Magic Kingdom to lose ROA, Riverboat, and TSI for Cars Land

[PiratesMansion]

Are you saying he really said that? No way.

There was a whole topic about how he said the S word on stage at D23 while announcing something, genuinely don't remember if it was this project or one of the many others. He was excited and it came out of his mouth without thinking.

 

[mickEblu]

There was a whole topic about how he said the S word on stage at D23 while announcing something, genuinely don't remember if it was this project or one of the many others. He was excited and it came out of his mouth without thinking.

Lol that’s right. Forgot about that.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

I think the influence of inclusion concerns is way overblown and the Frontierland name is staying. Yes, it plays a part, as do many far more influential things. I’m skeptical of any take that appeals to anger, especially coming from someone whose success is measured by engagement. This awful ”Disney hates Americana” tweet is one such garbage take. Disney does not hate Americana, Disney is Americana. If Americana drove revenue in beverage sales or lightning lanes, then it would replace every last square foot of the Magic Kingdom.

I don’t buy the DEI angle either, this is purely a financial issue, they’ll make more money off this land as cars than they do as scenery, that’s all modern Disney cares about.

I’m hopeful they’ll surprise me and come up with a land that’s better utilized and beautiful but recent history isn’t on their side, we’ll likely have show buildings visible from the whole park that are simply painted go away green

 

[Consumer]

I think the influence of inclusion concerns is way overblown and the Frontierland name is staying.

Who cares about the name if it means nothing? I want the Old West.

Yes, it plays a part, as do many far more influential things. I’m skeptical of any take that appeals to anger, especially coming from someone whose success is measured by engagement. This awful ”Disney hates Americana” tweet is one such garbage take. Disney does not hate Americana, Disney is Americana. If Americana drove revenue in beverage sales or lightning lanes, then it would replace every last square foot of the Magic Kingdom.

Disney hates Americana. They didn't replace "To Honor America" in MSEP for profit, it was an ideological statement, just like the systematic removal of the Old West from Frontierland.

I don’t buy the DEI angle either, this is purely a financial issue, they’ll make more money off this land as cars than they do as scenery, that’s all modern Disney cares about.

If the loss of Rivers of America was the only change to Frontierland, then I could believe this, but given the removal of Splash, the Shooting Gallery, and the classic CBJ, I don't see how anyone can deny that Disney is deliberately trying to distance Frontierland from the Old West.

 

[Too Many Hats]

This is not being done because TWDC hates America or US history or education or any of the similar things being claimed here by a few. This is being done because the modern rulers and shakers of Disney do not understand the parks, their function, their history, or what people value, not because they feel, to paraphrase the ideas of some (or at least, the way I am interpreting their ideas), that America is now an offensive, off-limits topic that must be completely expunged from the parks.

But we need not throw out the baby with the bathwater by assuming there's some conspiracy at play here. Disney is stupid, and that's really all there is to it with this decision.

I agree with you regarding the incompetence of modern Disney. And that's primarily why I've opposed so many recent changes in the parks; not necessarily because the originals were so flawless (for example, CBJ was wonderful but by no means perfect), but rather because I'm dubious modern WDI will be able to offer a replacement of equal quality (the new CBMJ is very polished but appears to lack the humor and charm of the original).

But I find it incredibly difficult to believe that concerns about inclusion were not at the heart of the Frontierland/Cars decision. I disagree with characterizing this as a conspiracy theory. Even Len Testa (not a conspiracy theorist, as far as I'm aware) discussed forthcoming changes to Frontierland in this exact context in last week's Disney Dish ep.

Again, not saying it's a bad thing to update attractions/lands due to concerns about inclusion, which are legitimate in the context of theme parks that date back to 1955. Not saying "DEI has gone too far!!!" I don't know if anyone said TWDC hates America. But I do think Disney is lazy and doesn't want to engage with the complexity of American history in their parks because it's too difficult for them. In fact, there seems to be a squeamishness within WDI to anything even remotely challenging, and for several years now it has repeatedly resulted in short-sighted knee-jerk decisions (see also: Jessica Rabbit and her trench coat in Car Toon Spin). The DEI committee is relevant to the discussion to the extent that they (supposedly) flag the attractions with problematic elements; from there, WDI puts forward its bone-headed solutions. This is why they are systematically replacing the Americana stuff. It's just easier to shrug and bulldoze and build a lowest-common-denominator Cars attraction.

 

[PiratesMansion]

You would think that if Magic Kingdom wanted to make more money, they could start by opening their closed shops first.

 

[mickEblu]

Who cares about the name if it means nothing? I want the Old West.

Disney hates Americana. They didn't replace "To Honor America" in MSEP for profit, it was an ideological statement, just like the systematic removal of the Old West from Frontierland.

If the loss of Rivers of America was the only change to Frontierland, then I could believe this, but given the removal of Splash, the Shooting Gallery, and the classic CBJ, I don't see how anyone can deny that Disney is deliberately trying to distance Frontierland from the Old West.

They don’t hate Americana. It’s just that they happen to find every single thing in Frontierland celebrating or showcasing Americana “problematic.” Lol

The ROA though. I mean it’s a river. What did rivers do to anyone?

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

The DEI committee is relevant to the discussion to the extent that they (supposedly) flag the attractions with problematic elements; from there, WDI puts forward its bone-headed solutions. This is why they are systematically replacing the Americana stuff. It's just easier to shrug and bulldoze and build a lowest-common-denominator Cars attraction.

I could see it being a factor, nowhere near what that tweet inferred though.

DEI was likely 99% of why Splash was changed, probably 50% of why the shooting gallery disappeared (the other 50% being DVC $), but I just don’t see it with ROA, maybe 10% because of Tom Sawyer with the other 90% being it was simply the cheapest and easiest way to make space for new revenue generating lands.

 

[sponono88]

The funny thing about this is that they had the concept art ready to show off but were too afraid to display it during the D23 presentation. They knew it wouldn't go over well so they just dumped it into a parks blog post. They know it's a bad move but the Cars merch sales will more than make up for the temporary backlash they're receiving.

 

[drizgirl]

I was planning on going to WDW for the first time in 2026. Not sure how I feel about it now and definitely don’t want to go with the whole west side of the park being a Construction Zone with the whole river behind walls.

Will probably be a massive pile of dirt in 2026.

 

[Too Many Hats]

I think the influence of inclusion concerns is way overblown and the Frontierland name is staying. Yes, it plays a part, as do many far more influential things. I’m skeptical of any take that appeals to anger, especially coming from someone whose success is measured by engagement. This awful ”Disney hates Americana” tweet is one such garbage take. Disney does not hate Americana, Disney is Americana. If Americana drove revenue in beverage sales or lightning lanes, then it would replace every last square foot of the Magic Kingdom.

"Disney hates Americana" is silly in the sense that, like.. how can a corporation hate a concept?

But it's valid (in a flippant sense) in the same way it'd be valid to say "Disney hates sex," "Disney hates the macabre," "Disney hates anything violent."

It's why WDI removed the skulls on sticks in Adventureland, it's why they put a trench coat on Jessica Rabbit, it's why they're removing the hanging man from Haunted Mansion, it's why one day they'll remove the Hell finale from Mr. Toad. This stuff is just too challenging for Disney and so it needs to go.

 

[Too Many Hats]

BTW I actually think they should re-name Frontierland now. The name doesn't make sense anymore. Even Tokyo Disneyland's "Westernland" might work better.

 

[Too Many Hats]

I could see it being a factor, nowhere near what that tweet inferred though.

DEI was likely 99% of why Splash was changed, probably 50% of why the shooting gallery disappeared (the other 50% being DVC $), but I just don’t see it with ROA, maybe 10% because of Tom Sawyer with the other 90% being it was simply the cheapest and easiest way to make space for new revenue generating lands.

Removing the river/island just seems like such a wild decision. Is it really the cheapest and easiest solution? Seems to me like a messy project to avoid at all costs, unless of course they've been eyeing Frontierland as a whole for a while. And with the closures of Splash, CBJ, & the Shooting Gallery, seems way more likely that they'd just like to do away with the 1800s vibe altogether.

 

[PiratesMansion]

I agree with you regarding the incompetence of modern Disney. And that's primarily why I've opposed so many recent changes in the parks; not necessarily because the originals were so flawless (for example, CBJ was wonderful but by no means perfect), but rather because I'm dubious modern WDI will be able to offer a replacement of equal quality (the new CBMJ is very polished but appears to lack the humor and charm of the original).

Valid.

But I find it incredibly difficult to believe that concerns about inclusion were not at the heart of the Frontierland/Cars decision. I disagree with characterizing this as a conspiracy theory. Even Len Testa (not a conspiracy theorist, as far as I'm aware) discussed forthcoming changes to Frontierland in this exact context in last week's Disney Dish ep.

I just don't understand this community's take on Jim Hill. Is he someone who just makes stuff up, or is he a legitimate source? Seems to change every week. Which episode (and relevant soundbite) would this have appeared in?

Again, not saying it's a bad thing to update attractions/lands due to concerns about inclusion, which are legitimate in the context of theme parks that date back to 1955. Not saying "DEI has gone too far!!!" I don't know if anyone said TWDC hates America. But I do think Disney is lazy and doesn't want to engage with the complexity of American history in their parks because it's too difficult for them. In fact, there seems to be a squeamishness within WDI to anything even remotely challenging, and for several years now it has repeatedly resulted in short-sighted knee-jerk decisions (see also: Jessica Rabbit and her trench coat in Car Toon Spin). The DEI committee is relevant to the discussion to the extent that they (supposedly) flag the attractions with problematic elements; from there, WDI puts forward its bone-headed solutions. This is why they are systematically replacing the Americana stuff. It's just easier to shrug and bulldoze and build a lowest-common-denominator Cars attraction.

But this is getting boiled down to "the DEI committee not only has unlimited power/influence, but also has decided America is problematic and is unilaterally imposing their will on the parks", and that just doesn't make sense to me with the information we have.

Disney was bulldozing historic attractions/area of the parks and replacing them with IP long before the DEI was a thing. There were quite a few theme parks built in the 60s and 70s that also had a ROA inspired area and riverboat or island reached only by raft when they opened (among them, off the top of my head, Six Flags over Texas, Carowinds, etc); needless to say, those rides don't exist anymore and have largely been gone for decades. They weren't removed because of PC concerns, they were removed because the land was seen as expendable to build something they valued more (in their case, it was roller coasters). I think in this case the simplest, most direct answer is the most logical one.

"Disney hates Americana" is silly in the sense that, like.. how can a corporation hate a concept?

But it's valid (in a flippant sense) in the same way it'd be valid to say "Disney hates sex," "Disney hates the macabre," "Disney hates anything violent."

It's why WDI removed the skulls on sticks in Adventureland, it's why they -shamed Jessica Rabbit, it's why they're removing the hanging man from Haunted Mansion, it's why one day they'll remove the Hell finale from Mr. Toad. This stuff is just too challenging for Disney and so it needs to go.

They removed the skulls on sticks in Adventureland because who in Adventureland would people have assumed put those skulls there, and what would it have said about those people? Would that have held up to a 2020s audience? To me, that's an understandable change no different from the changes they made to Jungle Cruise. Could it have been better, sure, but I get why they made the changes they did.

And we don't yet know that the hanging man is gone from Mansion or that there are any plans to remove Hell from Toad. You are assuming the worst possible reading of the situation and what it says about what's coming when in my view a much simpler, more direct explanation makes more sense: Cars will make money and better use what to them is worthless space.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Y’all crack me up.

 

[mickEblu]

Will probably a massive pile of dirt in 2026.

That sucks. With that said, I guess of the 4 parks, if any of them had to be in a state of massive construction MK would be the lesser of all evils for a Disneyland AP like me.

 

[Too Many Hats]

But this is getting boiled down to "the DEI committee not only has unlimited power/influence, but also has decided America is problematic and is unilaterally imposing their will on the parks", and that just doesn't make sense to me with the information we have.

That's not what I wrote at all.

 

[wtyy21]

As much as i knowledged about Frontierland/Cars decision, i rather want to see Big Thunder Mountain Railroad gotten rid altogether, and replacing it with its equivalent ride that was supposed to built, namely Western River Expedition and Fire Mountain. They also should be a opportunity to have Matterhorn appeared at the Magic Kingdom's Frontierland, as well as Pinocchio's Daring Journey cloned from Disneyland put there.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

That sucks. With that said, I guess of the 4 parks, if any of them had to be in a state of massive construction MK would be the lesser of all evils for a Disneyland AP like me.

If you’re a DL regular you’ll probably find HS the least special, 90% of the rides in HS are in either DL or DCA. The only must do’s for us (as DL regulars) at HS are Slinky, RRC, and the Indy show, we do the rest but they’re all very similar (or carbon copies) to something we do regularly at DL.

 

[mickEblu]

If you’re a DL regular you’ll probably find HS the least special, 90% of the rides in HS are in either DL or DCA. The only must do’s for us (as DL regulars) at HS are Slinky, RRC, and the Indy show, we do the rest but they’re all very similar (or carbon copies) to something we do regularly at DL.

I’m terme of attractions for sure. I meant more in terms of atmosphere. I know what the ROA looks like.

@Vegas Disney Fan I agree on HS in terms of attractions though. It’s nice knowing that if I’m ever in a crunch for time I can completely skip GE, Star Tours, MMRR and TSMM. The only Must Do’s for us there would be TOT, RnRc, Slinky and Sci Fi Dine In. Eventually the Monster Inc coaster too when that opens.