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Michael Jackson

Princess Leia

Well-Known Member
It was definitely different back in those days...at least as I remember my childhood. I remember a teacher sexually assaulted several boys at my school back in the early 80s and instead of being locked up, he was transferred to a different school where he continued to teach. I know this because my father was an admin at the school and I overheard him discussing it with my mom. I was friends with a couple of the boys and it really shook me up. Anyway, I don’t know why they did that. Was it because the boys weren’t believed? Was it because the crime was so disgusting that people didn’t know how to deal with it? I don’t know. But with regards to MJ, I remember feeling so relieved when he was found innocent while at the same time thinking that if someone asked me to sleep with my kids in the same bed (I didn’t have kids yet but was thinking about it the future) that I would have beat the hell out of them. After the trial, I remember still loving his music but thinking he was the weirdest creepiest human being on the planet and wondering why those parents were willing to just leave their kids with him for overnight slumber parties or whatever.
There have been at least two school administrators in my area who have recently either been put on leave or fired due to past sexual misconduct at other school districts, that the current district didn’t know about when the administrators were hired. I think it was just a common practice for the longest time (see also: the Catholic Church).
 

bclane

Well-Known Member
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There have been at least two school administrators in my area who have recently either been put on leave or fired due to past sexual misconduct at other school districts, that the current district didn’t know about when the administrators were hired. I think it was just a common practice for the longest time (see also: the Catholic Church).
Good points. Maybe things weren’t all that different back then. What a shame. :(
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
Worth repeating-

“It is tempting for the media to tie Jackson into a larger cultural narrative about sexual misconduct. R. Kelly was rightfully taken down by a documentary, and many other high-profile figures have been exposed in recent years, so surely, the logic goes, Michael Jackson must be guilty as well. Yet that is a dangerous leap—particularly with America's history of unjustly targeting and convicting black men—that fair-minded people would be wise to consider more carefully before condemning the artist. It is no accident that one of Jackson’s favorite books (and movies) was To Kill a Mockingbird, a story about a black man—Tom Robinson—destroyed by false allegations.”
 

Scrooged

Well-Known Member
This thread has morphed from a relatively small issue with dire implications (Jackson and the overwhelming possibility of assaulting minors) to a larger lens with which to look at institutionalized sexual abuse in the United States. I think that speaks volumes as to where we are as a society when it comes to this issue. It’s an elephant in the room most definitely, but as far as American societal politics go it may as well be a savannah sanctuary filled with other pachyderms.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
This thread has morphed from a relatively small issue with dire implications (Jackson and the overwhelming possibility of assaulting minors) to a larger lens with which to look at institutionalized sexual abuse in the United States. I think that speaks volumes as to where we are as a society when it comes to this issue. It’s an elephant in the room most definitely, but as far as American societal politics go it may as well be a savannah sanctuary filled with other pachyderms.
I agree with you. Society has come along way on many issues now.
With that..Accusations are enough to satisfy our need to prove how aware and just we are, to make up for all the times “we” were wrong... the only problem is, we’re doing a great disservice to the past, present, and future by losing our ability to look at something clearly. This is how we end up finding ourselves prey to false stories and faked attacks.
There’s a balance in the middle, we have to find it.
 

DfromATX

Well-Known Member
Haven’t watched (since I currently don’t have HBO), but I do think that if MJ had survived and lived to the #MeToo era, he would have been named like Harvey Weinstein, Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, R. Kelly, and Kevin Spacey.

Since he’s been gone for 10 years though, it’s different. We’re not going to be able to hear his side of things from a present perspective. He denied it in the past (and these things were all brought up in the past). I’m not defending his actions at all, because they were always on the questionable side. I am saying though that we won’t get to hear his side of the story anymore.

I will say this though- I feel so bad for his kids, Paris especially. They all have seemed to have had serious mental health struggles since their father’s death, and this can’t be easy for any of them.
I agree with your post. I'm not defending him either, but he's not here to defend himself. None of us know the truth.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
Yes and no. I don’t think it’s “normal” to us because we’re normal (relatively, right? ;) )... MJ never has a memory where he wasn’t famous, or performing. Not one.
That’s not normal. I can’t fathom what that would be like. I understood his want/need for Neverland, because I thought “He has the money, why not give himself the childhood favorites that he never had”. I understood why he gravitated to children.. for 2 reasons- because they couldn’t take advantage of him, and he wanted to help them, because he uniquely understood what they were going thru.

There was a time when I thought the accusations could be true, but then I watched person after person come out and defend him, and I thought about the way he always conducted himself.. I realized that I believed he was innocent. When you think about his passion for goodness, a better world, the planet.. all of it, the idea that he could hurt someone just doesn’t mesh with the sensitivity he showed, in public and in private (according to first hand accounts of friends).

I think he is one of the most, if not the most, misunderstood person of my lifetime. How could we be expected to understand him though? It’s too difficult to grasp all of it. There was nothing normal about his life in our terms of what normal is. I just don’t believe that it has to equal “wrong” or “child molester”. There’s too much that shows otherwise.
You lost me in there, and I think you're ignoring the whole reason why people are suspicious of MJ.

The issues are not because he acted like a child, had a big ranch with lots of toys and rides, or even inviting kids to tour the place and meet him. If behavior like that was the extent of his weirdness, some people might raise eyebrows but there really wouldn't be a thread tying it all together into "probably a pedophile". These seemed like the "fun" aspects of him and his life. On their own, I have zero issues with them, it isn't illegal or morally wrong to be harmlessly eccentric or even insane.

The straw that breaks the camel's back to me is the bedroom situation. MJ kept tons of locks on his bedroom door, and was very upfront about how kids slept with him in his bed. He also didn't like parents and would try to separate them from the kids and get them alone with him whenever possible. His staunch defenders would probably try to wave this away with "oh that was just his innocent naive personality, MJ had a rough childhood and bad experiences with his own parents". But if literally ANYONE else exhibited this behavior, it would be roundly agreed as obscenely creepy, inappropriate, and absurdly suspicious. And especially with the subject of pedophilia, it's behavior that reeks particularly strongly of grooming.

If these details don't seem like a Titanic-sized red flag to you or anyone else, then i'm Mickey Mouse. This doesn't mean I believe his accusers are honest or reliable either. There are, as you said, obvious red flags on their part that shouldn't be waved away. But I cannot justify ignoring MJ's own red flags, nor can I understand why anyone else can.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
You lost me in there, and I think you're ignoring the whole reason why people are suspicious of MJ.

The issues are not because he acted like a child, had a big ranch with lots of toys and rides, or even inviting kids to tour the place and meet him. If behavior like that was the extent of his weirdness, some people might raise eyebrows but there really wouldn't be a thread tying it all together into "probably a pedophile". These seemed like the "fun" aspects of him and his life. On their own, I have zero issues with them, it isn't illegal or morally wrong to be harmlessly eccentric or even insane.

The straw that breaks the camel's back to me is the bedroom situation. MJ kept tons of locks on his bedroom door, and was very upfront about how kids slept with him in his bed. He also didn't like parents and would try to separate them from the kids and get them alone with him whenever possible. His staunch defenders would probably try to wave this away with "oh that was just his innocent naive personality, MJ had a rough childhood and bad experiences with his own parents". But if literally ANYONE else exhibited this behavior, it would be roundly agreed as obscenely creepy, inappropriate, and absurdly suspicious. And especially with the subject of pedophilia, it's behavior that reeks particularly strongly of grooming.

If these details don't seem like a Titanic-sized red flag to you or anyone else, then i'm Mickey Mouse. This doesn't mean I believe his accusers are honest or reliable either. There are, as you said, obvious red flags on their part that shouldn't be waved away. But I cannot justify ignoring MJ's own red flags, nor can I understand why anyone else can.
I answered your question on what I think, explaining what I think. I’m not quite sure how you got lost by those words.

We should try to stick to facts here, and when not sticking to facts, recognize our own opinions. Saying “he didn’t like parents” is not a fact, it’s actually easily disputable, including in the videos I posted. I don’t know about all of the “tons of locks” on his bedroom door.. I’ve never heard that before, only the doorbell sound, I should add that I wouldn’t be surprised at this.

In your entire post though, it’s speculation, as is mine (based on several personal accounts, not tabloids or changed stories). It’s not proof though, either one.
We don’t destroy people based on a speculation, especially when they had a long investigation, and were acquitted.

Are you saying we should label him as guilty?
 
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DisneyGigi

Well-Known Member
Wasn’t Corey Feldman older, like past puberty, teenage when he started hanging out with MJ? The age he apparently cut most of his relationships with boys off? Know Culkin was young but seemed to die off a little when he got older as well. More sporadic.
I just find it very odd that if he was so about taking these kids, everywhere- but very few of the relationships lasted to adulthood or even late teens.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
I answered your question on what I think, explaining what I think. I’m not quite sure how you got lost by those words.

We should try to stick to facts here, and when not sticking to facts, recognize our own opinions. Saying “he didn’t like parents” is not a fact, it’s actually easily disputable, including in the videos I posted. I don’t know about all of the “tons of locks” on his bedroom door.. I’ve never heard that before, only the doorbell sound, I should add that I wouldn’t be surprised at this.

In your entire post though, it’s speculation, as is mine (based on several personal accounts, not tabloids or changed stories). It’s not proof though, either one.
We don’t destroy people based on a speculation, especially when they had a long investigation, and were acquitted.

Are you saying we should label him as guilty?
Difficult to say. Are you referring to an actual jury decision or just public opinion? Or just my own opinion?

I can only really give my own personal opinion, and the most definitive answer i'm comfortable giving is that I would label him as absurdly suspicious and at least inappropriate with children. I don't know with certainty if this ever escalated into actual molestation. But I do think it's a lot easier to understand the reasoning of those who do fully believe he's guilty than those who adamantly defend his innocence.
 
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mf1972

Well-Known Member
i came home from work the other night & tried to watch a little bit just to wind down. big mistake! had to turn it off after 15 minutes. i’ll try to watch it again some other time.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
Wasn’t Corey Feldman older, like past puberty, teenage when he started hanging out with MJ? The age he apparently cut most of his relationships with boys off? Know Culkin was young but seemed to die off a little when he got older as well. More sporadic.
I just find it very odd that if he was so about taking these kids, everywhere- but very few of the relationships lasted to adulthood or even late teens.
Ryan White was older too, 17 or 18 I think.
ETA- I should add Mark Lester too. I think he was a teen, and they stayed very close..visiting with his own kids.

The kids thing is pretty easy, they were young, and he wanted to help them. I can’t even count how many times that has been said in interviews.

Difficult to say. Are you referring to an actual jury decision or just public opinion? Or just my own opinion?

I can only really give my own personal opinion, and the most definitive answer i'm comfortable giving is that I would label him as absurdly suspicious and at least inappropriate with children. I don't know with certainty if this ever escalated into actual molestation. But I do think it's a lot easier to understand the reasoning of those who do fully believe he's guilty than those who adamantly defend his innocence.
Maybe you’ve been lost on all of my posts.lol
I’ll try to repeat what I’ve already repeated..

I believe he is innocent. I think he is a victim.
I understand that there are some people who have always thought he was guilty. That’s ok.
The documentary? Not ok.
Taking statues down and refusing to okay his music? Definitely not ok.


I was out tonight and heard 2 MJ songs, the world hasn’t gone completely mad.
 
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Kram Sacul

Well-Known Member
Came here for the overly dramatic outrage and pearl clutching over the "documentary". Wasn't disappointed. I guess this stuff has to be reheated every 10 years or so to try to get some money and publicity.
 
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Ariel1986

Well-Known Member
I found this interview very interesting. At the end he begins to say the documentary describes a very familiar/realistic description of the grooming process and that you must listen to victims. He even admits he may not be a reliable source/character witness to who MJ may really have been.

Corey Feldman "I can no longer defend Michael Jackson"


ETA: There seems to be a correlation on this subject of people who don't believe Wade Robson and James Safechuck and those who haven't watched/refuse to watch the documentary. If you watch both parts and all 4 hours it addresses a lot of the "red flags" and past behaviour of these two men which many of MJ's supporters claim makes them unreliable. It makes the defense of MJ and rebuttals towards the two men hold little weight, apart from naivety and outright delusion.
 
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BuddyThomas

Premium Member
You are absolutely delusional. The only person causing drama is you.

Congratulations on becoming the first person on my ignore list! I'm sure the forums will be far more enjoyable for me without having to scroll through your endless tirades.
She was the first person on my ignore list too! Unfortunately, every now and then I take a peek at ignored content, and sure enough, she’s still being insufferable all over the place about every single thing.
 

Sir_Cliff

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It was definitely different back in those days...at least as I remember my childhood. I remember a teacher sexually assaulted several boys at my school back in the early 80s and instead of being locked up, he was transferred to a different school where he continued to teach. I know this because my father was an admin at the school and I overheard him discussing it with my mom. I was friends with a couple of the boys and it really shook me up. Anyway, I don’t know why they did that. Was it because the boys weren’t believed? Was it because the crime was so disgusting that people didn’t know how to deal with it? I don’t know. But with regards to MJ, I remember feeling so relieved when he was found innocent while at the same time thinking that if someone asked me to sleep with my kids in the same bed (I didn’t have kids yet but was thinking about it the future) that I would have beat the hell out of them. After the trial, I remember still loving his music but thinking he was the weirdest creepiest human being on the planet and wondering why those parents were willing to just leave their kids with him for overnight slumber parties or whatever.
You do also hear all these stories about people trusting their kids spending time with priests outside of church and school spaces, sometimes as far as going on camping trips alone together. I imagine no-one would go along with that now, but perhaps up until not that long ago there was a sense that certain sorts of people would never do such a thing. In that regard, I can understand how at least initially parents might have just discounted the possibility that Michael Jackson - the world's biggest pop star with a very wholesome persona - was someone they'd have to watch out for.

One comment from the mother of James Safechuck did strike me in that regard, though. She recalled that Michael had told her at one point that she should have a word to James about holding his hand in public because, even though nothing was going on, you know how people are (or words to that effect). It seemed to me that a grown man spending inordinate amounts of time with your child mentioning that people will think he's in a sexual relationship with your child even though "nothing's going on" would be a little like a bucket of cold water that would make you make you sit up and question what exactly was going on.
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
Worth repeating-

“It is tempting for the media to tie Jackson into a larger cultural narrative about sexual misconduct. R. Kelly was rightfully taken down by a documentary, and many other high-profile figures have been exposed in recent years, so surely, the logic goes, Michael Jackson must be guilty as well. Yet that is a dangerous leap—particularly with America's history of unjustly targeting and convicting black men—that fair-minded people would be wise to consider more carefully before condemning the artist. It is no accident that one of Jackson’s favorite books (and movies) was To Kill a Mockingbird, a story about a black man—Tom Robinson—destroyed by false allegations.”
Oh, the irony that it should be us, the resident racists, who would resist a lynch mob of a Black man. ;)

I used to be quite convinced of MJ's guilt, wouldn't listen to his music, until our dear @raven24 posted some material to the contrary.
Since then I remain undecided, maybe this documentary will change my mind, maybe I'll find it one-sided activism.

I wouldn't let any of my kids come anywhere near this man, that much is true. But also, as tough as it can be, the principle of innocent until proven guilty exists for a reason. There is no nastier and dumber saying than 'where there is smoke there is fire'. 25 years of unproven allegations remain unproven allegations.


What does disturb me is how a convicted rapist such as Mike Tyson is now a cult hero, gets offered roles in light-hearted comedies, is a hero in some circles of anti-feminism movements.
 
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