Main Street U.S.A. hub redevelopment at the Magic Kingdom

[dstrawn9889]

hence this hub project

 

[articos]

Nowadays, you stand in Liberty Square and feel on top of the Contemporary. It just isn't supposed to be that way.

Out of all the castle parks, WDW's feels the most barren. Being in Central Florida, that is simply inexcusable.

Exactly.

Of course not ... Ops will always realize that Creative means 'spending money' ... of course, when you are in business ... any business let alone an incredibly lucrative one like WDW ... you MUST invest money from time to time in ways that won't show up on a balance sheet.

See above.

 

[Gabe1]

We have enjoyed Caribbean Beach (somewhat surprisingly given what you read here.).

Detour----We were given the option of Caribbean Beach or French Quarter for Discounts. How has CB been with the buses? All I can remember is how far out our room was, but it has been sooooo long ago.

 

[mm121]

does anyone know why they finally decided to remove the old swan dock after all these years ? it wasn't in the way of the new walkways or anything..

and ive heard people say it was a nice shady resting spot.

the only reasoning i can think of is that they are changing the theming of the other structures that look similar too it up by the castle, so they tore it down rather than retheming it

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

does anyone know why they finally decided to remove the old swan dock after all these years ? it wasn't in the way of the new walkways or anything..

and ive heard people say it was a nice shady resting spot.

the only reasoning i can think of is that they are changing the theming of the other structures that look similar too it up by the castle, so they tore it down rather than retheming it

I heard it was because the area around it is being raised for the additional paths which will make the path down to the swan dock to steep to be ADA compliant.

 

[Scuttle]

Perfect way of describing it. I often refer to it as mystery. Trees not only make things cooler by providing shade, but they also do (or did) a great job of separating things at the MK. Nowadays, you stand in Liberty Square and feel on top of the Contemporary. It just isn't supposed to be that way.
It's only a 250 year or so jump. What do you possibly mean
I get that many people like the 21st century shave all your body hair look of today's MK. ... They just have no taste.
Maybe those 80's playboys were onto something.


I only take special fanbois to Fudd's. (BTW, you just came up in a conversation where I was having Froyo and sorta mixed my own version of a citrus swirl only many times better than the MK's!)




I honestly do not get how anyone can say it looks better now. But I don't think giant fiberglass phallic symbols in the middle of what now feels like an outlet mall gone bad is a 'good look' ...

Out of all the castle parks, WDW's feels the most barren. Being in Central Florida, that is simply inexcusable.

Totally, it's also inexcusable IMO that they didn't take Fantasyland back further and rebuild the access road closer to the tracks. Now were locked in for who knows how long.

Edit: Sorry I just butchered that multi quote... Time for bed.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Totally, it's also inexcusable IMO that they didn't take Fantasyland back further and rebuild the access road closer to the tracks. Now were locked in for who knows how long.

Yes! It's a bit of a side-note, but when I saw the Fantasyland Repurposing plans this was one of my first thoughts too. Hemmed in forever. You'd wish that if they had to close 20k, at least the opening it created would've been used to expand FL further back. DL and DLP have added great expansions to the north of their original fantasylands, but the most visited castle park with the least to FL attractions hemmed itself in forever.

The utilidor access road could so easily have been redone to lead directly north, with a new bridge by the railroad.

 

[mm121]

Totally, it's also inexcusable IMO that they didn't take Fantasyland back further and rebuild the access road closer to the tracks. Now were locked in for who knows how long.

Edit: Sorry I just butchered that multi quote... Time for bed.

I definitely agree its crazy how they keep boxing themselves in, similar to what happened in frontetir land with the positioning of splash mountain.

Yes! It's a bit of a side-note, but when I saw the Fantasyland Repurposing plans this was one of my first thoughts too. Hemmed in forever. You'd wish that if they had to close 20k, at least the opening it created would've been used to expand FL further back. DL and DLP have added great expansions to the north of their original fantasylands, but the most visited castle park with the least to FL attractions hemmed itself in forever.

The utilidor access road could so easily have been redone to lead directly north, with a new bridge by the railroad.

not sure what disney's deal is with not wanting to expand park borders, i know in some places it can't be done due to backing up to interstates/etc but where it can be done it should be allowed for.

heres a pic of what they could of done,

i would of left beauty and the beast where it is and just moved little mermaid, and then added additional attractions or leave space to dream up a bunch.

orange - space freed up by moving mermaid
purple - fantasy expansion phase 2
red - ultimate fantasy expansion for the future.

pushing the border back would have enabled them to leave toontown intact, by placing dumbo and the big tops in a different location

 

[Fox&Hound]

I definitely agree its crazy how they keep boxing themselves in, similar to what happened in frontetir land with the positioning of splash mountain.



not sure what disney's deal is with not wanting to expand park borders, i know in some places it can't be done due to backing up to interstates/etc but where it can be done it should be allowed for.

heres a pic of what they could of done,

i would of left beauty and the beast where it is and just moved little mermaid, and then added additional attractions or leave space to dream up a bunch.

orange - space freed up by moving mermaid
purple - fantasy expansion phase 2
red - ultimate fantasy expansion for the future.

pushing the border back would have enabled them to leave toontown intact, by placing dumbo and the big tops in a different location

Yeah, it does seem like the area could have been pushed back, but I wonder how much backstage area they need for operations and maintenance, etc. Are there regulations that mandate how much ride space they use versus space for maintenance and operations (not worded well but you know what I mean)?

If they one day destroy the dumbo tents does that allow them to get back there, or no?

I often wonder if they won't one day dock the liberty belle and then expand up north in that direction. Wouldn't that allow them to go behind HM and access this unused area??? Not suggesting they should, but I could see it happening one day.

But, as many have said, build up the other parks and disperse crowds that way. I kinda like that MK is somewhat cozy. I hate that AK is such a large park but so little to do. I feel like I walk for miles and even though it does not feel cramped, it feels barren....

 

[mm121]

Yeah, it does seem like the area could have been pushed back, but I wonder how much backstage area they need for operations and maintenance, etc. Are there regulations that mandate how much ride space they use versus space for maintenance and operations (not worded well but you know what I mean)?

If they one day destroy the dumbo tents does that allow them to get back there, or no?

I often wonder if they won't one day dock the liberty belle and then expand up north in that direction. Wouldn't that allow them to go behind HM and access this unused area??? Not suggesting they should, but I could see it happening one day.

But, as many have said, build up the other parks and disperse crowds that way. I kinda like that MK is somewhat cozy. I hate that AK is such a large park but so little to do. I feel like I walk for miles and even though it does not feel cramped, it feels barren....

is there anything to do on tom sawyers island? just curious.

i would hate to see them destroy more of whats currently inside the park/vs expanding to currently unused area.

i dont know if mk is surrounded by wetlands like some have said is an issue with expanding the boarders on hollywood studios.

the area on the east of the tracks by dumbo, would be great to use in combination with the large area currently occupied by the cars. there is already a path back there so theoreticlly this area could be used without destroying dumbo.

Avatar land should help AK a little but its only adding 2 attractions currenty.. AK definitely has lots of potential like all the others from doing greater things in dino land, to evenn adding a whole new land (australia prehaps) i've thought up ways this could be done, but we could imagininer the parks ourselves for days and days and days.

 

[danlb_2000]

is there anything to do on tom sawyers island? just curious.

i would hate to see them destroy more of whats currently inside the park/vs expanding to currently unused area.

i dont know if mk is surrounded by wetlands like some have said is an issue with expanding the boarders on hollywood studios.

the area on the east of the tracks by dumbo, would be great to use in combination with the large area currently occupied by the cars. there is already a path back there so theoreticlly this area could be used without destroying dumbo.

Avatar land should help AK a little but its only adding 2 attractions currenty.. AK definitely has lots of potential like all the others from doing greater things in dino land, to evenn adding a whole new land (australia prehaps) i've thought up ways this could be done, but we could imagininer the parks ourselves for days and days and days.

The other thing to remember about replace vs expand is operating costs. They may choose to replace under-utilized attractions instead of building new so that there isn't as much of an increase in operating costs.

 

[steve2wdw]

Yes! It's a bit of a side-note, but when I saw the Fantasyland Repurposing plans this was one of my first thoughts too. Hemmed in forever. You'd wish that if they had to close 20k, at least the opening it created would've been used to expand FL further back. DL and DLP have added great expansions to the north of their original fantasylands, but the most visited castle park with the least to FL attractions hemmed itself in forever.

The utilidor access road could so easily have been redone to lead directly north, with a new bridge by the railroad.

That area could still be accessed....remove the bathrooms near Pinocchio Village Haus, cover the bus drop off and create a walkway (maybe through a tunnel) towards the rear of Small World, and it opens the whole back area. Of course, attractions would have to face north, with buildings up against the access road, but it would add lots of space right up to the tracks. A second access point to that open land could be constructed towards the east, with a tunnel alongside the railroad tracks (under the access road bridge) and moving the tent that held the FP for Dumbo and Barnstormer. Whenever development in this area has been discussed here, naysayers always said that it's a fireworks zone....but so is Towntown at DL. They just shut it down early. I sketched a version of a MK Toontown/Storybook Land to complement the NFL ages ago. I'll see if I can find it and post it.

 

[Gabe1]

but the theming and design of the original imagineers didn't take into account crowd levels of 2014.

That doesn't excuse a 21st century hub before a 16th century castle nor does it condone removing the trees that blocked sight lines into multiple themed lands.

The hub of yesteryear could hold the crowds of 2014. The only reason the hub is stressed with over capacity crowds is Disney has poor planning in the 21st century. Disney's missteps of creating a fireworks show and a castle projection show in an area that was incapable of handling the capacity that it draws is all on Disney.

Disney needs to create nighttime shows that can be seen throughout the parks utilizing the entire capacity of park not continuing to rework a hub that will never handle capacity crowds, it doesn't have the square footage for that. Yesteryear imagineers knew not to run a parade only on Main Street, they utilized multiple lands for capacity. Once Disney stops imagineering night time events that rely on stuffing capacity crowds in front of the castle the gridlock will stop. If Disney would just look at the real problem the answer is right there.

 

[ford91exploder]

That doesn't excuse a 21st century hub before a 16th century castle nor does it condone removing the trees that blocked sight lines into multiple themed lands.

The hub of yesteryear could hold the crowds of 2014. The only reason the hub is stressed with over capacity crowds is Disney has poor planning in the 21st century. Disney's missteps of creating a fireworks show and a castle projection show in an area that was incapable of handling the capacity that it draws is all on Disney.

Disney needs to create nighttime shows that can be seen throughout the parks utilizing the entire capacity of park not continuing to rework a hub that will never handle capacity crowds, it doesn't have the square footage for that. Yesteryear imagineers knew not to run a parade only on Main Street, they utilized multiple lands for capacity. Once Disney stops imagineering night time events that rely on stuffing capacity crowds in front of the castle the gridlock will stop. If Disney would just look at the real problem the answer is right there.

Once again you hit the issue with the people making the decisions DO NOT VISIT THE PARKS, The shows are designed by marketing types in Burbank and they decide that the 'iconic' castle must be front and center in their show. Hence requiring a vast expanse of empty concrete because the show is centered around a single viewpoint.

They don't know the park the the old school WDI types did and create shows that highlight each section of the park so you can't see ONE parade and done you need to see the parade from ALL sections of the park, - See how that drives multi-day visitation.

Idiots!

 

[mm121]

I heard it was because the area around it is being raised for the additional paths which will make the path down to the swan dock to steep to be ADA compliant.

makes sense, but i'm sure they could have figured it out if they wanted to, its just bad theres like zero rain protection anywhere around the hub, tables with the umbrellas by caseys dont really do much in a monsune.

Yeah, it does seem like the area could have been pushed back, but I wonder how much backstage area they need for operations and maintenance, etc. Are there regulations that mandate how much ride space they use versus space for maintenance and operations (not worded well but you know what I mean)?

If they one day destroy the dumbo tents does that allow them to get back there, or no?

I often wonder if they won't one day dock the liberty belle and then expand up north in that direction. Wouldn't that allow them to go behind HM and access this unused area??? Not suggesting they should, but I could see it happening one day.

I doubt theres official rules on backstage space, and it varies alot depending on type of attraction

rather than destroying the water around the liberty bell, ive come up with a plan that solves all the access issues for expansion. photo below

as this is off topic i made a new thread to discuss the below image
The Ultimate Magic Kingdom Expansion

The other thing to remember about replace vs expand is operating costs. They may choose to replace under-utilized attractions instead of building new so that there isn't as much of an increase in operating costs.

this is true, but they keep raising ticket prices, yet not raising wages, so not sure where all the extra money is going.

i know its not but it would be interesting to think about what disney would look like if it operated like a non profit reinvesting everything they make back into the company rather than working soley for the shareholders.

That area could still be accessed....remove the bathrooms near Pinocchio Village Haus, cover the bus drop off and create a walkway (maybe through a tunnel) towards the rear of Small World, and it opens the whole back area. Of course, attractions would have to face north, with buildings up against the access road, but it would add lots of space right up to the tracks. A second access point to that open land could be constructed towards the east, with a tunnel alongside the railroad tracks (under the access road bridge) and moving the tent that held the FP for Dumbo and Barnstormer. Whenever development in this area has been discussed here, naysayers always said that it's a fireworks zone....but so is Towntown at DL. They just shut it down early. I sketched a version of a MK Toontown/Storybook Land to complement the NFL ages ago. I'll see if I can find it and post it.

i like the idea of building by pinocchio village, rather than a tunnel going under, i'd build a walkway going up and over the access area, a long tunnel would feel dark and cramped. and going up and over could allow for some shops and kiosks to enjoy along the way.

That doesn't excuse a 21st century hub before a 16th century castle nor does it condone removing the trees that blocked sight lines into multiple themed lands.

The hub of yesteryear could hold the crowds of 2014. The only reason the hub is stressed with over capacity crowds is Disney has poor planning in the 21st century. Disney's missteps of creating a fireworks show and a castle projection show in an area that was incapable of handling the capacity that it draws is all on Disney.

Disney needs to create nighttime shows that can be seen throughout the parks utilizing the entire capacity of park not continuing to rework a hub that will never handle capacity crowds, it doesn't have the square footage for that. Yesteryear imagineers knew not to run a parade only on Main Street, they utilized multiple lands for capacity. Once Disney stops imagineering night time events that rely on stuffing capacity crowds in front of the castle the gridlock will stop. If Disney would just look at the real problem the answer is right there.

I like the idea of having multiple shows, maybe use some of the new plazas i created in my ultimate magic kingdom expantion photo, and discussed here.
The Ultimate Magic Kingdom Expansion

Once again you hit the issue with the people making the decisions DO NOT VISIT THE PARKS, The shows are designed by marketing types in Burbank and they decide that the 'iconic' castle must be front and center in their show. Hence requiring a vast expanse of empty concrete because the show is centered around a single viewpoint.

They don't know the park the the old school WDI types did and create shows that highlight each section of the park so you can't see ONE parade and done you need to see the parade from ALL sections of the park, - See how that drives multi-day visitation.

Idiots!

thats a problem with so many things, the decision makers dont actually get out and see whats going on with things.. THEY ONLY LOOK AT THE BALANCE SHEETS.

I like the idea of doing shows in multiple locations around the park, only problem is most sections dont really have a central place with capacity to do something, other than maybe the plaza of tommorrow land.


in my ultimate expansion pic, i highlighted some places that feature attractions for each land could be built to enable specific night shows for each region.

though i know the issue with that would be people complaining that theres too much to do, that they can't see all the shows, but that leaves things to see on multiple visit would would increase traffic at the end of the day, and the extra space wouldn't make it feel so cramped.

 

[Yensid71]

The only major problem with an expansion of Fantasyland where they push it back even further is that area is a major fallout area for the fireworks.

How may firework shells and burnt areas can you see when you are on the WDW Railroad?

If they did, they would have to close off that area and the area around the castle and clear that area of guests for the fireworks. Much like they had to do at The Studios back when they had fireworks.

 

[mm121]

The only major problem with an expansion of Fantasyland where they push it back even further is that area is a major fallout area for the fireworks.

How may firework shells and burnt areas can you see when you are on the WDW Railroad?

If they did, they would have to close off that area and the area around the castle and clear that area of guests for the fireworks. Much like they had to do at The Studios back when they had fireworks.

they close alot of fantasy land already, and have sprinklers on the roofs..

as fantasy land was just completed, i'd say it would be better to expand adventureland or tommorrowland first, they haven't had new attractions in forever, and completely avoid the fireworks issue.

along with they can't have a NEW NEW fantasyland for at least 10-15 years.

 

[steve2wdw]

The only major problem with an expansion of Fantasyland where they push it back even further is that area is a major fallout area for the fireworks.

How may firework shells and burnt areas can you see when you are on the WDW Railroad?

If they did, they would have to close off that area and the area around the castle and clear that area of guests for the fireworks. Much like they had to do at The Studios back when they had fireworks.

Addressed this....Disneyland closes Toontown for the night one hour before the fireworks. IF that area were ever used, the same operating procedures would probably have to be followed.

 

[Rob562]

they close alot of fantasy land already, and have sprinklers on the roofs..

They close the area immediately behind the castle, but that only means that two shops have to close. Every other attraction can still be accessed, and Guests trying to go through the Castle just have to be re-routed around.

Addressed this....Disneyland closes Toontown for the night one hour before the fireworks. IF that area were ever used, the same operating procedures would probably have to be followed.

Yes, but then you wouldn't be able to put any popular E-tickets back there. You'd have to close lines early so that Guests can be cycled through and cleared of the area. People seem to be taking Disney to task for the Mine Train not being a huge E-ticket thrill. Can you imagine the complaining that would come if they did such an expansion and only put in C and D-tickets that could be cleared relatively quickly?

Adding TSMM in the area that used to be the Studios' fallout zone pretty much killed any chance of them having a Sorcery-in-the-Sky-style show ever again. At best, they'd have to launch them farther back in the area of Catastrophe Canyon.

-Rob

 

[mm121]

They close the area immediately behind the castle, but that only means that two shops have to close. Every other attraction can still be accessed, and Guests trying to go through the Castle just have to be re-routed around.



Yes, but then you wouldn't be able to put any popular E-tickets back there. You'd have to close lines early so that Guests can be cycled through and cleared of the area. People seem to be taking Disney to task for the Mine Train not being a huge E-ticket thrill. Can you imagine the complaining that would come if they did such an expansion and only put in C and D-tickets that could be cleared relatively quickly?

Adding TSMM in the area that used to be the Studios' fallout zone pretty much killed any chance of them having a Sorcery-in-the-Sky-style show ever again. At best, they'd have to launch them farther back in the area of Catastrophe Canyon.

-Rob

Does anyone have a map showing the fireworks launch locations and this so called "fallout" zone? i thought most of the fireworks were shot from within MK just behind the castle in areas already occupied by buildings, except for the occassional perimitter shows that require closing the road around MK.