Meg and Co. Head West ...

[RSoxNo1]

I disagree that it's "all personal opinion." While entertainment quality isn't completely quantifiable, to a large degree, it is. I stand by my statement that Disneyland, dollar for dollar, is offering something that is objectively "more" than Walt Disney World. It could be my opinion that $3 is more than $5, but that doesn't mean my opinion isn't wrong. This isn't quite the same, as comparing value does require some value judgments to be made, but to say it's all personal opinion is also inaccurate.

As I explicitly said in my post, I love Walt Disney World as well. I think a lot of good things are currently happening in Florida, and in some regards, I think the ship is being righted. I think Walt Disney World surpasses Disneyland in many regards. Perhaps I'm overly optimistic. All of that said, at the end of the day, I have absolutely no doubt that on November 7, 2011, you get objectively more for your vacation dollar at Disneyland than you do at Walt Disney World.

I can accomplish more in an average day at Disneyland/DCA than I can at an average day in Disney World. Having said that, I think Disneyland does not use Fastpass as effeciently as Disney World, but there are also "loopholes" in the California system (I spent a day in August trying to figure out all of the rides that are connected/disconnected).

With the California parks being so close to one another, and them both having significant attraction lineups it makes a single day in either resort more worthwhile in California. The separation of the Florida parks necessitates a longer stay, and as such I feel I can easily spend a week at WDW whereas in California I'd be looking to do something else after 4 or 5 days.

 

[Pioneer Hall]

I'll give you the Walt days.

Not sure why I get that, but not on my points about the 80s and how the company was looking to start selling off parts to keep it above water. Whatever floats your boat I suppose...

 

[WDW1974]

Yeah, what's with that? The past couple of years they have taken FOREVER to remove holiday decorations from both parks and resorts. This leads to ridiculous situations where you have Christmas music blasting and all the decorations up on MLK weekend. It's just tacky, and didn't used to be the case.

But hey, if you can get away with cutting your holiday services payroll by 50% I guess its worth it.

That's about it.

There was a time when stuff went up overnight and came down the same way. It still is that way in ... Tokyo ... check out what happens between 12/25 and 12/26.

Now, here we've always celebrated a season, so it's perfectly acceptable to have Christmas decor up until New Year's or the weekend following it.

But Disney has tried to extend the stuff in the parks (I think this year as late as 1/8) to help pump up crowds during a month that used to be one of the slowest of the year. And hotel decor comes down waaaaay post that. I have checked into resorts on MLK weekend and still had Christmas trees and holiday music loops playing and that just isn't right.

Too bad Disney doesn't still have Valentine's Day hard ticket parties (the first ever ... way back in the 80s ... and more adult in nature!) or they'd have the resort all decked out for that season as soon as the New Year's confetti was picked up!:xmas:

~GFC~

 

[HMF]

Times change. It happens. It IS a business.

Pathetic default excuse.

 

[HMF]

OK, so why, if the same person is in charge of it all, is one allowed the proper budget and manpower to do it right, and the other isn't?!?! That makes absolutely NO business sense that I can think of. :shrug:

Welcome to modern economics. It doesn't make sense but they do it any way.

 

[WDW Vacationer]

Not sure why I get that, but not on my points about the 80s and how the company was looking to start selling off parts to keep it above water. Whatever floats your boat I suppose...

The 80s issues weren't because Disney insisted on quality, like what I was saying. They just took on 2 huge resort projects at once and put out crappy films.

 

[WDW1974]

A few random observations:

1. No one truly "knows" what TLM waits will be like at MK with FastPass, but I think we can make reasonable inferences based upon capacity, competing FastPass attractions, etc. At DHS, are there any other popular family-oriented FastPass attractions? Heck, are there many family attractions (that are rides) at all? The Magic Kingdom has a plethora of other family FP attractions. Given that and TLM's high capacity, I think we're looking at Winnie the Pooh length waits, at the very worst. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if TLM eventually lost FastPass, much like Mansion has. Obviously, this is "in my opinion."

Nah, I think you're looking more at Pan like waits. ... I still cringe at the waits for the very ordinary TSMM and how much worse they are because TDO demanded FP for it. Likely why I almost exclusively ride it in Anaheim.

2. We're heading to Disneyland for Christmas season for the first time this year. I've stayed intentionally ignorant to what the decorations look like (besides accidentally seeing a few pics in Dateline Disneyland before closing the window!), but from what I've heard, they're better than Walt Disney World's in a per-unit comparison.

I've never heard of them described that way, but ... yeah, they are better, much better than WDW's on any metric you choose.:xmas:

On the topic of this "per-unit" comparison, I hate that fans pull out resort-wide offerings when comparing Walt Disney World to Disneyland. Walt Disney World is exponentially larger than Disneyland. It has double the number of parks, and significantly more resorts. All of these additional parks and resorts generate additional revenue. (If the average Walt Disney World vacation now costs $7,000, I'm betting the average Disneyland Resort-only SoCal vacation costs around $3,000.) Compare apples-to-apples. Magic Kingdom to Magic Kingdom. WDW's second most popular park to DCA. WDW's top three resorts to DLR's three resorts. To argue that WDW does less per park but more in the aggregate is a flawed argument because it fails to recognize that in aggregate, WDW generates SIGNIFICANTLY more revenue.

That's what I always say. Comparing WDW to DL as resorts is difficult because size means WDW can offer more (although I sure wish they wouldn't have wasted so much of that land with so little of substance).

But compare MK to DL. Very fair.

Compare EPCOT to DCA. Very fair.

Compare Grand Californian with Grand Floridian. Very fair etc.

3. On the flip side of this, I'd be careful when pointing to DLR's free holiday offerings as justification that WDW should do the same. Halloween now costs money at Disneyland. If I were a betting man, I'd wager that Christmas will next year when Disneyland is even more of a tourist destination. WDW "gives away" the parade and fireworks close to Christmas because of higher crowds. It wouldn't be viable for TDO to close the MK for a ticketed event at 7 pm 3 nights a week during that busy period. It irritates me that MVMCP is a $60 event that costs significantly more (for less entertainment) than three years ago, but that's the nature of the business. If people voted with their wallets and stopped attending the parties, Disney would (presumably) respond in kind. For us, I'd much rather drop $80 on two party tickets (love that CM discount this year!) than visit closer to Christmas and deal with that chaos.

People want to feel special and for some bizarre reason (the Walmarting/Dumbing down of society as a whole?) many folks (even some locals) seem to think MVMCP is somehow a special exclusive event when it gets more taken away annually. So, holding the parade, pyro and stage shows hostage until as late as possible (12/19 this year I believe, as late as 12/23 in recent years) makes the parades more special and exclusive. I have gone to the event, but only paid once back in 1997 (when it was a whole lot better, even without the pyro show). Since then I've only gone on comps and will continue to do so. I won't reward TDO holding Christmas hostage.

4. Country Bear Christmas is a sore subject for me. I am a sucker for irreverence, so Country Bear Jamboree is right up my alley. It's been stated that WDW doesn't offer Haunted Mansion Holiday because the park wants to present the classic version of the attraction to once in a lifetime guests. I think the shady logic behind this has been refuted, but here's more "evidence" that the move has more to do with dollars than anything else: why not offer the Country Bear Christmas overlay at Walt Disney World?

Certainly this relatively unpopular attraction isn't the cornerstone of any once-in-a-lifetime vacation. It's an attraction that is largely popular with more frequent guests, and the Christmas overlay always gave it a bit of a spike in attendance (based on my anecdotal observations). So why not do that overlay in the interest of offering something special to the "hardcore" fan audience?

The reason it's not run, I'm almost positive, is because TDO has deemed that the ROI on that specific overlay doesn't justify doing the overlay. I would speculate this is the same actual justification for not doing HMH in WDW. The convenient excuse of catering to once-in-a-lifetime Guests (who aren't returning anyway!) for HMH is just that: an excuse. The same excuse doesn't fly with CBC. Viewing the ROI on each individual attraction and detail and making decisions based upon that is what started WDW down this path of "trimming fat" and offering less. It's a dangerous course. You can only cut so much fat before you hit muscle and bone.

Oh wait, Disney doesn't have the rights to the music in CBC. Right...

All great points, Tom. And the $$$ needed to changeover CBJ is very, very low ... I believe in the neighborhood of $15,000.

~GFC~

 

[WDW1974]

Country Bears got canned because at that time, retro-attractions weren't "cool", it had poor attendance, was in poor shape prior to its recent refurb, and scored badly in the guest surveys. MK was moving onto bigger and better things, with the castle dream lights. Which as we know, are very popular with guests.

The above was a recipe to discontinue it.

CBJ X-mas got canned because Disney didn't want to spend the tiny amount of money needed to switch it over and because it knew it could get away with cutting it.

I seem to recall (where's the inevitable post questioning my memories) that the holiday show always drew near full houses when I saw it as compared to the original show.

Oh, and the CBJ holiday show was axed years before Dreamlights had even been thought of.

~GFC~

 

[WDW Vacationer]

Country Bears got canned because at that time, retro-attractions weren't "cool", it had poor attendance, was in poor shape prior to its recent refurb, and scored badly in the guest surveys. MK was moving onto bigger and better things, with the castle dream lights. Which as we know, are very popular with guests.

The above was a recipe to discontinue it.

Excuses excuses.

With proper care, CBJ could have been just as popular as ever then. And CBJ Christmas was axed long before the Dream lights. And cutting something to have something else is never an excuse for anything.

 

[WDW1974]

It does generate significantly more revenue, but also requires significantly more running costs - which is something that often gets overlooked when talking about DLR vs WDW.

With the entertainment offerings I do think it is a valid argument to look at the aggregate of DLR vs the aggregate of WDW. Most guests will visit all parks when visiting either WDW or DLR. Disney know this, and design entertainment offerings around this idea - on both coasts.

I absolutely (not surprisingly, perhaps) couldn't disagree more.

People do NOT visit every park, no matter how much Disney wishes they did. This has been a justification for neglecting things and stagnation under the guise 'they're dumb tourists ... they can just take a bus to another park'.

Folks not blinded by pixie dust or held captive by DME often go to UNI's parks or SW's or Cape Canaveral or beaches etc as part of their trips.

I just sent a friend to WDW for the first time as a father (four-year old twins) and he is spending four days in the parks starting this weekend, but very likely will spend all of it at MK and DAK. He thinks EPCOT is too big and has too little for his kids ... and he loves DAK and they love animals. Says he may do Studios for half a day, but it seems doubtful. So, for him, it only matters what is happening at MK and DAK (anything good, bad or ugly at the others simply won't mean anything to him!)

MK's entertainment has to stand on its own.

~GFC~

 

[WDW1974]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WDW1974
Sounds great ... but you do know Disney is going to have RFID bracelets by then so that you can charge things with a swipe of the wrist (like it's play money -- see Food and WIne Fest wrist cards!) and you'll be able to schedule FPs from home ... and Daisy Duck will be able to speak your kid's name when she meets the little angel.

I ask you HOW ... HOW ... HOW the heck can UNI possibly compete with that?

~GFC~

Well obviously Universal can't compete with that so they have to settle for multiple blockbuster attractions that will place the audience in amazing environments, entertain and "WOW" them with innovative show and ride concepts, and exceed their expectations. These are of course outdated ideas that domestic Disney used to be bound to deliver. Thankfully they have been released from this obligation to their customers and can now deliver cookie-cutter experiences and watered down cheap entertainment for all to enjoy.

I just felt the need to repost this so perhaps it sinks in. Folks may hate me, (well not nearly as many as they'd like to believe!):drevil: but one might think the words of someone who has worked for both companies and has knowledge of the industry intimately might wake some up from their Pixie Dusted slumber.

BTW, love that Once Upon a Time on ABC ... but I do know some folks who work on it too!

~GFC~

 

[WDW1974]

As for the Dream Lights being a replacement for CBC, again, I don't like this justification. Paris and DLR have the lights--what overlay did they cut to get them? There used to be a time when Disney simply added without a corresponding subtraction. I understand it's operating a business, but invoking the "it's a business" argument to justify every corner that gets cut rubs me the wrong way.

Oh. C'mon, Tom. What's wrong with you?!??! You a damn Commie?!?!:ROFLOL:

That line about business is what is destroying this country (forget WDW for now) and is why so many in the 99% support the 1% that are pillaging, rifling and looting ... and have their escape homes abroad in case people ever do wake up and take to the streets.

Disney is a business. Sure. And in 21st century America that apparently is a blatent blanket excuse to give as little as possible while constantly raising prices and profit margins. It isn't sustainable in any form and people are slowly waking up from their fast food comas and realizing that.

Pound for pound, dollar for dollar, Disneyland offers more than Walt Disney World. I love Walt Disney World, and likely always will. I know I've come across as a "Disneyland defender" (or otherwise skewed towards DLR), but there's a reason for it. Disneyland is offering more bang for buck right now than Walt Disney World. Sure, it doesn't have the same scope or scale as Walt Disney World, but when comparing them on even terms, Disneyland is doing what it does better than Walt Disney World.

Yes, it is.

And I am hoping to get in a day there next month during a business trip to SoCal (so long as I don't actually have to pay to get in!)

~GFC~

 

[HMF]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WDW1974
but one might think the words of someone who has worked for both companies and has knowledge of the industry intimately might wake some up from their Pixie Dusted slumber.

If only!:shrug:

 

[ScoutN]

Pathetic valid excuse.

Corrected that for you.

Although I do not agree with it being carried out that way it is true.

 

[HMF]

That line about business is what is destroying this country (forget WDW for now) and is why so many in the 99% support the 1% that are pillaging, rifling and looting ... and have their escape homes abroad in case people ever do wake up and take to the streets.

Not to go too far in this direction but I am frankly amazed it took this long for the Wall Street Occupation to happen. It should have happened years ago.

 

[HMF]

Corrected that for you.

Although I do not agree with it being carried out that way it is true.

Maybe valid to the penny pinching Sharp Pencil Boys in TDO.:wave:

 

[ScoutN]

Maybe valid to the penny pinching Sharp Pencil Boys in TDO.:wave:

Did I deny that? Nope. :wave:

 

[wdwmagic]

CBJ X-mas got canned because Disney didn't want to spend the tiny amount of money needed to switch it over and because it knew it could get away with cutting it.

I seem to recall (where's the inevitable post questioning my memories) that the holiday show always drew near full houses when I saw it as compared to the original show.

Oh, and the CBJ holiday show was axed years before Dreamlights had even been thought of.

~GFC~

You are a long way off with that last sentence.

Country Bears Christmas got axed in 2006.

Castle Dream Lights began development in 2004, debuted in DLP as a test site in 2005 and debuted at WDW in 2007.

 

[wdwmagic]

Excuses excuses.

With proper care, CBJ could have been just as popular as ever then. And CBJ Christmas was axed long before the Dream lights. And cutting something to have something else is never an excuse for anything.

You need to check your facts before you blindly follow what WDW1974 (incorrectly in this case) says.

Country Bears Christmas got axed in 2006.

Castle Dream Lights began development in 2004, debuted in DLP as a test site in 2005 and debuted at WDW in 2007.

 

[kapeman]

And it's even odder to me that WDW is spending a Billion dollars on NextGen stuff to enable people to plan and plot out every hour of their vacations months in advance. A housewife in Ohio in 2013 will sit at her kitchen table four months before the family WDW trip and she will plot out thrice-daily meal times that work around Junior's food allergy and daily Fastpass times for all E and D Tickets and perfectly precious Princess meetings and pretend-spontaneous audiences with the Mouse who will already know your name and a parade viewing time on day three at a designated section of curb from 2:50 to 3:15 PM. PHEW!

And if you run late to any of these pre-planned appointments, your iPhone will beep at you that you are running hopelessly behind schedule and were due in Fantasyland two minutes ago. :hammer:

But this same group in TDO, and those who defend them, claim that WDW can't do rehabs or offer seasonal offerings because people show up at MCO with so little planning and foresight given to their trip that they expect everything to be running and everything to be available to them, and one single rehab will RUIN THEIR VACATION when they stride up to Small World in late October and see that it's closed for 10 days to turn it into Small World Holiday that no one ever told them about!

Great point.

There are certain aspects of the NextGen RFID project that I think are great, interactivity and location awareness, but I am not a big fan of the FP reservations.

And I LOVE to plan out my ADR's.

We plan, and almost obsess, about park hours and ADRs leading up to our trips, but once we are there, we are very loose about what we do.

I finally saw the light on our last big trip and no longer have to attack the parks like a commando.