Magic Kingdom to lose ROA, Riverboat, and TSI for Cars Land

Disney Irish

Premium Member
What do you mean that it "should never have been" used for literary/history lessons? Is it a bad thing that 9 year-old me found World of Motion, The Living Seas, and Spaceship Earth intellectually stimulating? That the Mark Twain references in Magic Kingdom led me to read A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court? Objectively, WDI used to strive to both entertain and educate, and many guests were indeed affected by this.
I'm happy that you found that to be stimulating. But to me I don't go to a Disney Theme Park to learn, and never did when I was a kid going in the 70s/80s either. And I don't expect that many kids now a days do either. Its a different era, and attention spans are even shorter than they were when you were a kid.
 

haveyoumetmark

Well-Known Member
You're worn out because, for a few hours, some people online are expressing disappointment that a 53 year-old theme park land (at the most famous theme park in the world) is going away?
Not necessarily…. expressing disappointment is one thing. I’m talking about the histrionics, then extrapolate that to every single decision the company makes (even seemingly inconsequential ones, and ones that are hypothetical, have yet to happen, and some that will never happen), layer in the exhausting political environment we’re subject to, and of course can’t forget a sprinkle of the “stories matter” boogeyman… and yes, it’s tiresome.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
First off, I'm glad to see that so many people recognize this as a misguided decision that completely misunderstands what DIsney theme parks were designed to be, and why they were and are so meaningful to people. Things need not be insanely popular to provide value and balance to a theme park.

That said, how does the quote go? 'Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence'. This is not being done because TWDC hates America or US history or education or any of the similar things being claimed here by a few. This is being done because the modern rulers and shakers of Disney do not understand the parks, their function, their history, or what people value, not because they feel, to paraphrase the ideas of some (or at least, the way I am interpreting their ideas), that America is now an offensive, off-limits topic that must be completely expunged from the parks.

No, this is being done because the current leadership sees anything that is not or cannot be directly tied to a Disney IP as out of place in their visions of the parks. If Disney as a company really hated America that much, it would close its parks, or at the very least it wouldn't be actively making efforts to further enshrine an attraction that serves no purpose but to honor a US president, and give it new life by creating the possibility of a dual show featuring another iconic American. This dismissal of the river and its components also fits with something I expressed in the original CBJ changeover thread that represents the uniquely toxic attitude towards attractions at play, particularly in Florida: because almost everything at WDW has Lightning Lane, anything that doesn't becomes seen and treated as little more than a holding area, a glorified lobby. This is that reality playing out. Incompetence, not malice.

It really is sad Walt Disney World in particular does not have anyone in a position of power who seems to understand the parks. The fact that Disneyland kept its river and everything else does speak to there being people around who get the park and value what makes it work. Disneyland has champions; Walt Disney World has none.

Mourn for the fact that the property with the 'blessing of size' is ironically and continually the least creative entity of all and the worst user of space, that this change could very easily be prevented with only *a little* effort, a little consideration, by *one* person valuing the park's history and what makes castle parks tick.

It's genuinely sad and unfortunate, and we should all be mourning the last US old-school river route, and the largest, grandest, only two-island iteration of TSI that ever existed. But we need not throw out the baby with the bathwater by assuming there's some conspiracy at play here. Disney is stupid, and that's really all there is to it with this decision.
 
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Rich T

Well-Known Member
kids these days aren't impressed by that stuff anymore.
I can state that, in my family, the kids are still impressed by the riverboat and ROA. Not Velocicoaster/Hagrid’s impressed, but they appreciate the beauty and the sight of a working steam watercraft. And they love TSI.

If the parks are truly now only focused on appealing to children and not multiple generations sharing a day together, then that’s another big reason for me to not spend any more money at Disney parks. I’ll continue to vote with my wallet, for what it’s worth.

I’ll always be grateful for the fun Walt Disney and his amazing crew brought into the lives of my family and myself. Bob Iger’s contributions… not so much.
 

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
Bruce Vaughn is garbage to sign off on that.
He’s “sh**” for signing off on this… to quote himself :)
What I don't understand is why this attraction needs to be so large. If Rivers of America truly must go, it ought to house more than just two new attractions.
Yes! If we were getting lots of stuff for this - I could at least see a bright side but a cars off-road ride?
 

Ne'er-Do-Well Cad

Well-Known Member
Not necessarily…. expressing disappointment is one thing. I’m talking about the histrionics, then extrapolate that to every single decision the company makes (even seemingly inconsequential ones, and ones that are hypothetical, have yet to happen, and some that will never happen), layer in the exhausting political environment we’re subject to, and of course can’t forget a sprinkle of the “stories matter” boogeyman… and yes, it’s tiresome.

I had to google Stories Matter. It's definitely exhausting, I get it, but there also seems to be widespread consensus that concerns about inclusion are at the root of many recent changes to the parks, especially the forthcoming changes to Frontierland (I heard it framed explicitly in this way on the Disney Dish podcast).

The thing is, I can agree that Frontierland is problematic in 2024 and should be re-contextualized, probably even re-named. I just find it absolutely bewildering and short-sighted that filling in the river and building a gigantic Cars attraction is the solution.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I had to google Stories Matter. It's definitely exhausting, I get it, but there also seems to be widespread consensus that concerns about inclusion are at the root of many recent changes to the parks, especially the forthcoming changes to Frontierland (I heard it framed explicitly in this way on the Disney Dish podcast).
Is there really widespread consensus, or is it the same five-ten people repeating this idea ad nauseum, thus making it seem legitimate and like something many genuinely believe simply because we are exposed to it frequently? Any idea can seem widespread or valid if we hear it enough, and I think that's what's happening here.

I really think it's less that Disney assumes that the park as built isn't inclusive and more that they simply don't value attractions that don't shove IP down guest's throats anymore, especially if they're not self-evidently popular on their own merits. Their criteria for what fits the park and what is a successful part of it has changed, in large part because of their own greed and misunderstanding of what has always made the parks work. Stupidity, not malice.
 

GigglesMcSnort

Active Member
Is there really widespread consensus, or is it the same five-ten people repeating this idea ad nauseum, thus making it seem legitimate and like something many genuinely believe simply because we are exposed to it frequently? Any idea can seem widespread or valid if we hear it enough, and I think that's what's happening here.

I really think it's less that Disney assumes that the park as built isn't inclusive and more that they simply don't value attractions that don't shove IP down guest's throats anymore, especially if they're not self-evidently popular on their own merits. Their criteria for what fits the park and what is a successful part of it has changed, in large part because of their own greed and misunderstanding of what has always made the parks work. Stupidity, not malice.
People here like to think otherwise, but there is absolutely zero chance that Disney is taking any of these decisions without them being informed by extensive market research. They didn't get to be as big as they are by taking unjustified risks.

They know perfectly well what they're doing.
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
I guarantee the new Cars Ride/Land will be more popular than Mark Twain’s boat and Tom Sawyer island.

Even a little kid would be way more into a car ride than a relaxing river boat.

There’s a huge underutilized plot of land under that castle too, I guarantee a coaster would be more poplar than a castle they only use a few minutes a day for projections.

Where does it end?

There’s amusement parks all over the world that have vastly superior ride lineups to the Disney parks, but they aren’t Disney, it’s the theming and environment that make Disney special, not simply how popular the rides are.
 
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Phroobar

Well-Known Member
There’s a huge underutilized plot of land under that castle too, I guarantee a coaster would be more poplar than a castle they only use a few minutes a day for projections.

Where does it end?

There’s amusement parks all over the world that have vastly superior ride lineups than the Disney parks, but they aren’t Disney, it’s the theming and environment that make Disney special, not simply how popular the rides are.
I thought they already did that.

iu
 

Vegas Disney Fan

Well-Known Member
Disneyland Paris has a dragon underneath their castle. It's quite popular.
I’ve seen it and totally agree, it’s not as popular as a rollercoaster would be though so they may as well rip it out. Being a fun place to explore and providing a beautiful atmosphere is no longer needed at theme parks.

I thought they already did that.

iu

Much better utilization of space! Now we’re cooking with gas.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
People here like to think otherwise, but there is absolutely zero chance that Disney is taking any of these decisions without them being informed by extensive market research. They didn't get to be as big as they are by taking unjustified risks.

They know perfectly well what they're doing.
The fact that Disney has plenty of survey data at its disposal telling them that whoever they surveyed thinks this is good doesn't necessarily mean anything. Ask any boy under a certain age if they want a Cars ride, they're gonna say yes. They're not going to phrase it like "Would you be ok with losing a significant area of the park and three attractions original to Walt Disney World?" They're gonna phrase it to get the answer they want.

And frankly, smaller attractions are almost never going to be valued on surveys unless it's something like Peter Pan's Flight. I doubt huge numbers of people have said any of those attractions are among their favorite in the park, let alone resort. But that's not the same as saying they have no value or that most people would welcome their extinction. Disney parks were built to appeal to all ages, and built to have a variety of attractions with a balanced number of minor and major attractions. This decision goes against both of those principles.
 

haveyoumetmark

Well-Known Member
I had to google Stories Matter. It's definitely exhausting, I get it, but there also seems to be widespread consensus that concerns about inclusion are at the root of many recent changes to the parks, especially the forthcoming changes to Frontierland (I heard it framed explicitly in this way on the Disney Dish podcast).

The thing is, I can agree that Frontierland is problematic in 2024 and should be re-contextualized, probably even re-named. I just find it absolutely bewildering and short-sighted that filling in the river and building a gigantic Cars attraction is the solution.
I think the influence of inclusion concerns is way overblown and the Frontierland name is staying. Yes, it plays a part, as do many far more influential things. I’m skeptical of any take that appeals to anger, especially coming from someone whose success is measured by engagement. This awful ”Disney hates Americana” tweet is one such garbage take. Disney does not hate Americana, Disney is Americana. If Americana drove revenue in beverage sales or lightning lanes, then it would replace every last square foot of the Magic Kingdom.
 

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