Magic Kingdom to lose ROA, Riverboat, and TSI for Cars Land

[Disney Irish]

The cost of maintaining the river, and even assuming exorbitant plussing, won't come close to the cost of new large scale attractions at Disney's elevated costs. Removing the RoA will certainly save the operations side some money, but it isn't the primary motivation for this.

I’m not going to say I know what is needed or the costs involved. But if the rumors of the river being in terrible shape and needed a complete overhaul is true, we don’t know what that would entail let alone cost. The cost analysis might have shown it’s cheaper in the long run to just go with a new land than fix the river and plus it up.

 

[October82]

I’m not going to say I know what is needed or the costs involved. But if the rumors of the river being in terrible shape and needed a complete overhaul is true, we don’t know what that would entail let alone cost. The cost analysis might have shown it’s cheaper in the long run to just go with a new land than fix the river and plus it up.

There is zero chance that the costs to repair and maintain the concrete lining of the RoA remotely approach the cost of a new attraction. They’re an order of magnitude different.

 

[CaptinEO]

I mean the concept of removing TS, clearly they’re doing it with MK. It’s just something that I could foresee happening. Disney has been so unpredictable the last decade with what stays and what doesn’t . The removal of GMR in HS was just the beginning to me. Followed by removing streets of America in HS. They got rid of the ranch, they got rid of Splash etc. I hope it stays around but to see so much rampant removal to push IP everywhere has been very apparent lately.

They've been doing this since the 90s. Look at what they did to MKs Mr Toad and Tiki Room at that time. Also The Living Seas a couple of years later.

 

[truecoat]

There is zero chance that the costs to repair and maintain the concrete lining of the RoA remotely approach the cost of a new attraction. They’re an order of magnitude different.

But repairing the lining is only the beginning. They need to get behind Thunder Mountain. If you go around the backside, you lose the backstage area near the only bridge on that side (purple). The boat dock is in this area and it would probably need to be relocated and a pedestrian bridge is needed over the river (red).

They want to eliminate the dead end so you need another way around. You put a pathway next to the Haunted Mansion (purple) but now TSI needs to be dug out to keep the river's width.

I'm not saying I agree with what they are doing but it's more complicated than just repairing the ROA if expansion is on the table.

 

[Disney Irish]

There is zero chance that the costs to repair and maintain the concrete lining of the RoA remotely approach the cost of a new attraction. They’re an order of magnitude different.

There is more than the lining that is supposedly problematic with the river. Again I'm not going to claim knowledge of all the problems, but if you go back a few pages there was a summary of the issues. And again I'm not going to claim knowledge of all that everything costs, but a cost analysis was certainly done. And Disney obviously felt that whatever the costs of fixing the river it wasn't worth it compared to building a new attraction.

 

[Ne'er-Do-Well Cad]

Is there any actual evidence to this at all, or are we cutting Disney a ridiculous amount of slack based on one person's tweet?

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

And Disney obviously felt that whatever the costs of fixing the river it wasn't worth it compared to building a new attraction.

You could say that for every decision Disney makes. “Disney obviously felt that providing higher quality food wasn’t worth it compared to serving lower quality food”

Is there any actual evidence to this at all, or are we cutting Disney a ridiculous amount of slack based on one person's tweet?

That tweet is as ridiculous as the tittle “professor of hospitality”

 

[Disney Irish]

Is there any actual evidence to this at all, or are we cutting Disney a ridiculous amount of slack based on one person's tweet?

For some it won't matter whether there is actual evidence or not, they will be mad and nothing will change that.

You could say that for every decision Disney makes. “Disney obviously felt that providing higher quality food wasn’t worth it compared to serving lower quality food”

Disney does a cost analysis as a part of every decision they make, that is just what corporations do. Call it getting the bean counters involved. Whether you agree with their decision or not based on that cost analysis is up to you. But its part of their decision making process.

That tweet is as ridiculous as the tittle “professor of hospitality”

I'm not sure why people have an issue with that title.

Some college's have a Hospitality program, and a professor that is part of that department will be called a Professor of Hospitality.

 

[October82]

There is more than the lining that is supposedly problematic with the river. Again I'm not going to claim knowledge of all the problems, but if you go back a few pages there was a summary of the issues. And again I'm not going to claim knowledge of all that everything costs, but a cost analysis was certainly done. And Disney obviously felt that whatever the costs of fixing the river it wasn't worth it compared to building a new attraction.

There is no evidence for anything being wrong with the RoA at all, and the whole thing isn’t a complicated or expensive system to maintain.

This is a straightforward case of Tom Sawyer not moving merchandise the way Cars does. No need to cling to bad faith arguments about the small to a Disney sized company cost or state of the concrete. Those costs don’t begin to approach what Disney spends on a D-ticket.

 

[October82]

Is there any actual evidence to this at all, or are we cutting Disney a ridiculous amount of slack based on one person's tweet?

There is no actual evidence. It’s a second hand report from someone who studies the theme park industry but doesn’t have an engineering background.

 

[mickEblu]

I have a feeling they are going to keep the loop from Thunder to Mansion guys. And I’m basing all of this on Josh liking that tweet.

 

[Ne'er-Do-Well Cad]

Not impossible, but something I doubt current Disney would feel is worth the expense.

Clearly. That's why many of us are bummed out. I'm not delusional about the modern Disney company, but obviously we all remember a time when leadership saw value in spending money on the little things. MK already lost the 20,000 Leagues lagoon and much of the waterway around the hub.

It may be a ridiculously convenient excuse, and perhaps it is that, but the river is connected to those other systems and I do think that has to have some relevance in their making of this decision.

And for the record, I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt here. Just trying to understand the reasoning behind their decision and thinking that that tidbit of information at least gives me some context that helps me understand the situation better from their perspective. I still think ripping out the river is a bad idea.

It's plausible, for sure. I'd actually love for this to be the reason Disney is bulldozing MK's Rivers of America. You know, if it's something they're doing because they absolutely have no choice. In that case, fine. I'm just incredibly, incredibly dubious.

They're paving over an opening day land and not even admitting that they're doing it. Rubs me the wrong way.

So, basically nostalgia for one and not the other.

I don't think the level of train interaction with the river pre-DL redo was that different between coasts, nor would I say the vegetation difference was particularly pronounced. I get that DL wins in terms of sheer number of vehicles, though it's worth noting that WDW actually ran the Keelboats later than DL did. To me, views and placement preferences are subjective, and while there's a lot to love about Disneyland's setup, I do love the way that both Mansion and Big Thunder's placement along the river makes both seem more dramatic and imposing. Both rivers have something to offer IMO.

I agree with you that people in this thread (and in the WDW thread) are dramatically undervaluing MK's Rivers of America. I've always felt MK's ROA feels more natural and immersive, whereas DL's ROA (which, don't get me wrong, I love to death) is more of a 1950s theme park interpretation of these environments. MK's Tom Sawyer Island really feels like Tom Sawyer. A ride on the Liberty Belle actually feels like it could be a trip down the Mississippi.

I also prefer the staging of MK's spectacular-sized Big Thunder off in the distance (a fantastic weenie), as opposed to the more tucked away, Bryce Canyon-inspired DL version. The final drop toward the river is cinematic, unmatched by any moment in DL's version. And as a kid I loved, while waiting in line for Mansion, peering through the trees of TSI and seeing/hearing Big Thunder.

Don't get me started on the brilliance of Liberty Square's architectural transition into Frontierland. Ugh, such a loss.

 

[Disney Irish]

There is no evidence for anything being wrong with the RoA at all, and the whole thing isn’t a complicated or expensive system to maintain.

This is a straightforward case of Tom Sawyer not moving merchandise the way Cars does. No need to cling to bad faith arguments about the small to a Disney sized company cost or state of the concrete. Those costs don’t begin to approach what Disney spends on a D-ticket.

That tweet is not the first time I've heard about the MK RoA issues though. Its something I've heard for years on various sites that discuss Disney Parks. So there must be some kernel of truth to it.

 

[October82]

For some it won't matter whether there is actual evidence or not, they will be mad and nothing will change that.


Disney does a cost analysis as a part of every decision they make, that is just what corporations do. Call it getting the bean counters involved. Whether you agree with their decision or not based on that cost analysis is up to you. But its part of their decision making process.


I'm not sure why people have an issue with that title.

Some college's have a Hospitality program, and a professor that is part of that department will be called a Professor of Hospitality.

Just so we’re clear, Disney’s MBAs aren’t a group of omniscient people who always make the right business decisions. Internal cost-benefit analyses, if they’re done at all, are rarely rigorous and often have conclusions motivated by internal politics or a host of other things.

We are free to call out bad decisions as bad decisions - and not be dismissed as a “difference of opinion” because clearly corporate knows best.

If you’re looking forward to your next trip to Orlando including a Cars D-ticket, that’s great. The appeals to corporate logic aren’t needed and don’t add anything to discussion of this from a business or themed entertainment PoV.

 

[October82]

That tweet is not the first time I've heard about the MK RoA issues though. It’s something I've heard for years on various sites that discuss Disney Parks. So there must be some kernel of truth to it.

The kernel is that you need to maintain large static bodies of water and that has some operational cost.

 

[Disney Irish]

The kernel is that you need to maintain large static bodies of water and that has some operational cost.

No offense but why should I take your word on this over those I've heard over the years?

 

[Ne'er-Do-Well Cad]

You know….. if Disney will kill the riverboat…. They could easily use this to end the railroad. They can make up some excuse about how the operation was “impossible” for the good of the park - and spin it like the riverboat.

Park a train at each station for photo ops and you end another “old fashioned” and boring ride that only crazy fans care about.

I'd hope the railroad is safe, particularly given the prominence of the Main Street station. But will it still be there 50 years from now? After closing the railroad for years for TRON construction and now again (presumably) for Villains land, you just know there are people at Disney who are tired of dealing with the railroad at all.

 

[Consumer]

The argument that the Rivers aren't worth the maintenance reminds me of when people said Tower of Terror was going away for licensing reasons.

 

[October82]

No offense but why should I take your word on this over those I've heard over the years?

You shouldn’t take my word for it. The claims need to stand on their own and the specific claims that have been made are not plausible.

This isn’t because people are lying, it’s because they’re playing a game of telephone and lack the expertise to accurately convey the details they may have heard.

(I’m not claiming special knowledge, but as someone with a long career in STEM, I am qualified to assess many of the specific claims here.)

 

[Ne'er-Do-Well Cad]

Yes, please.
But ONLY if they ‘allow’ my boy Tony to be a part of the project.



-

So curious what he thinks of the ROA situation. Also CBMJ and TBA. Hoping for an interview where he gets really candid. Someone grab a tape recorder and pour the man a drink, haha.