Magic Kingdom to lose ROA, Riverboat, and TSI for Cars Land

[Too Many Hats]

But that's the thing, this isn't just an isolated body of water in a theme park, the way it is at any other Disney theme park. This is one component of a massive, interconnected system within all of Walt Disney World. I have my own questions about what the loss of the river would mean for that system, but it is true that Seven Seas Lagoon and ROA are connected and play a role into the resort's larger system of waterways, and that would inherently introduce complications that none of the other rivers would have to deal with.

Feels like a ridiculously convenient excuse. It was fine for 50 years; suddenly it’s problematic? And would it really be impossible to disconnect from the larger system and establish the river as an independent entity?

Maybe somebody at WDI could weigh in on this obviously controversial matter. Until then, I’m not going to give WDI the benefit of the doubt based on some Disney apologist on Twitter.

 

[Phroobar]

So there won't be anymore alligators eating children in Frontierland.

 

[Too Many Hats]

Obviously apples and oranges. But it’s understandable to be caught up in emotion of this loss to the degree that this comparison makes sense. We’re only human.

It’s a valid comparison. Theme parks need bodies of water.

I guess it’s also “only human” to condescend to strangers on the internet regarding throwaway jokes they made days earlier. Enjoy your asinine Cars ride.

 

[Too Many Hats]

So there won't be anymore alligators eating children in Frontierland.

Kids today have no appreciation for risk-taking.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

You couldn't just disconnect the Rivers from it and make it its own system just because; you would need to do quite a bit of re-engineering within the rest of the waterways as well to compensate for the fact that the river was in the system and now isn't.

They are going to have to do that anyway? The river is going away.

 

[bwr827]

It’s a valid comparison. Theme parks need bodies of water.

I guess it’s also “only human” to condescend to strangers on the internet regarding throwaway jokes they made days earlier. Enjoy your asinine Cars ride.

Didn’t realize it was a throwaway joke - I was taking you seriously

 

[TP2000]

Feels like a ridiculously convenient excuse. It was fine for 50 years; suddenly it’s problematic? And would it really be impossible to disconnect from the larger system and establish the river as an independent entity?

Exactly.

That info from the UCF (Go Knights!) professor sounded like a big, fancy excuse for doing this the cheap and dumb way, instead of the costlier and smarter way. I wonder how much funding TDO donates to his department at UCF?

Disneyland already proved you can shorten the Rivers of America, plus it up mightily in the process, and operate it fully with four different family attractions that get a combined hourly capacity of about 2,500 riders per hour. While that creative plus-up also preps the park for decades of future success from an operational and industrial engineering perspective.

Here's how they could add a real Cars Land, with three new rides instead of two, plus a large new Villains land with at least a half dozen new rides as the dark side of Fantasyland. The yellow arrows are large-scale walkways to facilitate movement around the northern flanks of the Magic Kingdom, just like the reworked River and Star Wars Land did for Disneyland five years ago...

But instead, Josh D'Amaro and Bruce Vaughn and the TDO President Du Jour are doing it the cheaper and dumber way, removing a River complex that has needed plussing and restored 1971 ride capacity for decades, in favor of two new Cars rides that combined will probably not equal the 2,500 riders per hour that Disneyland's four River attractions get on busy days.

Maybe somebody at WDI could weigh in on this obviously controversial matter. Until then, I’m not going to give WDI the benefit of the doubt based on some Disney apologist on Twitter.

As you shouldn't. As none of us should after this most recent D23 Expo.

The people now running the Parks are idiots, as this current situation now proves starkly. They are doing things cheap and easy, and leaving their parks in the same woefully under-invested and capacity constrained situation they've been in for 20 years.

A puffed up aplogist Tweet from an Orlando sycophant doesn't help, it just makes them all look even smarmier and dumber.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

See, this is what I don't understand (and for the record, this is not just directed at you specifically but to anyone who has made variations on this statement). There are multiple people who say that WDW's river isn't that good and I genuinely want to understand why people feel that way. I already mentioned the greater number of actual moving figures (certainly pre-DL rivers redo, but DL still has stagnant props and animals where I believe WDW does not) and the longer length, things that people allegedly really miss from the DL river.

I get that there aren't as many watercraft on the river, but otherwise, people who think the DL river is so dramatically superior and WDW's is inferior: why? Explain. And explainers, don't just say variations on "it's different from Disneyland's and is therefore wrong." Of course it's different from DL's, it was designed to be. Why are people so down on the WDW river?

For me it’s a combination of factors but probably:
- nostalgia - I only went to WDW once as a 13 year old, so I’m biased.
- “things to do” - views from hungry bear views, canoes, two river unique river vessels, train that actually interacts as an element of the river, Fantasmic. While the vegetation is nice it doesn’t scream “Wild West frontier” and the WDWRR during the river portion feels like a train ride through any local zoo or any regional theme park. Keel boats and canoes never were there and hadn’t been.
- The placement of the major e-tickets at DL is preferred. Having NoS and Pirates (with the Columbia) on the water makes more sense, and having both Splash/TBA and BTMRR bookend opposite sides of the river feels more balanced.

 

[PiratesMansion]

Feels like a ridiculously convenient excuse. It was fine for 50 years; suddenly it’s problematic? And would it really be impossible to disconnect from the larger system and establish the river as an independent entity?

Maybe somebody at WDI could weigh in on this obviously controversial matter. Until then, I’m not going to give WDI the benefit of the doubt based on some Disney apologist on Twitter.

Not impossible, but something I doubt current Disney would feel is worth the expense.

It may be a ridiculously convenient excuse, and perhaps it is that, but the river is connected to those other systems and I do think that has to have some relevance in their making of this decision.

And for the record, I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt here. Just trying to understand the reasoning behind their decision and thinking that that tidbit of information at least gives me some context that helps me understand the situation better from their perspective. I still think ripping out the river is a bad idea.

For me it’s a combination of factors but probably:
- nostalgia - I only went to WDW once as a 13 year old, so I’m biased.
- “things to do” - views from hungry bear views, canoes, two river unique river vessels, train that actually interacts as an element of the river, Fantasmic. While the vegetation is nice it doesn’t scream “Wild West frontier” and the WDWRR during the river portion feels like a train ride through any local zoo or any regional theme park. Keel boats and canoes never were there and hadn’t been.
- The placement of the major e-tickets at DL is preferred. Having NoS and Pirates (with the Columbia) on the water makes more sense, and having both Splash/TBA and BTMRR bookend opposite sides of the river feels more balanced.

So, basically nostalgia for one and not the other.

I don't think the level of train interaction with the river pre-DL redo was that different between coasts, nor would I say the vegetation difference was particularly pronounced. I get that DL wins in terms of sheer number of vehicles, though it's worth noting that WDW actually ran the Keelboats later than DL did. To me, views and placement preferences are subjective, and while there's a lot to love about Disneyland's setup, I do love the way that both Mansion and Big Thunder's placement along the river makes both seem more dramatic and imposing. Both rivers have something to offer IMO.

 

[ᗩLᘿᑕ ✨ ᗩζᗩᗰ]

Exactly.

That info from the UCF (Go Knights!) professor sounded like a big, fancy excuse for doing this the cheap and dumb way, instead of the costlier and smarter way. I wonder how much funding TDO donates to his department at UCF?

Disneyland already proved you can shorten the Rivers of America, plus it up mightily in the process, and operate it fully with four different family attractions that get a combined hourly capacity of about 2,500 riders per hour. While that creative plus-up also preps the park for decades of future success from an operational and industrial engineering perspective.

Here's how they could add a real Cars Land, with three new rides instead of two, plus a large new Villains land with at least a half dozen new rides as the dark side of Fantasyland. The yellow arrows are large-scale walkways to facilitate movement around the northern flanks of the Magic Kingdom, just like the reworked River and Star Wars Land did for Disneyland five years ago...

View attachment 809426

But instead, Josh D'Amaro and Bruce Vaughn and the TDO President Du Jour are doing it the cheaper and dumber way, removing a River complex that has needed plussing and restored 1971 ride capacity for decades, in favor of two new Cars rides that combined will probably not equal the 2,500 riders per hour that Disneyland's four River attractions get on busy days.

View attachment 809428



As you shouldn't. As none of us should after this most recent D23 Expo.

The people now running the Parks are idiots, as this current situation now proves starkly. They are doing things cheap and easy, and leaving their parks in the same woefully under-invested and capacity constrained situation they've been in for 20 years.

A puffed up aplogist Tweet from an Orlando sycophant doesn't help, it just makes them all look even smarmier and dumber.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

So, basically nostalgia for one and not the other.

I don't think the level of train interaction with the river pre-DL redo was that different between coasts, nor would I say the vegetation difference was particularly pronounced. I get that DL wins in terms of sheer number of vehicles, though it's worth noting that WDW actually ran the Keelboats later than DL did. To me, views and placement preferences are subjective, and while there's a lot to love about Disneyland's setup, I do love the way that both Mansion and Big Thunder's placement along the river makes both seem more dramatic and imposing. Both rivers have something to offer IMO.

To be sure it’s subjective which is “better”, but to the point that @mickEblu was asking, if I’m scheduling a trip from out west to go I’d much rather prioritize seeing the array of AA theater shows (CoP, HoP, CBMJ, AA, even EPCOT the CircleVision shows) that harkin back to something sorely lacking at DL over riding the Liberty Belle or seeing TSI.

I certainly wouldn’t delay my trip based on ROA being closed if I’m a Disneyland local. I don’t intend to throw shade on WDW and I get people have their own connections to it, but realistically it’s just not a top of the list priority if you’ve been to other variations of magic kingdoms.

 

[Architectural Guinea Pig]

but realistically it’s just not a top of the list priority if you’ve been to other variations of magic kingdoms.

And for being the Magic Kingdom, an argument can be made that it is currently the worst castle park so far.

 

[mickEblu]

To be sure it’s subject which is “better”, but to the point that @mickEblu was asking, if I’m scheduling a trip from out west to go I’d much rather prioritize seeing the array of AA theater shows (CoP, HoP, CBMJ, AA, even EPCOT the CircleVision shows) that harkin back to something sorely lacking at DL over riding the Liberty Belle or seeing TSI.

I certainly wouldn’t delay my trip based on ROA being closed if I’m a Disneyland local. I don’t intend to throw shade on WDW and I get people have their own connections to it, but realistically it’s just not a top of the list priority if you’ve been to other variations of magic kingdoms.

Yeah although not ideal the ROA at MK being surrounded by Construction walls probably wouldn't get me to cancel. Sucks that I'll never get to see it but I think the 7 seas lagoon being behind construction walls or any of the WDW exclusive attractions being down would be more of a detriment.

 

[PiratesMansion]

To be sure it’s subject which is “better”, but to the point that @mickEblu was asking, if I’m scheduling a trip from out west to go I’d much rather prioritize seeing the array of AA theater shows (CoP, HoP, CBMJ, AA, even EPCOT the CircleVision shows) that harkin back to something sorely lacking at DL over riding the Liberty Belle or seeing TSI.

I certainly wouldn’t delay my trip based on ROA being closed if I’m a Disneyland local. I don’t intend to throw shade on WDW and I get people have their own connections to it, but realistically it’s just not a top of the list priority if you’ve been to other variations of magic kingdoms.

The thought that "obviously WDW's rivers are inferior" was breached in this thread well before MickEblu started wondering about his trip timing. I understand it's something that's easy to cross off a list if you're making a cross-country trip; that said, sometimes I feel like people are only interested in comparing certain things, and that can occasionally lead them to skip things that have more value than they might expect. I probably wouldn't put the riverboat itself on the list of must-sees, but I do maintain that TSI was significantly leveled up in Florida.

To the point that anyone should move up their trip to see it, I suppose not, but it does feel likesometimes people are like "what's actually better at WDW" but then don't actually have any interest in seeking out some of those smaller scale things that are part of that conversation, and that's a bit irritating, you know? Like, why not make a thorough effort to compare each park rather than pick like five things and base one's entire comparison on that, as many people do? But I digress.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I probably wouldn't put the riverboat itself on the list of must-sees, but I do maintain that TSI was significantly leveled up in Florida.

The AA chickens alone are worth the price! I miss seeing them at the barnstormer too.

 

[Steamboat71]

If villains are being built inside of the berm, then what are the chances Disney could relocate some of the ROA props so that they can be seen along the WDWR? It would be a good distraction from the potential villains show buildings being visible on the right side of the railroad.

 

[PiratesMansion]

If villains are being built inside of the berm, then what are the chances Disney could relocate some of the ROA props so that they can be seen along the WDWR? It would be a good distraction from the potential villains show buildings being visible on the right side of the railroad.

Sounds too hard for modern WDW, TBH.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

You know….. if Disney will kill the riverboat…. They could easily use this to end the railroad. They can make up some excuse about how the operation was “impossible” for the good of the park - and spin it like the riverboat.

Park a train at each station for photo ops and you end another “old fashioned” and boring ride that only crazy fans care about.

 

[mickEblu]

You know….. if Disney will kill the riverboat…. They could easily use this to end the railroad. They can make up some excuse about how the operation was “impossible” for the good of the park - and spin it like the riverboat.

Park a train at each station for photo ops and you end another “old fashioned” and boring ride that only crazy fans care about.

No that would be crazy… until it’s announced of course and everyone comes out of the woodworks to downplay the significance of the train.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

No that would be crazy… until it’s announced of course and everyone comes out of the woodworks to downplay the significance of the train.

“I rode it once, didn’t need to again”
“Doesn’t sell merch”
“Doesn’t sell lightning lane”
“Problematic cause it helped build America”
“Doesn’t sell LL”
“Disneylands is better”