Michael Jackson

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
You do also hear all these stories about people trusting their kids spending time with priests outside of church and school spaces, sometimes as far as going on camping trips alone together. I imagine no-one would go along with that now, but perhaps up until not that long ago there was a sense that certain sorts of people would never do such a thing. In that regard, I can understand how at least initially parents might have just discounted the possibility that Michael Jackson - the world's biggest pop star with a very wholesome persona - was someone they'd have to watch out for.

One comment from the mother of James Safechuck did strike me in that regard, though. She recalled that Michael had told her at one point that she should have a word to James about holding his hand in public because, even though nothing was going on, you know how people are (or words to that effect). It seemed to me that a grown man spending inordinate amounts of time with your child mentioning that people will think he's in a sexual relationship with your child even though "nothing's going on" would be a little like a bucket of cold water that would make you make you sit up and question what exactly was going on.
The thing with MJ is that he is so whack you'd almost believe he would be the only man who enjoys the company of underage boys in a non-sexual manner.

The story was 'missed his own childhood because famous star at five, never grew up or spend time with kids his own age during childhood, is an isolated man, a genius but mentally stunted'. One could see it make some sense too.
 

King Racoon 77

Thank you sir. You were an inspiration.
Premium Member
Wow seven pages in and no-one mentioned this 😮😮😮
355604
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
Oh, the irony that it should be us, the resident racists, who would resist a lynch mob of a Black man. ;)

I used to be quite convinced of MJ's guilt, wouldn't listen to his music, until our dear @raven24 posted some material to the contrary.
Since then I remain undecided, maybe this documentary will change my mind, maybe I'll find it one-sided activism.

I wouldn't let any of my kids come anywhere near this man, that much is true. But also, as tough as it can be, the principle of innocent until proven guilty exists for a reason. There is no nastier and dumber saying than 'where there is smoke there is fire'. 25 years of unproven allegations remain unproven allegations.


What does disturb me is how a convicted rapist such as Mike Tyson is now a cult hero, gets offered roles in light-hearted comedies, is a hero in some circles of anti-feminism movements.

Don’t worry, the irony isn’t lost on me. ;)

In all seriousness, I was horrified by the documentary, and Oprah’s interview. They made me question what I thought I knew.
So, I went back and over a few days spent hours rewatching interviews with MJ and with people who knew him. I rewatched This is It.
I thought about all of it. I realized that I still believe in his innocence.
He’s so childlike and delicate and just didn’t understand why people could see something wrong in being close with children.

Contrary to Merlin’s misleading post, there are many interviews of friends who spent a lot of time with him, and allowed their children to be alone with him. Not to mention, he was acquitted when he went to trial. He never returned to Neverland due to how he felt it was violated by the police and the allegations, and we all know how much he loved it there. That doesn’t scream “guilty” to me.

People here can say it’s willful ignorance or whatever makes them feel better about themselves, but when you look at all of it, there’s just as much reason to doubt the allegations as there is to believe them. Therefore, no one can be certain of what happened, and his amazing legacy does not deserve to be destroyed.
He gave so much to this world, in so many ways, and especially to children.

This is one ( maybe the only) subject where Raven and I are in complete agreement.lol.
 
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bclane

Well-Known Member
You do also hear all these stories about people trusting their kids spending time with priests outside of church and school spaces, sometimes as far as going on camping trips alone together. I imagine no-one would go along with that now, but perhaps up until not that long ago there was a sense that certain sorts of people would never do such a thing. In that regard, I can understand how at least initially parents might have just discounted the possibility that Michael Jackson - the world's biggest pop star with a very wholesome persona - was someone they'd have to watch out for.

One comment from the mother of James Safechuck did strike me in that regard, though. She recalled that Michael had told her at one point that she should have a word to James about holding his hand in public because, even though nothing was going on, you know how people are (or words to that effect). It seemed to me that a grown man spending inordinate amounts of time with your child mentioning that people will think he's in a sexual relationship with your child even though "nothing's going on" would be a little like a bucket of cold water that would make you make you sit up and question what exactly was going on.
All good points. As a private school middle school teacher, I’ve taken kids on overnight trips in the past. Parents had to trust their kids with me to send them on the trip. However, IMO this is a very different situation than what parents were doing with MJ. Parents of my students know that there are always multiple chaperones on these school sponsored trips, multiple kids in a room with each chaperone, and we were never alone in a room with a kid...by design. Kids were always buddied up with another kid and almost always in a group. Also, when we were in hotel rooms on these trips, I was always on the couch and the kids took the beds. MJ was alone with these kids and in the same bed and the parents knew that was the plan. I would personally never let my kids do something like that no matter who the sponsor was nor would I ever share a bed with another kid even if it meant I had to sleep on the floor...which I have done. And the only time I would ever hold a kids hand would be if I was shaking it or during grace with all of us holding hands around the table to pray. I just don’t see how anything else could ever be viewed as ok whether it was back in the 80s or now...and yet apparently it was ok for some people. I always found that to be disturbing even when I was a kid myself. I don’t know if Michael was guilty or not. It sure seems that way. But imho, the parents of these kids should be ashamed of themselves for knowingly allowing their kids to walk around holding hands with a grown man and sleep in his bed. That situation seems extreme enough to make them partially responsible for whatever happened. JMO.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
What about any of my posts is misleading? Most of what I said to explain my reasoning for being suspicious of him was because of the behavior that Michael Jackson himself freely admitted to. I even went out of my way NOT to use any of his accusers as citation for this belief. Michael Jackson let kids sleep with him in his bed, and he very freely admitted to this practice.

Just that alone (ignoring everything else) is incredibly inappropriate behavior and any rational and sane person would consider it absurdly suspicious. Regardless of whether you even think the people accusing him in this documentary (or any of the others that came before) aren't credible.

I'm also well aware that the parents allowed their kids to sleep with him alone in the same bed. I'll add that I consider these parents unbelievably foolish and out of their minds...
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Oh, the irony that it should be us, the resident racists, who would resist a lynch mob of a Black man. ;)

I used to be quite convinced of MJ's guilt, wouldn't listen to his music, until our dear @raven24 posted some material to the contrary.
Since then I remain undecided, maybe this documentary will change my mind, maybe I'll find it one-sided activism.

I wouldn't let any of my kids come anywhere near this man, that much is true. But also, as tough as it can be, the principle of innocent until proven guilty exists for a reason. There is no nastier and dumber saying than 'where there is smoke there is fire'. 25 years of unproven allegations remain unproven allegations.


What does disturb me is how a convicted rapist such as Mike Tyson is now a cult hero, gets offered roles in light-hearted comedies, is a hero in some circles of anti-feminism movements.

I don’t remember posting anything lol.

I will repeat that I went to Never Land as a kid and it was one of the best experiences of my life.

Funny how we’re getting on R. Kelly and Michael Jackson with documentaries, but I’ve seen nothing on Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Harvey Weinstein, Woody Allen, and so forth.
 

Sir_Cliff

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I think I'm more understanding to people on here who are leaning toward giving him the benefit of the doubt than most. I mean, we will never know exactly what happened. There were police raids of his home and, as far as I'm aware, no actual physical evidence of anything untoward ever turned up. So, I guess it will ultimately be up to people to make up their own minds.

As an aside, this has made me think of Hannah Gadsby's Netflix special Nanette, particularly where she lays into Picasso for being a horrible person. I liked the special a lot, but I must say that I didn't find her call to essentially cancel Picasso particularly convincing. I think we can acknowledge he was a bad guy who did horrible things to women, but taking his paintings out of galleries and art books and generally skipping over him in the development of modern art seems disingenuous. No-one has to (or ever had to) enjoy it, but are there just some artists whose work is too influential to ignore?

I don't know the answer to that, but just putting it out there!
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
I think I'm more understanding to people on here who are leaning toward giving him the benefit of the doubt than most. I mean, we will never know exactly what happened. There were police raids of his home and, as far as I'm aware, no actual physical evidence of anything untoward ever turned up. So, I guess it will ultimately be up to people to make up their own minds.

As an aside, this has made me think of Hannah Gadsby's Netflix special Nanette, particularly where she lays into Picasso for being a horrible person. I liked the special a lot, but I must say that I didn't find her call to essentially cancel Picasso particularly convincing. I think we can acknowledge he was a bad guy who did horrible things to women, but taking his paintings out of galleries and art books and generally skipping over him in the development of modern art seems disingenuous. No-one has to (or ever had to) enjoy it, but are there just some artists whose work is too influential to ignore?

I don't know the answer to that, but just putting it out there!

Yes, I think there are some artists who are too influential to ignore or ban.

That said, had Michael Jackson been found guilty, then I would not agree with a Cirque or eventual Broadway show. Since he was acquitted, then I think we have to let people have their own personal opinions, but allow the shows, dance, and music to go on.

As a side note, I’m not sure if everyone is aware, but MJ is responsible for black artists being played on MTV. He was also the second most generous philanthropist in the world, behind only Bill Gates. He has literally saved countless lives. All of that should not be erased.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
I don’t remember posting anything lol.

I will repeat that I went to Never Land as a kid and it was one of the best experiences of my life.

Funny how we’re getting on R. Kelly and Michael Jackson with documentaries, but I’ve seen nothing on Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Harvey Weinstein, Woody Allen, and so forth.


As I’ve been watching videos the past few days, I came on this one.. had completely forgotten about it! I think it was part of the “home movie” special.

R. Kelly is rightfully under attack now, but this song was phenomenal.

 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
As I’ve been watching videos the past few days, I came on this one.. had completely forgotten about it! I think it was part of the “home movie” special.

R. Kelly is rightfully under attack now, but this song was phenomenal.



I will watch the video once I get home.

R. Kelly is rightfully under attack, I agree. But I believe we should be talking about others as well. Jerry Lee Lewis is still living. Let’s get a documentary on him.
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
Don’t worry, the irony isn’t lost on me. ;)

In all seriousness, I was horrified by the documentary, and Oprah’s interview. They made me question what I thought I knew.
So, I went back and over a few days spent hours rewatching interviews with MJ and with people who knew him. I rewatched This is It.
I thought about all of it. I realized that I still believe in his innocence.
He’s so childlike and delicate and just didn’t understand why people could see something wrong in being close with children.

Contrary to Merlin’s misleading post, there are many interviews of friends who spent a lot of time with him, and allowed their children to be alone with him. Not to mention, he was acquitted when he went to trial. He never returned to Neverland due to how he felt it was violated by the police and the allegations, and we all know how much he loved it there. That doesn’t scream “guilty” to me.

People here can say it’s willful ignorance or whatever makes them feel better about themselves, but when you look at all of it, there’s just as much reason to doubt the allegations as there is to believe them. Therefore, no one can be certain of what happened, and his amazing legacy does not deserve to be destroyed.
He gave so much to this world, in so many ways, and especially to children.

This is one ( maybe the only) subject where Raven and I are in complete agreement.lol.
I don't care for his music. Rubbish. Except for the Thriller album. Plus I think he is a nutter. I also do actually think he is a nasty deranged pederast. For that reason alone I dislike hearing his music, because I don't want to be exposed to anything produced by a child molester.

The only song I ever listen to is Beat It. Only from 2:38. I know it to the second - that's where Van Halen's guitar begins. The solo of the decade. I feel uneasy even listening to that.

Few thing frustrate me more than that precisely the most heinous crimes are the most difficult to prove. And yet, sadly, you do need proof. Gossip and hearsay and ulterior motives abound too, are pests in their own right. And I too have seen too many lynch mobs lately. Too much eagerness to join the outrage du jour, and then the mob moves on to the next person.
 

Princess Leia

Well-Known Member
I don’t remember posting anything lol.

I will repeat that I went to Never Land as a kid and it was one of the best experiences of my life.

Funny how we’re getting on R. Kelly and Michael Jackson with documentaries, but I’ve seen nothing on Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Harvey Weinstein, Woody Allen, and so forth.
I mean, Weinstein’s essentially been taken down at this point. Woody Allen is on his way out as well.

With Elvis and Jerry Lee Lewis (who I forgot was alive), I’m going to assume that it’s because those instances were 60 years ago. It wasn’t okay then, but I do think it’s because it was that long ago.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
I mean, Weinstein’s essentially been taken down at this point. Woody Allen is on his way out as well.

With Elvis and Jerry Lee Lewis (who I forgot was alive), I’m going to assume that it’s because those instances were 60 years ago. It wasn’t okay then, but I do think it’s because it was that long ago.

Let’s make documentaries as well on Lewis, Weinstein, and Allen. Shed the spotlight even more, like what they’re doing with R. Kelly. The time in between shouldn’t matter.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
Let’s make documentaries as well on Lewis, Weinstein, and Allen. Shed the spotlight even more, like what they’re doing with R. Kelly. The time in between shouldn’t matter.
Weinstein apparently did have a documentary, though it doesn't appear to be particularly well known or popular. It's called Untouchable, recently released (to limited audiences I think). Thankfully there aren't many people who need convincing that he did what he's accused of.

I think the people you mentioned should have the media spotlight put on them. But I can see reasons for why they aren't focused on as much. They're certainly not good reasons, but sad and cynical ones that reflect poorly on our culture of people getting off on the drama and misery surrounding celebrities.

Weinstein probably isn't considered "marketable" for the same sort of over-the-top drama that can be milked from the likes of MJ or R Kelly. Prior to 2017-ish, Weinstein as a person was relatively unknown in the general public. His empire was there if you actively looked for it, and he's a super rich and powerful producer. But outside of the circles of Hollywood as well as the elite, I don't think many people in the general public knew about him. Back in 2015, if you went into a room of 50 regular everyday people and mentioned the name Harvey Weinstein, i'd wager most of them would say "who?". Whereas the same 50 people would probably easily recognize who Michael Jackson is. And many with R Kelly as well.

Now that we're in the 2010's, you could also argue that Woody Allen, Elvis Presley and Jerry Lee Lewis have faded in media relevancy and marketability too. Not that they aren't still somewhat well known, but their cultural presence has definitely waned considerably over the years. Michael Jackson's cultural presence hasn't been diminished much at all (yet), he still commands tremendous media presence when brought up. And R Kelly obviously because he's a current popular artist.

Regardless of whether you believe MJ is innocent or guilty, this culture of "drama marketing" is disgusting. There are a lot of people who just consume this crap and treat it as entertainment (even when it's the most horrifying crap imaginable). They get off on the mixture of fame, wealth and misery of celebrities. It's sick and twisted. Sleazy rags like TMZ and The National Enquirer discovered long ago they could profit off of this behavior, but it is now fully mainstream.

Very old but just as relevant as ever-
 

Kram Sacul

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
I don’t remember posting anything lol.

I will repeat that I went to Never Land as a kid and it was one of the best experiences of my life.

You mean you weren’t groomed/molested/abused and made to defend MJ years later against your will? How odd. Did you watch the "documentary"? Apparently that’s what happened there.
 

xdan0920

Think for yourselfer
I don’t remember posting anything lol.

I will repeat that I went to Never Land as a kid and it was one of the best experiences of my life.

Funny how we’re getting on R. Kelly and Michael Jackson with documentaries, but I’ve seen nothing on Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Harvey Weinstein, Woody Allen, and so forth.
I realize your self-centeredness knows no bounds, but....

You serious right now?
Weinstein apparently did have a documentary, though it doesn't appear to be particularly well known or popular. It's called Untouchable, recently released (to limited audiences I think). Thankfully there aren't many people who need convincing that he did what he's accused of.

I think the people you mentioned should have the media spotlight put on them. But I can see reasons for why they aren't focused on as much. They're certainly not good reasons, but sad and cynical ones that reflect poorly on our culture of people getting off on the drama and misery surrounding celebrities.

Weinstein probably isn't considered "marketable" for the same sort of over-the-top drama that can be milked from the likes of MJ or R Kelly. Prior to 2017-ish, Weinstein as a person was relatively unknown in the general public. His empire was there if you actively looked for it, and he's a super rich and powerful producer. But outside of the circles of Hollywood as well as the elite, I don't think many people in the general public knew about him. Back in 2015, if you went into a room of 50 regular everyday people and mentioned the name Harvey Weinstein, i'd wager most of them would say "who?". Whereas the same 50 people would probably easily recognize who Michael Jackson is. And many with R Kelly as well.

Now that we're in the 2010's, you could also argue that Woody Allen, Elvis Presley and Jerry Lee Lewis have faded in media relevancy and marketability too. Not that they aren't still somewhat well known, but their cultural presence has definitely waned considerably over the years. Michael Jackson's cultural presence hasn't been diminished much at all (yet), he still commands tremendous media presence when brought up. And R Kelly obviously because he's a current popular artist.

Regardless of whether you believe MJ is innocent or guilty, this culture of "drama marketing" is disgusting. There are a lot of people who just consume this crap and treat it as entertainment (even when it's the most horrifying crap imaginable). They get off on the mixture of fame, wealth and misery of celebrities. It's sick and twisted. Sleazy rags like TMZ and The National Enquirer discovered long ago they could profit off of this behavior, but it is now fully mainstream.

Very old but just as relevant as ever-

With Raven, everything is Racist. This is racism. Your reasons mean nothing. It’s racism.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
I think I'm more understanding to people on here who are leaning toward giving him the benefit of the doubt than most. I mean, we will never know exactly what happened. There were police raids of his home and, as far as I'm aware, no actual physical evidence of anything untoward ever turned up. So, I guess it will ultimately be up to people to make up their own minds.

I recalled an interview I watched many years ago in which Jackson was extremely unconvincing in his denials that child erotica had been found in his possession. I thought it was the Oprah interview, but I just searched for transcripts and found that it was the Diane Sawyer interview he conducted with Lisa Marie Presley in 1995. Here's the relevant section:

Diane: I want to ask you about two things. These reports that we read over and over again, that in your room they found photographs of young boys…

Michael: Not of young boys, of children, all kinds of girls and…everything.

Diane: And that they found photographs…books, of young boys who were undressed.

Michael: No.

Diane: It didn’t happen?

Michael: No, not that I know of – unless people sent me things that I haven’t opened – People send, people know my love for children, so they send me books from all over the world. From South America, from Germany, from Sweden. I…

Diane: So people say that, that they found these things, that there’s an indication…let them come forward…Let them produce them, right?

Michael: Yeah. Because I get all…I get all kinds…you wouldn’t believe the amounts of mail that I get. If you say to somebody, you know, if I let the fans know that I love Charlie Chaplin, I’ll be swarmed in Charlie Chaplin paraphernalia.

Diane: What about…

Michael: …If I say I love children, which I do, they swarm me with everything pertaining to kids.

----

It struck me as suspicious when I first watched it as a young teen, which is why it stayed with me all these years. It doesn't read any better now.
 

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