Michael Jackson

[LittleBuford]

Among those testifying in Jackson's defense are actor Macaulay Culkin, James Safechuck and Wade Robson.

This is incorrect. Safechuck spoke in Jackson’s behalf at a deposition in 1993 but refused to testify during the 2005 trial, revealing to his mother that Jackson had indeed abused him. The fact that he told his mother so long before going public is another reason I believe him.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

I just finished the second part. Really harrowing stuff, but also necessary viewing. I can't believe what the cult of celebrity allows us to overlook and just outright ignore.

I'm sorry to hear of the effect it's had on you. I'm "lucky" in that I was never a big fan and therefore have little attachment to (or nostalgic associations with) his music.

To be honest, I think I went the other way from most people regarding Jackson. I gave him the benefit of the doubt while he was alive but after he died increasingly came to the conclusion that the circumstantial evidence was pretty hard to ignore regarding an unhealthy relationship between him and children. I haven't listened to his music in a long time, but never really "knowing" has, I think, given people permission to enjoy it when it's played. I suppose we'll never know for certain, so maybe that state of affairs will largely continue. I remember Stephen Merchant being interviewed by Norm Macdonald a few years commenting that the public reaction to these scandals seemed proportionate to the quality of the work of the individual involved, specifically citing how people were ready to banish Garry Glitter's music but looking the other way from allegations about MJ because they don't want to sit through wedding receptions without Billie Jean. I think there's something to that!

I think what was most impactful about the documentary for me was the process of grooming families and children and then mix of emotions for the children involved. Particularly the description of a mix of love and affection with abuse that has these longterm effects on how people process abuse was something I'd never heard described so clearly and convincingly before.

 

[21stamps]

looking the other way from allegations about MJ because they don't want to sit through wedding receptions without Billie Jean.

I just want to comment on this line. I think it’s so much deeper than that for most people. His music is phenomenal of course, every aspect of it.. writing, performance, dance, originality, the thought that went behind each tiny detail.
Beyond that, Michael Jackson as a person, starting from a young child, what he endured, what he did for so many people- the help that he was so passionate about, the amazing amounts of charity, the way he changed the world and broke barriers, and how he was abused even as an adult. Ultimately his life ended at the worst time, due to someone who was abusing him once more.

All of that put together is what makes him such a beloved figure.

 

[xdan0920]

I just want to comment on this line. I think it’s so much deeper than that for most people. His music is phenomenal of course, every aspect of it.. writing, performance, dance, originality, the thought that went behind each tiny detail.
Beyond that, Michael Jackson as a person, starting from a young child, what he endured, what he did for so many people- the help that he was so passionate about, the amazing amounts of charity, the way he changed the world and broke barriers, and how he was abused even as an adult. Ultimately his life ended at the worst time, due to someone who was abusing him once more.

All of that put together is what makes him such a beloved figure.

But also, he diddled kids. Soooo.....yeah.....

 

[LittleBuford]

To be honest, I think I went the other way from most people regarding Jackson. I gave him the benefit of the doubt while he was alive but after he died increasingly came to the conclusion that the circumstantial evidence was pretty hard to ignore regarding an unhealthy relationship between him and children. I haven't listened to his music in a long time, but never really "knowing" has, I think, given people permission to enjoy it when it's played. I suppose we'll never know for certain, so maybe that state of affairs will largely continue. I remember Stephen Merchant being interviewed by Norm Macdonald a few years commenting that the public reaction to these scandals seemed proportionate to the quality of the work of the individual involved, specifically citing how people were ready to banish Garry Glitter's music but looking the other way from allegations about MJ because they don't want to sit through wedding receptions without Billie Jean. I think there's something to that!

I think what was most impactful about the documentary for me was the process of grooming families and children and then mix of emotions for the children involved. Particularly the description of a mix of love and affection with abuse that has these longterm effects on how people process abuse was something I'd never heard described so clearly and convincingly before.

I’m not sure how and why, because, as I said, I was never a real fan, but I somehow convinced myself that he was sharing his bed with those boys without ever touching them. While I felt it was wrong and sexually motivated, I bought into the idea that he was too childlike to ever act on his urges. This isn’t to say that I’d never considered the grim alternative before the documentary; rather, I just didn’t entertain the idea long enough to definitively change my mind. I’m quite embarrassed by and even ashamed of this wilful nativity.

And I think you’re absolutely right that it’s the sheer popularity and pervasiveness of his music that discourages people from doubting his innocence. I’m interested to see how this all plays out in the years ahead.

 

[21stamps]

I’m not sure how and why, because, as I said, I was never a real fan, but I somehow convinced myself that he was sharing his bed with those boys without ever touching them. While I felt it was wrong and sexually motivated, I bought into the idea that he was too childlike to ever act on his urges. This isn’t to say that I’d never considered the grim alternative before the documentary; rather, I just didn’t entertain the idea long enough to definitively change my mind. I’m quite embarrassed by and even ashamed of this wilful nativity.

And I think you’re absolutely right that it’s the sheer popularity and pervasiveness of his music that discourages people from doubting his innocence. I’m interested to see how this all plays out in the years ahead.

Or maybe consider that people take into account years of stories from people who knew him... and the way he treated people..both in a professional and personal environment.
Now add in the results and aftermath of the original accusers and their families.

I’m a little surprised at myself for defending him so heavily. I didn’t expect this movie hit me the way it did. Opposite of many here, obviously.

The man suffered so much, I admit that the possibility of guilt is there, but I hate to see a possibility turn into a mob of people declaring guilt. We will never know if it happened, but we know that he was exonerated in life. We know what the world inflicted on him. With the absense of being able to prove guilt at this point, and the once-again red flags of the current accusers possible agenda, shouldn’t we just leave him be? Or are we now trying to damage his children as much as we all caused damage to their father?

There are a handful of amazingly eccentric talented changed the world type people, who without their damaged souls we wouldn’t have the gifts they gave. MJ was one of them. That damaged eccentricity could have been innocent, or maybe it wasn’t. A maybe is a maybe though, right? Is a maybe enough to convict someone beyond any reasonable doubt?

 

[LittleBuford]

Or maybe consider that people take into account years of stories from people who knew him... and the way he treated people..both in a professional and personal environment.
Now add in the results and aftermath of the original accusers and their families.

I’m a little surprised at myself for defending him so heavily. I didn’t expect this movie hit me the way it did. Opposite of many here, obviously.

The man suffered so much, I admit that the possibility of guilt is there, but I hate to see a possibility turn into a mob of people declaring guilt. We will never know if it happened, but we know that he was exonerated in life. We know what the world inflicted on him. With the absense of being able to prove guilt at this point, and the once-again red flags of the current accusers possible agenda, shouldn’t we just leave him be? Or are we now trying to damage his children as much as we all caused damage to their father?

There are a handful of amazingly eccentric talented changed the world type people, who without their damaged souls we wouldn’t have the gifts they gave. MJ was one of them. That damaged eccentricity could have been innocent, or maybe it wasn’t. A maybe is a maybe though, right? Is a maybe enough to convict someone beyond any reasonable doubt?

Listen, this is my personal response to the situation, as I’ve already made clear. By all means continue listening to his music and believing his innocence. I can’t do the latter and so won’t be doing the former. I’m happy with my decision, and certainly more comfortable with it than I (personally) would be with the alternative.

ETA: “Damaged eccentricity” is a strangely euphemistic way of framing possible child abuse. He may not conform to our typical image of a paedophile, but the acts of which he’s being accused are no less horrific than those of a more conventional molester.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

I’m not sure how and why, because, as I said, I was never a real fan, but I somehow convinced myself that he was sharing his bed with those boys without ever touching them. While I felt it was wrong and sexually motivated, I bought into the idea that he was too childlike to ever act on his urges. This isn’t to say that I’d never considered the grim alternative before the documentary; rather, I just didn’t entertain the idea long enough to definitively change my mind. I’m quite embarrassed by and even ashamed of this wilful nativity.

And I think you’re absolutely right that it’s the sheer popularity and pervasiveness of his music that discourages people from doubting his innocence. I’m interested to see how this all plays out in the years ahead.

Or maybe consider that people take into account years of stories from people who knew him... and the way he treated people..both in a professional and personal environment.
Now add in the results and aftermath of the original accusers and their families.

I’m a little surprised at myself for defending him so heavily. I didn’t expect this movie hit me the way it did. Opposite of many here, obviously.

The man suffered so much, I admit that the possibility of guilt is there, but I hate to see a possibility turn into a mob of people declaring guilt. We will never know if it happened, but we know that he was exonerated in life. We know what the world inflicted on him. With the absense of being able to prove guilt at this point, and the once-again red flags of the current accusers possible agenda, shouldn’t we just leave him be? Or are we now trying to damage his children as much as we all caused damage to their father?

There are a handful of amazingly eccentric talented changed the world type people, who without their damaged souls we wouldn’t have the gifts they gave. MJ was one of them. That damaged eccentricity could have been innocent, or maybe it wasn’t. A maybe is a maybe though, right? Is a maybe enough to convict someone beyond any reasonable doubt?

I do think some of the tendency that it seems most of us here had in the past or still have to give him the benefit of the doubt comes from a good place and not just the cult of celebrity.

For me personally, my feelings about him were connected to the idea that just because someone is different that doesn't make them a monster who should be mocked and shunned from society. He obviously had a troubled childhood and the plastic surgery provoked more compassion than revulsion from me because it was so sad that such a handsome guy would be driven by something inside of themselves to do that to themselves. There is, though, a lizard man who has tattooed his whole body and forked his tongue to look like a lizard, and I would take a live and let live approach with him too! So, in a way, MJ's eccentricities were understandable if you were open minded. The fact that he faced hideous allegations and constant ridicule only made me feel more inclined to defend him when he was alive, so I certainly understand that instinct now.

What we seem to be left with after the documentary is that either we were right to give him the benefit of the doubt or that the people who branded him a monster were right all along. The latter option is not very comforting for reasons that go beyond Michael Jackson.

 

[LittleBuford]

I do think some of the tendency that it seems most of us here had in the past or still have to give him the benefit of the doubt comes from a good place and not just the cult of celebrity.

For me personally, my feelings about him were connected to the idea that just because someone is different that doesn't make them a monster who should be mocked and shunned from society. He obviously had a troubled childhood and the plastic surgery provoked more compassion than revulsion from me because it was so sad that such a handsome guy would be driven by something inside of themselves to disfigure themselves in that way. So, in a way, his eccentricities were also understandable if you were open minded. The fact that he faced hideous allegations and constant ridicule only made me feel more inclined to defend him when he was alive, so I certainly understand that instinct now.

What we seem to be left with after the documentary is that either we were right to give him the benefit of the doubt or that the people who branded him a monster were right all along. The latter option is not very comforting for reasons that go beyond Michael Jackson.

I agree with you to a large extent, but it still disturbs and puzzles me that so many of us were ever OK with his intense relationships with young boys. Acceptance of (and sympathy for) his eccentricities should not have entailed overlooking such plainly inappropriate behaviour.

 

[21stamps]

I agree with you to a large extent, but it still disturbs and puzzles me that so many of us were ever OK with his intense relationships with young boys. Acceptance of (and sympathy for) his eccentricities should not have entailed overlooking such plainly inappropriate behaviour.

Those boys have said repeatedly that he did not harm them, minus the two lawsuits that had their own red flags when it came to the accusers.
He filled his estate with cancer patients and kids who experienced sudden fame as he did.

People could understand that because of how he was, and how everyone in his life described him.

I do think some of the tendency that it seems most of us here had in the past or still have to give him the benefit of the doubt comes from a good place and not just the cult of celebrity.

For me personally, my feelings about him were connected to the idea that just because someone is different that doesn't make them a monster who should be mocked and shunned from society. He obviously had a troubled childhood and the plastic surgery provoked more compassion than revulsion from me because it was so sad that such a handsome guy would be driven by something inside of themselves to do that to themselves. There is, though, a lizard man who has tattooed his whole body and forked his tongue to look like a lizard, and I would take a live and let live approach with him too! So, in a way, MJ's eccentricities were understandable if you were open minded. The fact that he faced hideous allegations and constant ridicule only made me feel more inclined to defend him when he was alive, so I certainly understand that instinct now.

What we seem to be left with after the documentary is that either we were right to give him the benefit of the doubt or that the people who branded him a monster were right all along. The latter option is not very comforting for reasons that go beyond Michael Jackson.

Black or White is one of his most insightful songs, imo. Pain, Anger, Love... a message to everyone who was ridiculing him.

This is what I was talking about yesterday, not that song, but the change in him. It’s so sad to look at his photos throughout the years. A lot of the change was due to his skin disease, and then the fire, but the other plastic surgery was a sad search for perfection, when it really achieved the opposite. If you really think about, his entire life was designed to please others, and to demand perfection from himself.

 

[xdan0920]

Those boys have said repeatedly that he did not harm them, minus the two lawsuits that had their own red flags when it came to the accusers.
He filled his estate with cancer patients and kids who experienced sudden fame as he did.

People could understand that because of how he was, and how everyone in his life described him.



Black or White is one of his most insightful songs, imo. Pain, Anger, Love... a message to everyone who was ridiculing him.

This is what I was talking about yesterday, not that song, but the change in him. It’s so sad to look at his photos throughout the years. A lot of the change was due to his skin disease, and then the fire, but the other plastic surgery was a sad search for perfection, when it really achieved the opposite. If you really think about, his entire life was designed to please others, and to demand perfection from himself.

Plus he diddled little kids.

 

[21stamps]

Plus he diddled little kids.

If you haven’t noticed, I’m not sure if I believe that. Question for you, If your son was molested by someone whom you trusted, and who was extremely famous and had access to other kids, would you settle? Or would you fight to have that person convicted?

 

[xdan0920]

If you haven’t noticed, I’m not sure if I believe that. Question for you, If your son was molested by someone whom you trusted, and who was extremely famous and had access to other kids, would you settle? Or would you fight to have that person convicted?

It’s irrelevant what I would do.

Tell you what though, I know what I wouldn’t do...

If I was accused of the things he was accused of and I was innocent, I wouldn’t pay out 10s of millions of dollars to make those accusations go away.

 

[righttrack]

I'll probably regret doing this, but I'll bite.

If by "stupid", you're referencing the radio station for pulling Michael's songs, why? Why is that stupid? Why should stations idolize this man after what's been revealed?

And mind you, I too am one of those anti-angry mob people. I believe we all do stupid things. But this isn't another Roseanne, Curt Schilling, etc. incident of another celebrity saying ignorant things. This has to do with the molestation of children. So why are radio stations stupid for pulling his content?

And if I happened to misread your comment, and you were calling Michael's actions stupid (a far understatement), and not directing that toward the radio station, then disregard my confusion.

I hate everything Michael Jackson did (if he really did do it and it sure sounds like he did). Assuming that, the art stands on it's own. Boycotting his music serves no one. Not the boys, not the musicians that played on it, not his estate which is basically his family which did not perpetrate these acts. I'm strongly in the anti-boycott team for just about everything.

 

[Santa Raccoon 77]

It’s irrelevant what I would do.

Tell you what though, I know what I wouldn’t do...

If I was accused of the things he was accused of and I was innocent, I wouldn’t pay out 10s of millions of dollars to make those accusations go away.

Only cause you couldn't afford that much

 

[xdan0920]

I hate everything Michael Jackson did (if he really did do it and it sure sounds like he did). Assuming that, the art stands on it's own. Boycotting his music serves no one. Not the boys, not the musicians that played on it, not his estate which is basically his family which did not perpetrate these acts. I'm strongly in the anti-boycott team for just about everything.

Why does it have to benefit anyone? Maybe it's just better to not play a child molesters music?

 

[xdan0920]

Only cause you couldn't afford that much

Says you.

 

[Santa Raccoon 77]

Says you.

 

[21stamps]

Why does it have to benefit anyone? Maybe it's just better to not play a child molesters music?

We don’t know that for certain. I guess we could all just start finding people guilty based on an accusation. Get rid of criminal and civil court altogether.. just hire someone to stamp- “GUILTY”.

We could save a ton of money in taxes.

 

[21stamps]

It’s irrelevant what I would do.

Tell you what though, I know what I wouldn’t do...

If I was accused of the things he was accused of and I was innocent, I wouldn’t pay out 10s of millions of dollars to make those accusations go away.

There’s a lot more to the story.