Monorail Accident

[sweetpee_1993]

Thanks I didn't know that. I don't like how someone needs to be there to monitor, that kind of defeats the purpose of having an automated system.

Another reason to have someone present for a fully-automated system is the human factor. People will be more confident if they see a person standing there. In some situations that seems downright silly but in others I can see it. Heck, I can FEEL it!

 

[NewfieFan]

Actually... to the contrary... I'm wondering if Purple's e-stops could have kicked in (if it was NOT in Override) and prevented it from moving when/if the pilot saw the approaching train (pink).

Yeah, I wondered the same thing!

 

[hardcard]

Like I said... System won't be down long..... Looks like it'll be back up this morning/afternoon..

 

[Main Street USA]

Actually... to the contrary... I'm wondering if Purple's e-stops could have kicked in (if it was NOT in Override) and prevented it from moving when/if the pilot saw the approaching train (pink).

Purple would have been in override, too, as there would've been a gap in the track up by the switch. So, in order to move forward, it would've had to be in override.

 

[Figment632]

Another reason to have someone present for a fully-automated system is the human factor. People will be more confident if they see a person standing there. In some situations that seems downright silly but in others I can see it. Heck, I can FEEL it!

Yea the human factor is why they haven't gotten rid of umpires in the MLB (which they should never do) do I can see your point, I just think it would be cool.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Actually... to the contrary... I'm wondering if Purple's e-stops could have kicked in (if it was NOT in Override) and prevented it from moving when/if the pilot saw the approaching train (pink).

Ah, Gotcha. Its been suggested that Purple was also operating in override and was cleared to advance to a closer hold point within the zone. Here's that post.

Also... Jason "Day Late and a Dollar Short" Garcia is reporting on the Sentinel that Disney is saying the accident happened as they were switching a train off of the Epcot loop. Welcome to the story, Jason. We kicked your ______ on it.

 

[Phonedave]

I'm not getting at what you mean. Are you wondering why the E-Stops didn't kick in? Pink was in override and its possible that Purple was in override, advancing to another hold point just outside the station.

I really think that it doesn't matter with who was in what zone or anything having to do with the stopped Purple train.

What matters IMO is that Pink went a long distance the wrong way on the wrong track and even through a station without realizing he was on the wrong track as well as past station attendants and central without killing the system. That's a lot of people who could have prevented the accident, IMO.

IF this is indeed what happend - Pink reversed through a switch that did not switch, that must be a horrible feeling.

If that is the case, and everybody everything "by the book" then think what must be going though thier heads. The Pink pilot knows he followed instruction to reverse and override MAPO. But he also knows that if he had noticed the tower was on the wrong side, he could have stopped -maybe.

Again, I don't know the exact series of events that led to the breakdown of the system that night. But if there are things that somone *could* have noticed, but only if they were sharp and happend to catch it, that is a horrible feeling. It is one thing is the procedures state "when reversing through the station, check what beam you are on" and you don't do it. It's an other thing if you might have noticed it, but it was not a required procedure, but it could have prevented the accident.

-dave

 

[brkgnews]

Where is the physical switch for the "switch"? Is it in Central (I'm thinking not) or back at the shop?

... switching process ...

For whatever it's worth...

As of 1995 (again, based on the latest training manual I have), there was a seperate radio contact named "Switchbeam."

So, for example... To get from the shop into service on one of the main lines, the procedure outlined in the manual is as follows. Mono calls shop, gets clearance to MAPO override from the shop to the chiller plant. Holds at chiller plant and contacts Central. Central has pilot check PSI in braking / bag system, checks MAPO system, then clears mono to contact Switchbeam. Switchbeam clears mono to MAPO override to pylon 66 (on the exterior/express loop, between MK and Contemporary) via the switchbeam. Mono then transmits to all other trains what maneuver he is making, then verifies when he has cleared the switchbeam and arrived at Pylon 66. After that, they can stay on the express loop, or travel to the next switchbeam to access the Lagoon/resort beam, or the Epcot spurline switch to access the Epcot beam.

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Ah, Gotcha. Its been suggested that Purple was also operating in override and was cleared to advance to a closer hold point within the zone. Here's that post.

Also... Jason "Day Late and a Dollar Short" Garcia is reporting on the Sentinel that Disney is saying the accident happened as they were switching a train off of the Epcot loop. Welcome to the story, Jason. We kicked your ______ on it.

Dave, have I told you lately that I love you??? Your writing style and verbage tickle me on that one. :lol: Perhaps this board is his secret source???

 

[brkgnews]

Purple would have been in override, too, as there would've been a gap in the track up by the switch. So, in order to move forward, it would've had to be in override.

Gotcha. Thanks for the info.

 

[brkgnews]

Ah, Gotcha. Its been suggested that Purple was also operating in override and was cleared to advance to a closer hold point within the zone. Here's that post.

Thanks for the link... I'd missed it in the treacle. :lol:

 

[sweetpee_1993]

IF this is indeed what happend - Pink reversed through a switch that did not switch, that must be a horrible feeling.

If that is the case, and everybody everything "by the book" then think what must be going though thier heads. The Pink pilot knows he followed instruction to reverse and override MAPO. But he also knows that if he had noticed the tower was on the wrong side, he could have stopped -maybe.

Again, I don't know the exact series of events that led to the breakdown of the system that night. But if there are things that somone *could* have noticed, but only if they were sharp and happend to catch it, that is a horrible feeling. It is one thing is the procedures state "when reversing through the station, check what beam you are on" and you don't do it. It's an other thing if you might have noticed it, but it was not a required procedure, but it could have prevented the accident.

-dave

I hear ya. It's tough. Rethinking yourself is brutal. I'm certain that no matter what the series of errors, problems, etc. were the human tendency towards complacency will factor in. That's one of the hardest things to overcome. When you do something over and over and over it becomes more automatic with less thought involved. If you aren't thinking it's so easy to miss the details which leads to these "Perfect Storm" situations. It was late at night after a long, hot, tiresome day. It's easy to see how these things could all factor in then fall to the shoulders of the people who were working: pilots, dispatchers, platform cast, etc. They'll all struggle with this for the rest of their lives. It's good that you address that. Not everyone thinks of that.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Dave, have I told you lately that I love you??? Your writing style and verbage tickle me on that one. :lol: Perhaps this board is his secret source???

I'm just as competitive as any journalist out there. I want to be right and first. I just generally do it with my cameras.

 

[Phonedave]

Going over this again in my head.

Here is how the supposed series of events was *supposed* to happen

- Pink advances past switch

- Switch is thrown

- Pink reverses onto Express beam, which it rides through multiple stations to finaly switch into the shop

What -supposedly- happend is the switch never moved, and pink rode the wrong beam into purple.


Here is the one thing that I am missing. If the swich had cycled correctly and pink was on the correct beam, why would it have needed to be in MAPO override? Wouldn't it be seeing a clear signal back to the shop switch?

-dae

 

[cnymike]

Dave: When one of the switches is thrown in the opposite direction, MAPO sees it as a hole in the track.

 

[RiversideBunny]

Phonedave-

Also, why didn't something stop purple?

Tks

 

[Phonedave]

Dave: When one of the switches is thrown in the opposite direction, MAPO sees it as a hole in the track.

But after he clears the switch, why would it look like a hole ?

-dave

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Dave, did someone say that MAPO has to be in override to reverse? Also, that other fellow in that link was saying that both pink and purple would have been in override and ignoring the red MAPO light because they both were assuming that it was because of the switch being opened not knowing that the red signal light was actually because of the close train proximity. Or wait, you're asking if pink *had* proceeded to the correct beam why would it continue in override. I guess maybe the override is necessary in reverse? :shrug: Or once the momentum is going in overide past the switch onto the express beam he wasn't going to stop to re-engage? :shrug:

 

[JML42691]

But after he clears the switch, why would it look like a hole ?

-dave

I'm assuming that it would appear as if the switch wouldn't have changed back by the time he was in the station.:shrug:

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Phonedave-

Also, why didn't something stop purple?

Tks

In the scenario given with the beam switch for pink, purple would have also been in a MAPO override because when the track switch opens it causes the red signal also. In order for purple to proceed to that next hold point he would have needed to be in override.