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Michael Jackson

Princess Leia

Well-Known Member
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Haven’t watched (since I currently don’t have HBO), but I do think that if MJ had survived and lived to the #MeToo era, he would have been named like Harvey Weinstein, Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, R. Kelly, and Kevin Spacey.

Since he’s been gone for 10 years though, it’s different. We’re not going to be able to hear his side of things from a present perspective. He denied it in the past (and these things were all brought up in the past). I’m not defending his actions at all, because they were always on the questionable side. I am saying though that we won’t get to hear his side of the story anymore.

I will say this though- I feel so bad for his kids, Paris especially. They all have seemed to have had serious mental health struggles since their father’s death, and this can’t be easy for any of them.
 

Sir_Cliff

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I was a big fan of Michael Jackson when I was younger and always believed his denials, but even before this documentary I had come to the conclusion a few years back that society at large had decided for the most part to ignore the likely reality of these abuse allegations because we didn't want to give up the music. Having watched the documentary, more than anything else I think MJ's own behaviour makes you wonder why so many of us bought his story about enjoying sleepovers and rather intense companionships with young boys in a completely innocent fashion for so many years.

The reason I brought it up here is that I'm not quite sure what to do with that information now! I would find it hard to listen to his music again, but I do wonder to what extent he will be erased from the popular culture or whether most people will just go on ignoring the documentary and abuse claims.

I do feel sorry for his kids, too. Who knows what these kids have already had to live through.
 

BuddyThomas

Premium Member
I was a big fan of Michael Jackson when I was younger and always believed his denials, but even before this documentary I had come to the conclusion a few years back that society at large had decided for the most part to ignore the likely reality of these abuse allegations because we didn't want to give up the music. Having watched the documentary, more than anything else I think MJ's own behaviour makes you wonder why so many of us bought his story about enjoying sleepovers and rather intense companionships with young boys in a completely innocent fashion for so many years.

The reason I brought it up here is that I'm not quite sure what to do with that information now! I would find it hard to listen to his music again, but I do wonder to what extent he will be erased from the popular culture or whether most people will just go on ignoring the documentary and abuse claims.

I do feel sorry for his kids, too. Who knows what these kids have already had to live through.
I don't think he will be erased, There is a Michael Jackson musical opening on Broadway next summer, and the producers just announced that the show will go on as scheduled despite this new documentary.

 

righttrack

Well-Known Member
About 2/3 through the first one. It's getting harder and harder to watch. I had no idea such prominent kids (onstage and seen with him regularly) were a part of this. I remember seeing these kids in concert clips on the news. The parents were as starstruck as the kids and it was clear he was grooming the parents as well as the kids to normalize this behavior. If you replaced "Michael Jackson" with any other person you recently met in any of these situations, the parents would have never let the kid go. I'm also shocked at how young these kids were. Again, it's interesting but it's hard to watch.
 

Scrooged

Well-Known Member
It’s interesting to see that in the ultra-information age nothing is sacred. Thanks to the availability and profitability of celebrity the layers of insulation that used to surround being famous is peeled away.

There were agencies that handled this- now there are agencies that spin this. That’s he biggest difference between the 80s Hollywood and now. (At least in terms of social currency.) I think Michael Jackson made so much money that he was able to pay for impenetrable insulation from most public scrutiny. The fact that he went to trial was amazing- and the fact that he was found innocent of the charges brought against him was amazing even more. (But please note, the same people who brought charges also settled civil lawsuits out of court for large sums of money. So there’s something to these allegations.)

All in all- times have changed as far as information distribution. And I think that plays a key role in how people can’t use their fame to insulate them from wrong doing.
 
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Sir_Cliff

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
About 2/3 through the first one. It's getting harder and harder to watch. I had no idea such prominent kids (onstage and seen with him regularly) were a part of this. I remember seeing these kids in concert clips on the news. The parents were as starstruck as the kids and it was clear he was grooming the parents as well as the kids to normalize this behavior. If you replaced "Michael Jackson" with any other person you recently met in any of these situations, the parents would have never let the kid go. I'm also shocked at how young these kids were. Again, it's interesting but it's hard to watch.
Yeah, I find it hard to describe the feeling of watching it. The whole process of sucking these whole families into his orbit so he could get close to the kids and then working to pull the kids away from the family was jaw dropping. What I found even more stunning was how obvious it all seems looking at it now. As you say, in what world would you send your 8 or 10 year-old kid off to sleep in the same room as a man in his thirties you barely knew and essentially leave them alone to "play" for days on end? Then again, he never hid that from the rest of us, either. I think we all remember even before the allegations first surfaced that he was always wandering around with a young boy in tow, often holding hands, and plenty of us just gave him the benefit of the doubt. If some random guy living down the street was acting like that, however...

If Twitter is anything to go by, people are in such intense denial that it won’t matter.
Oh yes, the fans have gone into overdrive. The emergence of the Michael Jackson truthers is another strange phenomenon that this documentary has unearthed.

I don't think he will be erased, There is a Michael Jackson musical opening on Broadway next summer, and the producers just announced that the show will go on as scheduled despite this new documentary.

I'll be interested to see if that does end up going ahead, as well as what happens to the Cirque du Soleil show in Vegas. Both might be an early barometer of where the culture is on Michael Jackson after all of this.
 

Scrooged

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I find it hard to describe the feeling of watching it. The whole process of sucking these whole families into his orbit so he could get close to the kids and then working to pull the kids away from the family was jaw dropping. What I found even more stunning was how obvious it all seems looking at it now. As you say, in what world would you send your 8 or 10 year-old kid off to sleep in the same room as a man in his thirties you barely knew and essentially leave them alone to "play" for days on end? Then again, he never hid that from the rest of us, either. I think we all remember even before the allegations first surfaced that he was always wandering around with a young boy in tow, often holding hands, and plenty of us just gave him the benefit of the doubt. If some random guy living down the street was acting like that, however...


Oh yes, the fans have gone into overdrive. The emergence of the Michael Jackson truthers is another strange phenomenon that this documentary has unearthed.


I'll be interested to see if that does end up going ahead, as well as what happens to the Cirque du Soleil show in Vegas. Both might be an early barometer of where the culture is on Michael Jackson after all of this.
Regardless of what happens this seems to be a big milestone in the legacy of Jackson and his family's affairs. Oprah has her hands in this as well. It will be interesting to see if the public's opinion changes after her interview with the two gentlemen airs.
 

Princess Leia

Well-Known Member
Regardless of what happens this seems to be a big milestone in the legacy of Jackson and his family's affairs. Oprah has her hands in this as well. It will be interesting to see if the public's opinion changes after her interview with the two gentlemen airs.
Oprah being the one to do the interview is huge. I remember her interview with his family a couple years after he died. The fact that she is the person who interviewed the men is a very big deal, and I think it’s recognized as such.

I remember listening to the 2005 innocent verdict on the radio with my dad, and I remember finding out that MJ had died- only 4 years apart, and overall, public opinion changed almost overnight. And I think public opinion really stayed like that until this documentary came out.

Michael Jackson was the King of Pop. This isn’t going to be as easy as some of the others. This is going to be difficult if, as a society, we choose to give up his music. Like, I was never a mega MJ fan, but there are a lot of songs I enjoy (I was singing Human Nature in my kitchen the other day). But it is an important discussion to be having.

(I’m not planning on getting HBO until the new season of Game of Thrones comes out, so I’m going to have to wait to watch).
 

BuddyThomas

Premium Member
I'm betting that they cancel the Broadway musical that is supposed to open next summer. The book of that musical is to be written by Pulitzer winner Lynne Nottage, and she doesn't put up with whitewashing and crap like that.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member

Scrooged

Well-Known Member
I'm betting that they cancel the Broadway musical that is supposed to open next summer. The book of that musical is to be written by Pulitzer winner Lynne Nottage, and she doesn't put up with whitewashing and crap like that.
Axing the Broadway musical is a possibility- but I suspect that if it's pulled it will be by the producers and not the estate of Jackson. That may in and of itself end up in an interesting legal case. Time remains to be seen on that.

As far as musical legacy, Jackson was a legend. No doubt about it. His popularity will live on through his art- and we can also observe that other famous artists were also not the best human beings and their music/art lives on to this day and is beloved. (Lennon and Elvis spring to mind.) I don't think that it has to be mutually exclusive- but I do think that there will be a backlash over his music for awhile until this dies down. The one song that will live on (pun intended) long after this controversy is over is "Thriller." I can't imagine Halloween without hearing that song-and honestly I wouldn't want it missing from the airwaves during that time of year.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
MHis popularity will live on through his art- and we can also observe that other famous artists were also not the best human beings and their music/art lives on to this day and is beloved. (Lennon and Elvis spring to mind.)
But those artists weren’t accused of paedophilia, which is a far more difficult charge for someone’s reputation to survive.
 

Scrooged

Well-Known Member
But those artists weren’t accused of paedophilia, which is a far more difficult charge for someone’s reputation to survive.
Yeah- Lennon was just a giant *******, but Elvis was basically R. Kelly but a rock icon.... I see where you are coming from- but I don’t quite agree. That’s not to say any of his artistry excuses his actions... just that time has a way of making things a bit hazy when it comes to culture and influence.
 
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