Major 2015 Pirates of the Caribbean Refurbishment Watch/Rumor.

Nick Wilde

Well-Known Member
A little cherry picking of facts?

Using Snopes as a source, fairly respectable, only 2 of the listed deaths at Disneyland have ever been attributed to Disney, and the first one that was also was attributed to oversight failures as well.

While your statement may hold some truth (not knowing if the maintenance budget cut happened or was responsible for the 1st death personally), the statement you made tries to paint a much worse picture than the reality actually is. Here are the list of Disneyland deaths


  • May 1964: Mark Maples, a 15-year-old Long Beach, CA, resident, was killed when he tried to stand up on the Matterhorn Bobsleds. Maples (or his companion) foolishly unbuckled his seatbeat and attempted to stand up as their bobsled neared the peak of the mountain. Maples lost his balance and was thrown from the sled to the track below, fracturing his skull and ribs and causing internal injuries. He died three days later.


  • June 1966: Thomas Guy Cleveland, a 19-year-old Northridge, CA, resident, was killed when he attempted to sneak into Disneyland along the Monorail track. Cleveland scaled the park's sixteen-foot high outer fence on a Grad Nite and climbed onto the Monorail track, intending to jump or climb down once inside the park. Cleveland ignored a security guard's shouted warnings of an approaching Monorail train and failed to leap clear of the track. He finally climbed down onto a fiberglass canopy beneath the track, but the clearance wasn't enough — the oncoming train struck and killed him, dragging his body 30 to40 feetdown the track.


  • August 1967: Ricky Lee Yama, a 17-year-old Hawthorne, CA, resident, was killed when he disregarded safety instructions and exited his People Mover car as the ride was passing through a tunnel. Yama slipped as he was jumping from car to car and was crushed to death beneath the wheels of oncoming cars.


  • June 1973: Bogden Delaurot, an 18-year-old Brooklyn resident, drowned trying to swim across the Rivers of America. Delaurot and his 10-year-old brother managed to stay on Tom Sawyer Island past its dusk closing time by climbing the fence separating the island from the burning settlers' cabin. When they decided to leave the island a few hours later, they chose to swim across the river rather than call attention to their rule-breaking by appealing to cast members for help. Because the younger brother did not know how to swim, Delaurot tried to carry him on his back as he swam to shore. Bogden Delaurot went down about halfway across the river. The younger boy remained afloat by dogpaddling until a ride operator hauled him aboard a boat, but Bogden was nowhere to be found. His body was not located by searchers until the next morning.


  • 7 June 1980: Gerardo Gonzales, a recent San Diego high school graduate, was killed on the People Mover in an accident much like the one that had befallen Ricky Lee Yama thirteen years earlier. Gonzales, in the early morning hours of a Grad Nite celebration, was climbing from car to car as the People Mover entered the SuperSpeed Tunnel adjacent to the former America Singsbuilding. Gonzales stumbled and fell onto the track, where an oncoming train of cars crushed him beneath its wheels and dragged his body a few hundred feet before being stopped by a ride operator.


  • 4 June 1983: Philip Straughan, an 18-year-old Albuquerque, New Mexico, resident, also drowned in the Rivers of America in yet another Grad Nite incident. Straughan and a friend — celebrating both their graduations and Straughan's eighteenth birthday — had been drinking quite heavily that evening. They sneaked into a "Cast Members Only" area along the river and untied an inflatable rubber maintenance motorboat, deciding to take it for a joyride around the river. Unable to adequately control the boat, they struck a rock near Tom Sawyer Island, and Straughan was thrown into the water. His friend traveled back to shore to seek help, but Straughan drowned long before his body was finally located an hour later.


  • 3 January 1984: Dolly Regene Young, a 48-year-old Fremont, CA, resident, was killed on the Matterhorn in an incident remarkably similar to the first Disneyland guest death nearly twenty years earlier. About two-thirds of the way down the mountain Young was thrown from her seat into the path of an oncoming bobsled, her head and chest becoming pinned beneath its wheels. An examination of Young's sled revealed that her seatbelt was not fastened at the time of the accident, but because she was riding alone in the rear car of a sled no one could determine whether or not she had deliberately unfastened her belt.


  • 24 December 1998: In a tragic Christmas Eve accident, one Disneyland cast member and two guests were injured (one fatally) when a rope used to secure the sailing ship Columbia as it docked on the Rivers of America tore loose the metal cleat to which it was attached. The cleat sailed through air and struck the heads of two guests who were waiting to board the ship, Luan Phi Dawson, 33, of Duvall, Washington, and his wife, Lieu Thuy Vuong, 43. Dawson was declared brain dead two days later and died when his life support system was disconnected.


    This accident resulted in the first guest death in Disneyland's history that was not attributable to any negligence on the part of the guest (it was the result of a combination of insufficiently rigorous ride maintenance and an insufficiently experienced supervisor's assuming an attraction operator's role) and prompted a movement for greater government oversight of theme park operations and safety procedures.


  • 5 September 2003: A 22-year-old man, Marcelo Torres of Gardena, California, died, and several other guests were injured, when a locomotive separated from its train along a tunnel section of Big Thunder Mountain Railroad. Torres bled to death after suffering blunt force trauma of the chest.
Well, that's a cheerful post to read.
 

imagineer boy

Well-Known Member
A little cherry picking of facts?

Using Snopes as a source, fairly respectable, only 2 of the listed deaths at Disneyland have ever been attributed to Disney, and the first one that was also was attributed to oversight failures as well.

While your statement may hold some truth (not knowing if the maintenance budget cut happened or was responsible for the 1st death personally), the statement you made tries to paint a much worse picture than the reality actually is. Here are the list of Disneyland deaths


  • May 1964: Mark Maples, a 15-year-old Long Beach, CA, resident, was killed when he tried to stand up on the Matterhorn Bobsleds. Maples (or his companion) foolishly unbuckled his seatbeat and attempted to stand up as their bobsled neared the peak of the mountain. Maples lost his balance and was thrown from the sled to the track below, fracturing his skull and ribs and causing internal injuries. He died three days later.


  • June 1966: Thomas Guy Cleveland, a 19-year-old Northridge, CA, resident, was killed when he attempted to sneak into Disneyland along the Monorail track. Cleveland scaled the park's sixteen-foot high outer fence on a Grad Nite and climbed onto the Monorail track, intending to jump or climb down once inside the park. Cleveland ignored a security guard's shouted warnings of an approaching Monorail train and failed to leap clear of the track. He finally climbed down onto a fiberglass canopy beneath the track, but the clearance wasn't enough — the oncoming train struck and killed him, dragging his body 30 to40 feetdown the track.


  • August 1967: Ricky Lee Yama, a 17-year-old Hawthorne, CA, resident, was killed when he disregarded safety instructions and exited his People Mover car as the ride was passing through a tunnel. Yama slipped as he was jumping from car to car and was crushed to death beneath the wheels of oncoming cars.


  • June 1973: Bogden Delaurot, an 18-year-old Brooklyn resident, drowned trying to swim across the Rivers of America. Delaurot and his 10-year-old brother managed to stay on Tom Sawyer Island past its dusk closing time by climbing the fence separating the island from the burning settlers' cabin. When they decided to leave the island a few hours later, they chose to swim across the river rather than call attention to their rule-breaking by appealing to cast members for help. Because the younger brother did not know how to swim, Delaurot tried to carry him on his back as he swam to shore. Bogden Delaurot went down about halfway across the river. The younger boy remained afloat by dogpaddling until a ride operator hauled him aboard a boat, but Bogden was nowhere to be found. His body was not located by searchers until the next morning.


  • 7 June 1980: Gerardo Gonzales, a recent San Diego high school graduate, was killed on the People Mover in an accident much like the one that had befallen Ricky Lee Yama thirteen years earlier. Gonzales, in the early morning hours of a Grad Nite celebration, was climbing from car to car as the People Mover entered the SuperSpeed Tunnel adjacent to the former America Singsbuilding. Gonzales stumbled and fell onto the track, where an oncoming train of cars crushed him beneath its wheels and dragged his body a few hundred feet before being stopped by a ride operator.


  • 4 June 1983: Philip Straughan, an 18-year-old Albuquerque, New Mexico, resident, also drowned in the Rivers of America in yet another Grad Nite incident. Straughan and a friend — celebrating both their graduations and Straughan's eighteenth birthday — had been drinking quite heavily that evening. They sneaked into a "Cast Members Only" area along the river and untied an inflatable rubber maintenance motorboat, deciding to take it for a joyride around the river. Unable to adequately control the boat, they struck a rock near Tom Sawyer Island, and Straughan was thrown into the water. His friend traveled back to shore to seek help, but Straughan drowned long before his body was finally located an hour later.


  • 3 January 1984: Dolly Regene Young, a 48-year-old Fremont, CA, resident, was killed on the Matterhorn in an incident remarkably similar to the first Disneyland guest death nearly twenty years earlier. About two-thirds of the way down the mountain Young was thrown from her seat into the path of an oncoming bobsled, her head and chest becoming pinned beneath its wheels. An examination of Young's sled revealed that her seatbelt was not fastened at the time of the accident, but because she was riding alone in the rear car of a sled no one could determine whether or not she had deliberately unfastened her belt.


  • 24 December 1998: In a tragic Christmas Eve accident, one Disneyland cast member and two guests were injured (one fatally) when a rope used to secure the sailing ship Columbia as it docked on the Rivers of America tore loose the metal cleat to which it was attached. The cleat sailed through air and struck the heads of two guests who were waiting to board the ship, Luan Phi Dawson, 33, of Duvall, Washington, and his wife, Lieu Thuy Vuong, 43. Dawson was declared brain dead two days later and died when his life support system was disconnected.


    This accident resulted in the first guest death in Disneyland's history that was not attributable to any negligence on the part of the guest (it was the result of a combination of insufficiently rigorous ride maintenance and an insufficiently experienced supervisor's assuming an attraction operator's role) and prompted a movement for greater government oversight of theme park operations and safety procedures.


  • 5 September 2003: A 22-year-old man, Marcelo Torres of Gardena, California, died, and several other guests were injured, when a locomotive separated from its train along a tunnel section of Big Thunder Mountain Railroad. Torres bled to death after suffering blunt force trauma of the chest.

I do know that a vast majority of deaths happened at Disneyland because of stupidity of the guests, but the Sailing Ship Columbia and BTMRR incidents were the fault of Disney and from what I've gathered are due to maintenance cut backs. They should never have happened.
 

sshindel

The Epcot Manifesto
I do know that a vast majority of deaths happened at Disneyland because of stupidity of the guests, but the Sailing Ship Columbia and BTMRR incidents were the fault of Disney and from what I've gathered are due to maintenance cut backs. They should never have happened.
Here, I found a snip from the LA times that talks a little about it. While it is likely true that the new maintenance system implemented helped lead to the cause of the death, it seems to me that if I had paid a firm to develop a new maintenance system, and they told me it would be just as good and save millions of dollars, I'd probably greenlight it too. Note, the link doesn't seem to work, and I'll admit I cut and pasted it without being able to verify it.

http://www.latimes.com/news/lo
cal/la-me-ride3dec03
,1,762177.story?coll=la-headlines-california

>>After the crash, the state ordered Disneyland to retrain ride maintenance workers, managers and ride operators; to require a test run of all cars on Big Thunder Mountain before passengers are loaded; and to require that those who perform maintenance on rides be the ones who sign that the work was completed.

The Big Thunder Mountain crash was one of three major accidents during a five-year period at Disneyland in which ride maintenance arose as an issue. A patron was killed in 1998 when he was hit by an iron cleat that a taut rope tore from the Columbia sailing ship. Two years later, nine passengers were injured on Space Mountain when a bolt broke on a wheel assembly.

In 1997, Disneyland moved to a system of "reliability-centered maintenance," which relies on repair histories and failure rates - rather than the intuition of experienced workers - to determine how often a safety procedure needs to be performed.

A consultant hired by the park to plan the change estimated that Disneyland would save millions of dollars in maintenance costs.
But longtime workers said that staffing and maintenance procedures were pared back and that redundancies that provided an extra margin of safety were eliminated. Numerous veteran ride mechanics and supervisors were laid off, fired or retired.<<

>>Aitken acknowledged improvements in Disney maintenance since Torres' death, as well as growing support for national legislation governing theme park safety.

Disneyland has retrained machinists, maintenance workers and managers, he said, and a month after the accident instructed ride operators on what to do when an attraction behaved oddly - steps that pleased the Torres family.

"Marcelo's parents didn't want things to go right back to business as usual," Aitken said. "If their son had to die, they wanted his life to at least make someone safer in the future." <<
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
A little cherry picking of facts?

Using Snopes as a source, fairly respectable, only 2 of the listed deaths at Disneyland have ever been attributed to Disney, and the first one that was also was attributed to oversight failures as well.

While your statement may hold some truth (not knowing if the maintenance budget cut happened or was responsible for the 1st death personally), the statement you made tries to paint a much worse picture than the reality actually is. Here are the list of Disneyland deaths


  • May 1964: Mark Maples, a 15-year-old Long Beach, CA, resident, was killed when he tried to stand up on the Matterhorn Bobsleds. Maples (or his companion) foolishly unbuckled his seatbeat and attempted to stand up as their bobsled neared the peak of the mountain. Maples lost his balance and was thrown from the sled to the track below, fracturing his skull and ribs and causing internal injuries. He died three days later.


  • June 1966: Thomas Guy Cleveland, a 19-year-old Northridge, CA, resident, was killed when he attempted to sneak into Disneyland along the Monorail track. Cleveland scaled the park's sixteen-foot high outer fence on a Grad Nite and climbed onto the Monorail track, intending to jump or climb down once inside the park. Cleveland ignored a security guard's shouted warnings of an approaching Monorail train and failed to leap clear of the track. He finally climbed down onto a fiberglass canopy beneath the track, but the clearance wasn't enough — the oncoming train struck and killed him, dragging his body 30 to40 feetdown the track.


  • August 1967: Ricky Lee Yama, a 17-year-old Hawthorne, CA, resident, was killed when he disregarded safety instructions and exited his People Mover car as the ride was passing through a tunnel. Yama slipped as he was jumping from car to car and was crushed to death beneath the wheels of oncoming cars.


  • June 1973: Bogden Delaurot, an 18-year-old Brooklyn resident, drowned trying to swim across the Rivers of America. Delaurot and his 10-year-old brother managed to stay on Tom Sawyer Island past its dusk closing time by climbing the fence separating the island from the burning settlers' cabin. When they decided to leave the island a few hours later, they chose to swim across the river rather than call attention to their rule-breaking by appealing to cast members for help. Because the younger brother did not know how to swim, Delaurot tried to carry him on his back as he swam to shore. Bogden Delaurot went down about halfway across the river. The younger boy remained afloat by dogpaddling until a ride operator hauled him aboard a boat, but Bogden was nowhere to be found. His body was not located by searchers until the next morning.


  • 7 June 1980: Gerardo Gonzales, a recent San Diego high school graduate, was killed on the People Mover in an accident much like the one that had befallen Ricky Lee Yama thirteen years earlier. Gonzales, in the early morning hours of a Grad Nite celebration, was climbing from car to car as the People Mover entered the SuperSpeed Tunnel adjacent to the former America Singsbuilding. Gonzales stumbled and fell onto the track, where an oncoming train of cars crushed him beneath its wheels and dragged his body a few hundred feet before being stopped by a ride operator.


  • 4 June 1983: Philip Straughan, an 18-year-old Albuquerque, New Mexico, resident, also drowned in the Rivers of America in yet another Grad Nite incident. Straughan and a friend — celebrating both their graduations and Straughan's eighteenth birthday — had been drinking quite heavily that evening. They sneaked into a "Cast Members Only" area along the river and untied an inflatable rubber maintenance motorboat, deciding to take it for a joyride around the river. Unable to adequately control the boat, they struck a rock near Tom Sawyer Island, and Straughan was thrown into the water. His friend traveled back to shore to seek help, but Straughan drowned long before his body was finally located an hour later.


  • 3 January 1984: Dolly Regene Young, a 48-year-old Fremont, CA, resident, was killed on the Matterhorn in an incident remarkably similar to the first Disneyland guest death nearly twenty years earlier. About two-thirds of the way down the mountain Young was thrown from her seat into the path of an oncoming bobsled, her head and chest becoming pinned beneath its wheels. An examination of Young's sled revealed that her seatbelt was not fastened at the time of the accident, but because she was riding alone in the rear car of a sled no one could determine whether or not she had deliberately unfastened her belt.


  • 24 December 1998: In a tragic Christmas Eve accident, one Disneyland cast member and two guests were injured (one fatally) when a rope used to secure the sailing ship Columbia as it docked on the Rivers of America tore loose the metal cleat to which it was attached. The cleat sailed through air and struck the heads of two guests who were waiting to board the ship, Luan Phi Dawson, 33, of Duvall, Washington, and his wife, Lieu Thuy Vuong, 43. Dawson was declared brain dead two days later and died when his life support system was disconnected.


    This accident resulted in the first guest death in Disneyland's history that was not attributable to any negligence on the part of the guest (it was the result of a combination of insufficiently rigorous ride maintenance and an insufficiently experienced supervisor's assuming an attraction operator's role) and prompted a movement for greater government oversight of theme park operations and safety procedures.


  • 5 September 2003: A 22-year-old man, Marcelo Torres of Gardena, California, died, and several other guests were injured, when a locomotive separated from its train along a tunnel section of Big Thunder Mountain Railroad. Torres bled to death after suffering blunt force trauma of the chest.
Do some research on Paul Pressler's infamous "We have to ride these rides to failure" and his henchman T. Irby.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
I do know that a vast majority of deaths happened at Disneyland because of stupidity of the guests, but the Sailing Ship Columbia and BTMRR incidents were the fault of Disney and from what I've gathered are due to maintenance cut backs. They should never have happened.
This. Space Mountain was also reportedly in a very dangerous condition in 2000, a train derailed and injured some people. Thankfully relatively minor injuries in comparison, but it could have been much worse. The BTM and Columbia deaths are attributed to improper maintenance, they occurred during the infamous dark age of the resort (late 90's through just before the 50th cleanup) and were well publicized by Micechat and the mainstream media.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
And also do not forget that Disneyland got lucky with Space Mountain, which fell apart on Disney and had to be immediately closed without notice. The replacement project was not supposed to start for another month or two, but Disney was wrong in estimating how much longer they could push the coaster's structure. They literally pushed it to the breaking point.
 

spectromagic04

Well-Known Member
And also do not forget that Disneyland got lucky with Space Mountain, which fell apart on Disney and had to be immediately closed without notice. The replacement project was not supposed to start for another month or two, but Disney was wrong in estimating how much longer they could push the coaster's structure. They literally pushed it to the breaking point.
Sounds like what could happen with WDW
 

sshindel

The Epcot Manifesto
Do some research on Paul Pressler's infamous "We have to ride these rides to failure" and his henchman T. Irby.
Stuff like this:
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/nov/09/local/me-disney9/2

I'm not trying to excuse it really. I have no real skin in the game in Disneyland maintenance. My main reason for posting was mostly due to the fact that as I read the statement, it made it sound like the deaths were rampant. While 1 death is too many, it just didn't seem to be the case. It also could be how I read the initial post as well.

Either way, I've seen nothing near any of this at WDW, especially recently.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Stuff like this:
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/nov/09/local/me-disney9/2

I'm not trying to excuse it really. I have no real skin in the game in Disneyland maintenance. My main reason for posting was mostly due to the fact that as I read the statement, it made it sound like the deaths were rampant. While 1 death is too many, it just didn't seem to be the case. It also could be how I read the initial post as well.

Either way, I've seen nothing near any of this at WDW, especially recently.
Very few thought there were issues at Disneyland then one person died. It was chalked up to being a freak incident, and then a second person died. That got people talking, but even then a third ride fell apart and it was merely luck that the failure did not occur during the prior operating day.
 

sshindel

The Epcot Manifesto
Very few thought there were issues at Disneyland then one person died. It was chalked up to being a freak incident, and then a second person died. That got people talking, but even then a third ride fell apart and it was merely luck that the failure did not occur during the prior operating day.
The first one does have the appearance of a freak accident.
And again, WDW maintenance is IMO nowhere in the ballpark of this.
 

Prog

Well-Known Member
Is there a link to details of the Space Mountain failure? I've heard all about it here but see nothing about it elsewhere.
Also struggling to find the thread someone referenced regarding WDW Space Mountain, besides the relatively new one.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Is there a link to details of the Space Mountain failure? I've heard all about it here but see nothing about it elsewhere.
Also struggling to find the thread someone referenced regarding WDW Space Mountain, besides the relatively new one.
You won't find anything on the record.
 

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