Magic Kingdom to lose ROA, Riverboat, and TSI for Cars Land

[Rich T]

Multiple generations are guaranteed to enjoy this new attraction.

I meant that comment more as a criticism of eradicating one of the signature non-thrill adult-oriented features (the beauty and calm of the riverboat excursion) in favor of more cartoons.

I’d go on, but Hagrid’s MCMA is my favorite ride on Earth, so in honor of your profile icon, I won’t froth about the situation further… Just now.

 

[Misted Compass]

You know….. if Disney will kill the riverboat…. They could easily use this to end the railroad. They can make up some excuse about how the operation was “impossible” for the good of the park - and spin it like the riverboat.

Park a train at each station for photo ops and you end another “old fashioned” and boring ride that only crazy fans care about.

Killing the railroad for a Cars ride would probably be the most "Americana" thing modern Disney is willing to do.

 

[bwr827]

Here's an interesting take by UCF Hospitality professor Bill Zanetti....

It’s hard to see from the art, but there are new ponds, streams, and waterfalls that are being created, so it’s not a total loss of water. There will actually be more kinetic energy with this than there currently is in the area. But as for why…

Remember that the Rivers of America at WDW are connected by a lock to the Seven Seas Lagoon. Major challenges exist to this river system and drainage in the area that need to be accounted for. The foundation of the river isn’t in great shape, nor is it filtered water. The nature of this river surrounding the island system also prevents construction on the islands. To retain any of this river as is would be impossible, as the connection would need to remain near Thunder Mountain to the lock.

One of the key drivers of this re-do was requested by the park management itself… to eliminate dead ends. That can’t be accomplished while retaining the navigable river system. So you have an aging river basin in dire need of resurfacing, logistical nightmares to improve the islands, and dead end pathways on two sides. Plus access must be created to get to the other side of the river systems for any expansion.

I can tell you that countless rides were taken on the riverboat by key people involved in this decision and it was not taken lightly. They know they have to blow everyone out of the water with what gets built on the site. (Pun intended) It still makes sense.

Cars being the IP was selected for WDI by others. Cars makes ridiculous financial and demographic sense. It sells merchandise like no other franchise, it will eventually allow for the removal of the Tomorrowland Speedway on the other side of the park to free up more valuable real estate in the park, it appeals to the Floridian demographic, and it appeals to families (not single millennials, if they were going for that demographic they would have themed the entire area to A Goofy Movie). Cars also is a friendly story that will provide the friendly alternative to the scary Villains land beyond.

How to fit Cars into the region is actually very real, as JL did concepts for the original films going through places like Yellowstone, but were never realized (though the adjacent franchise, Planes Fire & Rescue does take place in a Yellowstone-like national park). There is a lot more to this concept and I think you’ll see some more Cars related IP coming around the bend that will even cement how it makes logical sense being there. This concept is adjacent to National Parks (not inside one) and it is very pretty. I do have doubts about the reliability of it being outdoors in Florida, but that’s besides the point here.

The aesthetics of the land are based on the Grizzly Peak Recreation Area in DCA. (Piston Peak instead of Grizzly Peak) Obviously there are some aesthetic differences and it’s a Cars ride instead of a rapids ride, but that’s a product of the MK having Tiana’s so close and the IP requirement set above.

In the end, there was no way to save the existing river system. The new lands have major elevation changes that can’t be accomplished without altering the river, and the reality is that they have an obligation to push for more capacity in the park, even if it means at the cost of something so big. It will be tough to see for the next 5-10 years, but I’ve been assured it will all be worth it, and the new water features will be much cleaner and feel a lot more fun.

I hope that explains a lot of the decision making that went into this. Happy to answer a few other questions if you still have them (on twitter).

This seems very sensible.

 

[Figments Friend]

First off, I'm glad to see that so many people recognize this as a misguided decision that completely misunderstands what DIsney theme parks were designed to be, and why they were and are so meaningful to people. Things need not be insanely popular to provide value and balance to a theme park.

That said, how does the quote go? 'Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence'. This is not being done because TWDC hates America or US history or education or any of the similar things being claimed here by a few. This is being done because the modern rulers and shakers of Disney do not understand the parks, their function, their history, or what people value, not because they feel, to paraphrase the ideas of some (or at least, the way I am interpreting their ideas), that America is now an offensive, off-limits topic that must be completely expunged from the parks.

No, this is being done because the current leadership sees anything that is not or cannot be directly tied to a Disney IP as out of place in their visions of the parks. If Disney as a company really hated America that much, it would close its parks, or at the very least it wouldn't be actively making efforts to further enshrine an attraction that serves no purpose but to honor a US president, and give it new life by creating the possibility of a dual show featuring another iconic American. This dismissal of the river and its components also fits with something I expressed in the original CBJ changeover thread that represents the uniquely toxic attitude towards attractions at play, particularly in Florida: because almost everything at WDW has Lightning Lane, anything that doesn't becomes seen and treated as little more than a holding area, a glorified lobby. This is that reality playing out. Incompetence, not malice.

It really is sad Walt Disney World in particular does not have anyone in a position of power who seems to understand the parks. The fact that Disneyland kept its river and everything else does speak to there being people around who get the park and value what makes it work. Disneyland has champions; Walt Disney World has none.

Mourn for the fact that the property with the 'blessing of size' is ironically and continually the least creative entity of all and the worst user of space, that this change could very easily be prevented with only *a little* effort, a little consideration, by *one* person valuing the park's history and what makes castle parks tick.

It's genuinely sad and unfortunate, and we should all be mourning the last US old-school river route, and the largest, grandest, only two-island iteration of TSI that ever existed. But we need not throw out the baby with the bathwater by assuming there's some conspiracy at play here. Disney is stupid, and that's really all there is to it with this decision.

This.

Read it again, folks.

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[Figments Friend]

You know, if they really need to "recontextualize" Frontierland, there's already a solution thought up for it.
View attachment 809045

Yes, please.
But ONLY if they ‘allow’ my boy Tony to be a part of the project.



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[Phroobar]

I wish they would give us a good western town like Knotts has. The red ground and buildings on one side (with modern shops inside) really don't do anything for me. There is no immersion without the river on the other side.

 

[Steamboat71]

Insiders, do any of you know if Disney has any plans for the riverboat other than scrapping it?

 

[TP2000]

Go watch Lasseter talk about the inspiration for Cars. It’s pure Americana.

I'm sorry, who? If you are talking about ---- -------, that person is no longer acknowledged. He was cancelled. Airbrushed from all photographs. Memory holed. He is an Officially Bad Person who may not be spoken of, except in the presence of an HR rep.

Kind of like Mark Twain, and his body of American literature and art.

 

[TP2000]

You know how we know that Josh D'Amaro and Bruce Vaughn and all the other losers know this was a bad decision?...

They didn't admit to it in front of 12,000 fans at D23 Expo. Instead, they fudged the details and buried the plot and told a few white lies. Because they know in their heart of hearts that this is a dumb and cheap way to run a theme park.

Instead of Josh D'Amaro being honest and saying...

"We'll say goodbye to the Rivers of America and much of Frontierland in order to tell the immersive story of Cars!"

He actually said (exact transcript from D23 Expo Horizons presentation)...

"I'm happy to announce we're inviting Mater and Lightning McQueen to a re-imagined section of Frontierland!"

And then Mr. D'Amaro said nothing about some sudden problem with maintaining a 53 year old body of water in water-logged central Florida. Nor did he even mention the following words... "Rivers Of America" or "Riverboat" or "Tom Sawyer Island".

D'Amaro just forged ahead, and made it sound like this was an addition to the existing park, instead of an erasure of the existing park. It wasn't until hours later when fans started realizing what was happening. And what all this meant.

That proves that even Josh D'Amaro, with his winning smile and runner's physique and Cool Dad wardrobe, knows that he is not making the correct decision about Magic Kingdom's future.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

This seems very sensible.

The sensible part is the issue with dead ends - beyond big thunder would cause another dead end until Villains is complete.

That’s the dots that I asked someone to connect from the very start but nobody would say it. Haha.

What is not sensible is completely filling in the rivers and kicking the boat to the curb…. Err dock.

Creating a small loop around the one island would fix all of those issues. Now put in the Coco boat ride facing the new back of the island and it can bridge Frontierland - Mansion and Villians. THAT is storytelling.

 

[eddie104]

How is this even 18 pages on a DISNEYLAND thread behooves me.

This does not need a separate discussion over here and should be merged with original on the WDW side of things.

 

[TP2000]

How is this even 18 pages on a DISNEYLAND thread behooves me.

This does not need a separate discussion over here and should be merged with original on the WDW side of things.

So you're mad that people in an online community are having a discussion on a discussion forum?

 

[DLR92]

This thread echos my sediments of why I LOATHE Avatar coming into DCA.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

This thread echos my sediments of why I LOATHE Avatar coming into DCA.

I agree, best not take the parks as we know them for granite.

 

[truecoat]

So here are some waterways near the MK.

The one in yellow I assume goes to Bay Lake and has a dam at the purple mark.

The green is ROA and the pathway to the 7 Seas Lagoon. There are 2 locks (purple) to control water levels. I'm not sure if the yellow and green connect somehow. It seems that would be a good way to control the level of ROA with the dams on one side and locks on the other.

I can see why they would want to move on from this. A rotating railroad bridge and a draw bridge must also be maintained on top of this water management.

 

[DLR92]

Also I don’t believe waterways system is deteriorating at WDW.

 

[TP2000]

So here are some waterways near the MK.

The one in yellow I assume goes to Bay Lake and has a dam at the purple mark.

The green is ROA and the pathway to the 7 Seas Lagoon. There are 2 locks (purple) to control water levels. I'm not sure if the yellow and green connect somehow. It seems that would be a good way to control the level of ROA with the dams on one side and locks on the other.

I can see why they would want to move on from this. A rotating railroad bridge and a draw bridge must also be maintained on top of this water management.


View attachment 809542

Fascinating info! And yet they've still got a very inter-connected system left which I outlined in blue, below. That's the Hub moat system that is directly connected and branches off into the Adventureland waterway system that includes the Treehouse and the Jungle Cruise, as well as the backstage boat maintenance facility for Jungle launches and whatever is left of the old Swan Boat system.

Much like Disneyland with its interconnected waterways, from the Motorboat Cruise all the way to the Rivers of America, I would have to assume that Magic Kingdom's waterways are interconnected as well.

When TDO paves over their Rivers of America system and cuts it off from the weir gates and lock that heads out towards Seven Seas Lagoon, that still doesn't eliminate their need to manage a large interconnected water system.

Unless, of course, the Jungle Cruise gets paved over for an Inside Out E Ticket and the Hub's moat is drained and turned into a tile mosaic with your favorite IP artfully woven into the tiles. Stay tuned for D23 Expo 2026 for more details!

 

[TP2000]

Cocktail Napkin math, just before happy hour when the napkins and the mind are still crisp...

Hourly Capacity from Google:

Disneyland Rivers of America Hourly Capacity = 2,700 riders per hour
Mark Twain Riverboat = 750 riders per hour (250 per trip, three trips per hour)
Columbia Sailing Ship = 600 riders per hour (200 per trip, three trips per hour)
Canoes = 600 riders per hour (roughly 100 riders per canoe per hour, Disneyland operates 6 canoes on busy days)
Rafts to TSI = 750 riders per hour (roughly 250 riders per raft per hour, and Disneyland can operate 3 rafts on busy days)

Magic Kingdom Rivers of America Hourly Capacity if TDO Was Smart = 2,600 Riders Per Hour
Riverboat I and II = 1500 riders per hour, (250 per trip per boat, six trips per hour operating both boats)
Mike Fink Keelboats = 350 riders per hour (30 riders per trip, twelve trips per hour with three boats operating)
Rafts to TSI = 750 riders per hour (roughly 250 riders per raft per hour, and WDW used to operate up to 3 rafts on busy days)

Cars Land East In 2028 = 2,000 Riders Per Hour
Radiator Springs Racers = 1500 riders per hour
Average C Ticket Spinner = 500 riders per hour?

So instead of rebuilding all the lost ride capacity at WDW's Rivers of America, and plussing up the showmanship along the river that operating attractions would interact with, to get back to 2,500ish riders per hour and then also building a Cars Land East with three new rides beyong Big Thunder Mountain to add in an additional 2,500 riders per hour from Cars Land East....

TDO is bulldozing the Rivers of America, giving up completely on that existing infrastructure and potential for 2,500 riders per hour, and replacing it with two new rides that will get less riders per hour than the Rivers of America did in the 1970's to 1990's.

And we're supposed to pretend that Josh D'Amaro and the existing WDI and TDO executives aren't idiots? These current park execs are not showmen, and they are bad at hospitality for their paying guests. Plain and simple.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

If they built a 2nd riverboat for MK they could theme it to Princess and the Frog and have a meet and greet on it for $$$. Of course Disneyland does this for free but MK could charge and give them a cupcake. Heck make one floor a bar and advertise the Disney themed booze cruise if they simply must make it a profit center.

 

[mlayton144]

Cocktail Napkin math, just before happy hour when the napkins and the mind are still crisp...

Hourly Capacity from Google:

Disneyland Rivers of America Hourly Capacity = 2,700 riders per hour
Mark Twain Riverboat = 750 riders per hour (250 per trip, three trips per hour)
Columbia Sailing Ship = 600 riders per hour (200 per trip, three trips per hour)
Canoes = 600 riders per hour (roughly 100 riders per canoe per hour, Disneyland operates 6 canoes on busy days)
Rafts to TSI = 750 riders per hour (roughly 250 riders per raft per hour, and Disneyland can operate 3 rafts on busy days)

Magic Kingdom Rivers of America Hourly Capacity if TDO Was Smart = 2,600 Riders Per Hour
Riverboat I and II = 1500 riders per hour, (250 per trip per boat, six trips per hour operating both boats)
Mike Fink Keelboats = 350 riders per hour (30 riders per trip, twelve trips per hour with three boats operating)
Rafts to TSI = 750 riders per hour (roughly 250 riders per raft per hour, and WDW used to operate up to 3 rafts on busy days)

Cars Land East In 2028 = 2,000 Riders Per Hour
Radiator Springs Racers = 1500 riders per hour
Average C Ticket Spinner = 500 riders per hour?

So instead of rebuilding all the lost ride capacity at WDW's Rivers of America, and plussing up the showmanship along the river that operating attractions would interact with, to get back to 2,500ish riders per hour and then also building a Cars Land East with three new rides beyong Big Thunder Mountain to add in an additional 2,500 riders per hour from Cars Land East....

TDO is bulldozing the Rivers of America, giving up completely on that existing infrastructure and potential for 2,500 riders per hour, and replacing it with two new rides that will get less riders per hour than the Rivers of America did in the 1970's to 1990's.

And we're supposed to pretend that Josh D'Amaro and the existing WDI and TDO executives aren't idiots? These current park execs are not showmen, and they are bad at hospitality for their paying guests. Plain and simple.

Wouldn’t this capacity only matter if they were seeing people actually fill the capacity?