MM+ Why we can't have nice things.

[englanddg]

If they are using 1-Day tickets as 'working' files it probably explains the limitations of 1 Park for FP+ AND why AP's and Premier Passports have so many issues with the system. As the system is architected around the 1-Day ticket all the features flow from that.

Since the other media has features the default 1-Day ticket does not have there is no support for the data structures needed to support the various other features, hopping etc, non-expiry, multiple locations (DL and WDW).

This even more strongly supports the theory that design was done by TWDC executives instead of professionals.

A professional would have designed an abstract $ADMISSION_MEDIA which could inherit properties like hopping etc as each would just be a case of the $ADMISSION_MEDIA which would contain pointers to the necessary properties and only ownership/biometrics/validity permanently associated with its record type and would inherit the properties it needed to build arbitrary admission media. Of course this would facilitate upgrade/downgrade of media simply by adding and deleting properties.

It could be argued even biometrics should be a property as some media especially hard ticket parties would not require biometric validation.

That being said, Things like this show the amateurish design and design done by someone ignorant of formal design data structures, I can see the need for the 'scratch memory' but scratch memory should never affect customer records which means conversion processes are directiy manipulating customer records, Of course they need to as the last step but ONLY as the last step.

Things like this have the potential for large scale data loss with rollback only possible from tape or virtual tape so all databases are consistent at a fixed point in time.

Friends and Family also left out any sort of detailed permissions hierarchy over various objects (such as tickets / ADRs / Band associations / FP+ ressies, which would have been a useful feature (considering it's a ground up rebuild) and one that could not only be applied to familes, but would be extremely useful for large groups or even TAs to use to plan trips on behalf of their clients.

For example...lets say a large group of 20 is going on a school trip. A simple "user assignment" of permissions (which is currently limited only to Memory Maker) would be a neat addition.

To allow the lead teacher in charge to be the "super admin" (for lack of a better term) over the other accounts, then be able to assigned detailed permissions with blackout windows, etc...so students could say...plan their FP+, but not be allowed to reserve during the blackout windows for group activities, and not be allowed to reserve ADRs (as an example).

I wouldn't expect that in v1.0 (if that's what you want to call the current system)...and the concept of the system holds promise for something like this, but that would require that the DB was designed in such a way to allow for future expansions along these lines.

As you pointed out, if the tickets are that limited, it shows not much time and effort was put into planning future expansions to the system (outside of glossy "in the future we could" sort of discussions)...which over time will end to ad hoc changes over time that hold the extreme potential to break other things...

When I saw the single tickets on my account, I knew they were a glitch of some sort. But, I'm also educated about the system and know exactly what I purchased (for the future and in the past) from Disney.

What if I wasn't like that? And I didn't question their presence on my account? And then started to make plans around those tickets only to be told at the gate when I show up they are not valid?

That's Disney setting up Guest Services to handle some very bad situations...

It's not fair to the Guests, and it's not fair to the front of the line CMs who have to catch all the flack.

 

[Nubs70]

Exactly this, We know that the 'whole family' model worked and worked well for DIS some of us started as kids and 20-30 years later we are STILL going, The whole 'toddlers only' strategy while cheap has the potential to backfire over the long term which DIS no longer considers.

Disney was keyed to the 8-14 year old demographic for decades, Now they are shooting for the 2-7 demographic. For the repeat family customers It is extremely likely that they will think of UNI as the park where they have the best memories.

Lets face it how many of us remember much of our lives before first grade or so. We definitely remember our school and adolescent years.

This will start to hit in 5-8 years as today's teens become young adults with their own families, It's possible that DIS will become the 1-2 day park and UNI will get the lion's share of the family vacation simply because the nostalgia will be stronger for UNI than DIS.

WDW is limiting appeal to a slim demographic. They should provide offerings for the entire lifecycle. This would be similar to the approach of auto companies where there are offerings from sports cars (for young and young at heart) to minivan (young family) to old fart sedan. WDW seems to be focused on the minivan market at the expense of the other demographics that often have significantly higher discretionary income.

 

[Nubs70]

Friends and Family also left out any sort of detailed permissions hierarchy over various objects (such as tickets / ADRs / Band associations / FP+ ressies, which would have been a useful feature (considering it's a ground up rebuild) and one that could not only be applied to familes, but would be extremely useful for large groups or even TAs to use to plan trips on behalf of their clients.

For example...lets say a large group of 20 is going on a school trip. A simple "user assignment" of permissions (which is currently limited only to Memory Maker) would be a neat addition.

To allow the lead teacher in charge to be the "super admin" (for lack of a better term) over the other accounts, then be able to assigned detailed permissions with blackout windows, etc...so students could say...plan their FP+, but not be allowed to reserve during the blackout windows for group activities, and not be allowed to reserve ADRs (as an example).

I wouldn't expect that in v1.0 (if that's what you want to call the current system)...and the concept of the system holds promise for something like this, but that would require that the DB was designed in such a way to allow for future expansions along these lines.

As you pointed out, if the tickets are that limited, it shows not much time and effort was put into planning future expansions to the system (outside of glossy "in the future we could" sort of discussions)...which over time will end to ad hoc changes over time that hold the extreme potential to break other things...

When I saw the single tickets on my account, I knew they were a glitch of some sort. But, I'm also educated about the system and know exactly what I purchased (for the future and in the past) from Disney.

What if I wasn't like that? And I didn't question their presence on my account? And then started to make plans around those tickets only to be told at the gate when I show up they are not valid?

That's Disney setting up Guest Services to handle some very bad situations...

It's not fair to the Guests, and it's not fair to the front of the line CMs who have to catch all the flack.

I wrote in a post some time back how WDW should use this forum to critique their strategic direction with MM+. The above post along with Ford's above is exactly something the designers of MM+ should see.

 

[flynnibus]

If they are using 1-Day tickets as 'working' files it probably explains the limitations of 1 Park for FP+ AND why AP's and Premier Passports have so many issues with the system. As the system is architected around the 1-Day ticket all the features flow from that.

No.. you take the comment the wrong way I think. I think the use of the 1day ticket is more of a way of addressing a data constraint. They use the smallest denominator, most independent, element as a shim to fill a gap.. like a foreign key constraint. For example, they can't create a condition without a related ticket entitlement.. so they create dummy tickets to address the constraint, get over the hump, and continue with whatever intervention the person needs to address.

That would be far more realistic of a condition.. and could be an issue with what kind of associations the system allows them to make between ticket entitlements and other features. Example.. if they need to associate two things to a customer's ticket entitlement, but the system is trying to force an exclusive association and therefore only allowing one... or if there are constraints that make the system treat the type of ticket as insufficient entitlements or incompatible. Creating dummy tickets could be ways of addressing conditions like those.

Since the other media has features the default 1-Day ticket does not have there is no support for the data structures needed to support the various other features, hopping etc, non-expiry, multiple locations (DL and WDW).

The rest of the information we have doesn't jive with this theory (and that goes into total conspiracy territory..). The system understands more than 1 day tickets... it's just 1 day tickets are being ADDED to address certain scenarios.

 

[ford91exploder]

WDW is limiting appeal to a slim demographic. They should provide offerings for the entire lifecycle. This would be similar to the approach of auto companies where there are offerings from sports cars (for young and young at heart) to minivan (young family) to old fart sedan. WDW seems to be focused on the minivan market at the expense of the other demographics that often have significantly higher discretionary income.

This is VERY true, The midcareer professional 35-55 family will likely NOT have toddlers and will have considerable discretionary income, Disney is virtually conceding this market to others,

Coincidentally this is the prime market for DVC many of whom bought in for same reasons I did ie the FORCED use of vacation time DVC pre-NGE was a great thing for spending family time, Post NGE it means that at least one person is the vacation troubleshooter and they don't get to enjoy their vacation if it involves Disney related activities because they are spending huge blocks of time on phone or at GR trying to fix things which for were never problematic for decades past

 

[ford91exploder]

No.. you take the comment the wrong way I think. I think the use of the 1day ticket is more of a way of addressing a data constraint. They use the smallest denominator, most independent, element as a shim to fill a gap.. like a foreign key constraint. For example, they can't create a condition without a related ticket entitlement.. so they create dummy tickets to address the constraint, get over the hump, and continue with whatever intervention the person needs to address.

That would be far more realistic of a condition.. and could be an issue with what kind of associations the system allows them to make between ticket entitlements and other features. Example.. if they need to associate two things to a customer's ticket entitlement, but the system is trying to force an exclusive association and therefore only allowing one... or if there are constraints that make the system treat the type of ticket as insufficient entitlements or incompatible. Creating dummy tickets could be ways of addressing conditions like those.



The rest of the information we have doesn't jive with this theory (and that goes into total conspiracy territory..). The system understands more than 1 day tickets... it's just 1 day tickets are being ADDED to address certain scenarios.

Oh please there is no conspiracy theory here, Just observed artifacts of very poor system design and implementation, In fact TWDC probably chose the 1-day basic ticket as it was the simplest and ASSUMED to share basic characteristics of all other ticket media.

Your point about needing to add a 1-Day ticket speaks to bad design, Backend should be able to synthesize a validity condition without needing to create 'phantom tickets' in customer database.

DW and I have Premier passports, rest of family has non-resident AP's, The utter hell we have been through on attempting to link these to MDE on two separate vacations, with ultimately unsuccessful results in both cases. I know a bunch of people who have used the MM+ successfully, I know a larger group who have not used MM+ successfully,

The common denominator among the successful MM+ users is MagicMyWay ticket or package usage

The common denominator among the unsuccessful group is PREMIUM ticket media AP's/Passports/Non-Expiring/DVC

Hence it is logical to assume the system is designed around the 1 Day MMW ticket, Even the MM+ limitation on number of days you can reserve is tied to the maximum number of days a MMW ticket is valid for. It would be logical if MM+ was length of stay.

It would also explain why AP holders who WERE able to link AP's to MDE can continue to make FP+ reservations after they had checked out because assumptions about the ticket only being valid for 10 days is baked into the code,

FP+ probably DOES check validity date on the assumption that tickets might not be valid for entire length of stay but this check is probably what allows linked AP's to continue working. From my perspective this is a bug not an intended feature as FP+ probably should do a IF (FP_DATE > (CHECK_OUT_DATE OR TIX_EXP_DATE) AND TIX_VALID) THEN ...

What it probably looks like now IF FP_DATE > (TIX_EXP_DATE AND TIX_VALID) THEN ...

 

[JenniferS]

I wouldn't miss Jimmy's posts for the world. He is the best thing about this forum. I can read mob mentality and insults everywhere else on the internet. That is not why I'm here. In fact, it is why I would leave. I am here for people such as @WDWDad13 and @Jimmy Thick , who dare go against the tide and think for themselves. My kind of people. I usually disagree with everything they say, but they are my people.

Yeah, what he said!

 

[JenniferS]

All that made me think was Pudding Pop...

What the heck happened to Pudding Pops?
They. Were. The. Bomb!!

 

[ford91exploder]

What the heck happened to Pudding Pops?
They. Were. The. Bomb!!

The health Nazi's got them, After all they were basically a sugar+chocolate high on a stick.

 

[GoofGoof]

This is VERY true, The midcareer professional 35-55 family will likely NOT have toddlers and will have considerable discretionary income, Disney is virtually conceding this market to others,

Coincidentally this is the prime market for DVC many of whom bought in for same reasons I did ie the FORCED use of vacation time DVC pre-NGE was a great thing for spending family time, Post NGE it means that at least one person is the vacation troubleshooter and they don't get to enjoy their vacation if it involves Disney related activities because they are spending huge blocks of time on phone or at GR trying to fix things which for were never problematic for decades past

WDW isn't geared just to toddlers. It's really the pre-teen/10 and under crowd. Plenty of 10 year old girls still want to meet a princess and 10 year old boys still want to be a pirate. Kids on average have to be around 8 to be tall enough to ride forbidden Journey and closer to 10 for all rides at Universal. Of course every kid grows at a different rate so some 7 year olds will get onto Forbidden Journey and some will have to wait until they are 9 or 10. The "families with kids 10 and under" market is a lot more broad than the families with toddlers market. Lots of professionals are having kids in their 30s now so they are still in your wheelhouse of 35 to 55 while their kids are attracted to WDW. It's a pretty lucrative draw as a right of passage for kids too.

The problem with stretching the appeal to cover teens and adults without kids is those people tend to be attracted by a broader range of activities. I know for me personally there was a 6 or 7 year gap visiting WDW from 2000 to 2007 when I was busy seeing other things. I still loved Disney and knew I would be back, but I had other things I wanted to see and do before I had kids. I loved PI as a young adult and still can't really figure out why it's gone, but the parks to a large extent have always been geared towards kids.

 

[JenniferS]

The health Nazi's got them, After all they were basically a sugar+chocolate high on a stick.

Yeah, and ... ?

 

[ford91exploder]

WDW isn't geared just to toddlers. It's really the pre-teen/10 and under crowd. Plenty of 10 year old girls still want to meet a princess and 10 year old boys still want to be a pirate. Kids on average have to be around 8 to be tall enough to ride forbidden Journey and closer to 10 for all rides at Universal. Of course every kid grows at a different rate so some 7 year olds will get onto Forbidden Journey and some will have to wait until they are 9 or 10. The "families with kids 10 and under" market is a lot more broad than the families with toddlers market. Lots of professionals are having kids in their 30s now so they are still in your wheelhouse of 35 to 55 while their kids are attracted to WDW. It's a pretty lucrative draw as a right of passage for kids too.

The problem with stretching the appeal to cover teens and adults without kids is those people tend to be attracted by a broader range of activities. I know for me personally there was a 6 or 7 year gap visiting WDW from 2000 to 2007 when I was busy seeing other things. I still loved Disney and knew I would be back, but I had other things I wanted to see and do before I had kids. I loved PI as a young adult and still can't really figure out why it's gone, but the parks to a large extent have always been geared towards kids.

Lets face it girls of ANY age like princesses and Disney capitalizes on this, But in the past Disney focused on the 8-14 demographic, To be fair under-10 is probably a better descriptor of the market but I maintain that my basic point of WDW and TWDC is heavily skewed toward little kids and even the kids in my extended family state "Disney is for little kids, Universal has the cool stuff"

To complete the irony Universal was advertising on Disney XD!!!!

And to complete this look at the old Mickey Mouse Club - My dad admitted to having a crush on Annette Funicello, when he was 16. Look at the characters on the disney shows all much younger shooting for once again the under 10 crowd.

 

[ford91exploder]

Yeah, and ... ?

Agree - but our betters know what we must eat, Give them a few years and the the only food choices will be Soylent Green or a thin gruel with nutritional supplements.

 

[JenniferS]

Agree - but our betters know what we must eat, Give them a few years and the the only food choices will be Soylent Green or a thin gruel with nutritional supplements.

White bread is what's killing us all - not Pudding Pops.
Who can we sue?

 

[JenniferS]

Just read on Twitter that OTPN is reporting that hundreds of permits were recently approved to remove all Legacy FastPass machines.
Not that I ever thought otherwise, but it would appear we are stuck with FP+. Ugh!

 

[danlb_2000]

Just read on Twitter that OTPN is reporting that hundreds of permits were recently approved to remove all Legacy FastPass machines.
Not that I ever thought otherwise, but it would appear we are stuck with FP+. Ugh!

It wasn't hundreds but it was a good number. It's a little silly of them to say "hundreds" since I don't think there are even a hundred attractions that have legacy Fastpass.

Primeval Whirl Legacy Removal - BVCC
Expedition Everst Legacy Removal - BVCC
Dinosaur Legacy Removal - BVCC
Star Tours Legacy Removal - BVCC
Rockin Rollercoaster Legacy Removal - BVCC
Little Mermaid Legacy Removal - BVCC
Land Legacy Removal - BVCC
Soarin Legacy Removal - BVCC
Norway Maelstrom Legacy Removal - BVCC
Mission Space Legacy Removal - BVCC
Town Square Legacy Removal - BVCC
Test Track Legacy Removal - BVCC
Storybook Circus Legacy Removal - BVCC
Space Mountain Legacy Removal - BVCC
Big Thunder Mtn Legacy Removal - BVCC
Splash Mtn Legacy Removal - BVCC
Captain Eo Legacy Removal - BVCC

 

[JenniferS]

It wasn't hundreds but it was a good number. It's a little silly of them to say "hundreds" since I don't think there are even a hundred attractions that have legacy Fastpass.

Primeval Whirl Legacy Removal - BVCC
Expedition Everst Legacy Removal - BVCC
Dinosaur Legacy Removal - BVCC
Star Tours Legacy Removal - BVCC
Rockin Rollercoaster Legacy Removal - BVCC
Little Mermaid Legacy Removal - BVCC
Land Legacy Removal - BVCC
Soarin Legacy Removal - BVCC
Norway Maelstrom Legacy Removal - BVCC
Mission Space Legacy Removal - BVCC
Town Square Legacy Removal - BVCC
Test Track Legacy Removal - BVCC
Storybook Circus Legacy Removal - BVCC
Space Mountain Legacy Removal - BVCC
Big Thunder Mtn Legacy Removal - BVCC
Splash Mtn Legacy Removal - BVCC
Captain Eo Legacy Removal - BVCC

Yeah, "hundreds" sounded really high, but I didn't want to misquote.

The point is, we're stuck with FastPass+.

 

[Hakunamatata]

It wasn't hundreds but it was a good number. It's a little silly of them to say "hundreds" since I don't think there are even a hundred attractions that have legacy Fastpass.

Primeval Whirl Legacy Removal - BVCC
Expedition Everst Legacy Removal - BVCC
Dinosaur Legacy Removal - BVCC
Star Tours Legacy Removal - BVCC
Rockin Rollercoaster Legacy Removal - BVCC
Little Mermaid Legacy Removal - BVCC
Land Legacy Removal - BVCC
Soarin Legacy Removal - BVCC
Norway Maelstrom Legacy Removal - BVCC
Mission Space Legacy Removal - BVCC
Town Square Legacy Removal - BVCC
Test Track Legacy Removal - BVCC
Storybook Circus Legacy Removal - BVCC
Space Mountain Legacy Removal - BVCC
Big Thunder Mtn Legacy Removal - BVCC
Splash Mtn Legacy Removal - BVCC
Captain Eo Legacy Removal - BVCC

Those that had them had four or five each, so there likely was hundreds of machines.

 

[englanddg]

Yeah, "hundreds" sounded really high, but I didn't want to misquote.

The point is, we're stuck with FastPass+.

This shouldn't be a surprise...they can't run both systems at the same time, and they need to get legacy FP out of the equation before they can deal with honing the distribution patterns for FP+.

For me, I knew for certain this was coming once I discovered that they did not install RFID readers into the legacy machines...they never had any intention of keeping the legacy system intact, I suspect.

What has surprised me is how rapidly they've excelarated the roll out...

 

[danlb_2000]

Those that had them had four or five each, so there likely was hundreds of machines.

Yes, but they didn't say machines, the said "permits". Here is their post on Facebook:

"Hundreds of permits were recently approved to remove all legacy FASTPASS machines. We're slowly getting there..."