaning there's no track ahead, and the monorail entering is on override, the only thing stopping them from blowing through the station and off the track is the pilot... Seems a little scary, but I conclude that the 38 year track record proves it's nothing to be alarmed by...
So what we can hypothesize is that the Pink Pilot thought they were on MK Express and proceeded in reverse as per usual, but was in fact still on the Epcot line and ran right into Purple... Very sad indeed... I wonder how long of a shift the Pink Pilot had been working... This happening at 2am may effect how late Disney keeps their parks open in the future...
So what we can hypothesize is that the Pink Pilot thought they were on MK Express and proceeded in reverse as per usual, but was in fact still on the Epcot line and ran right into Purple... Very sad indeed... I wonder how long of a shift the Pink Pilot had been working... This happening at 2am may effect how late Disney keeps their parks open in the future...
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
I think Disney is long overdue with some oversight and accountability. I believe their mindset and management culture is thinking along those same lines, "It hasn't happened in 38 years so It will never happen."
That and to rely so much on radios for clearances beyond visual inspections and to not have a precise GPS fix on their trains (like the busses) is just mindblowing.
That and to rely so much on radios for clearances beyond visual inspections and to not have a precise GPS fix on their trains (like the busses) is just mindblowing.
Fievel
RunDisney Addict
Ok...a couple points coming from an officer here:
First off - kudos to the firefighter who jumped in and helped. It doesn't matter if you are on duty or not, your instincts and training kick in when something happens around you, and you know that you are one of the best people immediately available to help. He did exactly what I hope that anyone would do that could help.
Second - Let's not get too critical of the dispatchers. I work with dispatch constantly, and their job is to get information and relay it to the officers/deputies on the streets. More than likely, this is a multiple person dispatch. While one person takes the information, another pages out the fire/ems/police. This allows one person to concentrate on getting as much information as possible out to the streets, which is why he kept asking if there were any injuries, and kept asking people to check. Nobody really gave a good "yes, the monorail pilot is badly injured" answer, only "I'm sure there are." Dispatch was probably looking for specifics as to number and severity of injuries so they could ascertain whether or not to send multiple EMS units to the scene, or contact outside help if more were needed.
Also, a couple of the calls were very vague and used code that we as disney fans would understand, but how many dispatchers would understand "TTC" or "base". The first caller stated that there was a problem, but had no idea what happened because he was instructed to call. After the first call, the dispatchers probably consulted what information they had, and quickly got familiar with the territory, which is why on subsequent calls, they were asking which line the accident was on. A dispatcher has to get the most important information out there, and has to do it quickly, while trying to be as accurate as the calls allow him/her to be. You heard Dispatch asking the "exact location" of the emergency - this was probably an attempt to tell first responders exactly where to go when they get there, so they don't have to figure it out when they arrive. There is a mass of information that swarms from caller to dispatch to emergency personnel before they ever arrive.
The more information you have before you get to a scene, the more mentally prepared you are when you get there. Your mind goes through training, and "what if" scenarios before you get there, and allows you to do everything to the best of your ability.
Emergency personnel CANNOT do their job properly without dispatch. Dispatchers deal with emergencies everyday, and are trained to stay calm and get the information that is necessary to help. To criticize anything they've done in this instance is ridiculous.
First off - kudos to the firefighter who jumped in and helped. It doesn't matter if you are on duty or not, your instincts and training kick in when something happens around you, and you know that you are one of the best people immediately available to help. He did exactly what I hope that anyone would do that could help.
Second - Let's not get too critical of the dispatchers. I work with dispatch constantly, and their job is to get information and relay it to the officers/deputies on the streets. More than likely, this is a multiple person dispatch. While one person takes the information, another pages out the fire/ems/police. This allows one person to concentrate on getting as much information as possible out to the streets, which is why he kept asking if there were any injuries, and kept asking people to check. Nobody really gave a good "yes, the monorail pilot is badly injured" answer, only "I'm sure there are." Dispatch was probably looking for specifics as to number and severity of injuries so they could ascertain whether or not to send multiple EMS units to the scene, or contact outside help if more were needed.
Also, a couple of the calls were very vague and used code that we as disney fans would understand, but how many dispatchers would understand "TTC" or "base". The first caller stated that there was a problem, but had no idea what happened because he was instructed to call. After the first call, the dispatchers probably consulted what information they had, and quickly got familiar with the territory, which is why on subsequent calls, they were asking which line the accident was on. A dispatcher has to get the most important information out there, and has to do it quickly, while trying to be as accurate as the calls allow him/her to be. You heard Dispatch asking the "exact location" of the emergency - this was probably an attempt to tell first responders exactly where to go when they get there, so they don't have to figure it out when they arrive. There is a mass of information that swarms from caller to dispatch to emergency personnel before they ever arrive.
The more information you have before you get to a scene, the more mentally prepared you are when you get there. Your mind goes through training, and "what if" scenarios before you get there, and allows you to do everything to the best of your ability.
Emergency personnel CANNOT do their job properly without dispatch. Dispatchers deal with emergencies everyday, and are trained to stay calm and get the information that is necessary to help. To criticize anything they've done in this instance is ridiculous.
tirian
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, it's not extremely surprising. Much of the WDW management has that "why bother?" mentality, which is why so much of the resort—from MK attractions to Epcot updates and monorail safety—is allowed to cruise on status quo. Sadly, it finally caught up with them.
board57796
New Member
Just to clarify, Pylon 385 is an actual hold point. A train would have to hold there is a train for some reason has departed Concourse and for some reason stops at the next holdpoint (which if I recall is Pylon 10. All holdpoints are marked on the beam by orange reflectors) 385 is only used regularly for switches, as trains rarely hold at 10. But a train pulling up to 385 while the switch is open past concourse will receive its amber just past 379 and need to stop at 385 to engage its MAPO override to continue past 385 into Concourse, as its MBS will turn to red as it passes 385. 385 is located directly over the tram station roof, so the pictures indicate that Purple was past 385, and following Centrals instructions per a standard switch to "MAPO override at 385 to reach concourse." Purple would have stopped twice on the way into the station: once at 379 to await Centrals instructions, and again at 385 to engage MAPO Override, which can only be engaged at Zero speed.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but Reedy Creek's jurisdiction is nothing but Walt Disney World. The dispatchers should be familiar with at least "TTC" if not "Base" too. If anything, I think the one dispatcher who asked about which line the accident occurred on was confused because the caller was switching between Concourse and Base as the site of the accident.
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
Reading those procedures are much appreciated. Thanks for the insight.
luckyeye13
New Member
In that particular scenario, the fact that power is cut will be even more effective than the pilot because, without power, that train won't get very far. If you are ever at the TTC (especially on the Magic Kingdom side) during a switch of trains between the Epcot and Resort lines, you will hear a very high-pitched noise as the switches start moving. (You can actually see one of the switches if you are standing towards the very front of the station and you will definitely see the movement if you are there during a switching manouver.) This is to alert the Cast Members on the platform that the station has lost power. Although you would normally hear this sound when the power kill pack has been used, the break in the circuit causes this alarm to sound in this case. After the train moves have been completed, the alarm will sound again as the station has lost power once more due to the break in the circuit while the switches move back.
Over on the Epcot side at TTC, I do not believe that the station loses power when the switch moves, however, that is because the switch is a good distance further from the station than it is on the MK Express side. However, I believe that a train on the Epcot side of the TTC would have a Red MBS and would only be able to go further on MAPO override. Even then, the train could only get so far, since no power means no movement. Luckily, this dead zone is far from the gap created by the open switch.
Fievel
RunDisney Addict
Ok...but here's the question. Does Reedy Creek have it's own dispatch, or does the county have a centralized dispatch. Take in mind that at this late hour, many local 911 calls my go to a central county dispatch.
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
Ready Creek has its own dispatch and 911 center. (I know, I've called them before)