Magic Kingdom to lose ROA, Riverboat, and TSI for Cars Land

Architectural Guinea Pig

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
I thought about this topic again today, and I just started laughing. 🤣 🤣 🤣

The executives in charge of Disney theme parks, especially the WDW parks, are just totally lost. And they're truly idiots.

All you can do at this point is laugh at them, and what they are idiotically doing to their own valuable property.
Plot twist: The executives are secretly super Disneyland fans and want the approval ratings for DL to soar through the roof- its a coup to make the DL resort the next WDW while destroying the original WDW
 

truecoat

Well-Known Member
Here's an interesting take by UCF Hospitality professor Bill Zanetti....

It’s hard to see from the art, but there are new ponds, streams, and waterfalls that are being created, so it’s not a total loss of water. There will actually be more kinetic energy with this than there currently is in the area. But as for why…

Remember that the Rivers of America at WDW are connected by a lock to the Seven Seas Lagoon. Major challenges exist to this river system and drainage in the area that need to be accounted for. The foundation of the river isn’t in great shape, nor is it filtered water. The nature of this river surrounding the island system also prevents construction on the islands. To retain any of this river as is would be impossible, as the connection would need to remain near Thunder Mountain to the lock.

One of the key drivers of this re-do was requested by the park management itself… to eliminate dead ends. That can’t be accomplished while retaining the navigable river system. So you have an aging river basin in dire need of resurfacing, logistical nightmares to improve the islands, and dead end pathways on two sides. Plus access must be created to get to the other side of the river systems for any expansion.

I can tell you that countless rides were taken on the riverboat by key people involved in this decision and it was not taken lightly. They know they have to blow everyone out of the water with what gets built on the site. (Pun intended) It still makes sense.

Cars being the IP was selected for WDI by others. Cars makes ridiculous financial and demographic sense. It sells merchandise like no other franchise, it will eventually allow for the removal of the Tomorrowland Speedway on the other side of the park to free up more valuable real estate in the park, it appeals to the Floridian demographic, and it appeals to families (not single millennials, if they were going for that demographic they would have themed the entire area to A Goofy Movie). Cars also is a friendly story that will provide the friendly alternative to the scary Villains land beyond.

How to fit Cars into the region is actually very real, as JL did concepts for the original films going through places like Yellowstone, but were never realized (though the adjacent franchise, Planes Fire & Rescue does take place in a Yellowstone-like national park). There is a lot more to this concept and I think you’ll see some more Cars related IP coming around the bend that will even cement how it makes logical sense being there. This concept is adjacent to National Parks (not inside one) and it is very pretty. I do have doubts about the reliability of it being outdoors in Florida, but that’s besides the point here.

The aesthetics of the land are based on the Grizzly Peak Recreation Area in DCA. (Piston Peak instead of Grizzly Peak) Obviously there are some aesthetic differences and it’s a Cars ride instead of a rapids ride, but that’s a product of the MK having Tiana’s so close and the IP requirement set above.

In the end, there was no way to save the existing river system. The new lands have major elevation changes that can’t be accomplished without altering the river, and the reality is that they have an obligation to push for more capacity in the park, even if it means at the cost of something so big. It will be tough to see for the next 5-10 years, but I’ve been assured it will all be worth it, and the new water features will be much cleaner and feel a lot more fun.

I hope that explains a lot of the decision making that went into this. Happy to answer a few other questions if you still have them (on twitter).
 

Architectural Guinea Pig

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
Here's an interesting take by UCF Hospitality professor Bill Zanetti....

It’s hard to see from the art, but there are new ponds, streams, and waterfalls that are being created, so it’s not a total loss of water. There will actually be more kinetic energy with this than there currently is in the area. But as for why…

Remember that the Rivers of America at WDW are connected by a lock to the Seven Seas Lagoon. Major challenges exist to this river system and drainage in the area that need to be accounted for. The foundation of the river isn’t in great shape, nor is it filtered water. The nature of this river surrounding the island system also prevents construction on the islands. To retain any of this river as is would be impossible, as the connection would need to remain near Thunder Mountain to the lock.

One of the key drivers of this re-do was requested by the park management itself… to eliminate dead ends. That can’t be accomplished while retaining the navigable river system. So you have an aging river basin in dire need of resurfacing, logistical nightmares to improve the islands, and dead end pathways on two sides. Plus access must be created to get to the other side of the river systems for any expansion.

I can tell you that countless rides were taken on the riverboat by key people involved in this decision and it was not taken lightly. They know they have to blow everyone out of the water with what gets built on the site. (Pun intended) It still makes sense.

Cars being the IP was selected for WDI by others. Cars makes ridiculous financial and demographic sense. It sells merchandise like no other franchise, it will eventually allow for the removal of the Tomorrowland Speedway on the other side of the park to free up more valuable real estate in the park, it appeals to the Floridian demographic, and it appeals to families (not single millennials, if they were going for that demographic they would have themed the entire area to A Goofy Movie). Cars also is a friendly story that will provide the friendly alternative to the scary Villains land beyond.

How to fit Cars into the region is actually very real, as JL did concepts for the original films going through places like Yellowstone, but were never realized (though the adjacent franchise, Planes Fire & Rescue does take place in a Yellowstone-like national park). There is a lot more to this concept and I think you’ll see some more Cars related IP coming around the bend that will even cement how it makes logical sense being there. This concept is adjacent to National Parks (not inside one) and it is very pretty. I do have doubts about the reliability of it being outdoors in Florida, but that’s besides the point here.

The aesthetics of the land are based on the Grizzly Peak Recreation Area in DCA. (Piston Peak instead of Grizzly Peak) Obviously there are some aesthetic differences and it’s a Cars ride instead of a rapids ride, but that’s a product of the MK having Tiana’s so close and the IP requirement set above.

In the end, there was no way to save the existing river system. The new lands have major elevation changes that can’t be accomplished without altering the river, and the reality is that they have an obligation to push for more capacity in the park, even if it means at the cost of something so big. It will be tough to see for the next 5-10 years, but I’ve been assured it will all be worth it, and the new water features will be much cleaner and feel a lot more fun.

I hope that explains a lot of the decision making that went into this. Happy to answer a few other questions if you still have them (on twitter).
Can you repost this in the Cars attraction thread by Wdwmagic? Just to make sure it has more traction
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Kids do. I liked it as a kid. I still like the original Autopia at DL so it can be a win win!

Me too! Problem is, there will always be something to wait for. I’ve delayed trips to Disneyland Paris because of refurbishments for years and so I’ve yet to visit at all.

Right! Or something to lose. Who knows what the next announcement is.
 

bwr827

Well-Known Member
Re-contextualize the land. Lean into the "hard facts." Consult leading historians and build a serious-minded boat/dark ride called "River of Democracy" that meaningfully and artistically engages with the centuries-long struggle for equality and suffrage for all Americans, honoring not only the top-down legal achievements of prominent men and women leaders but also all the ordinary people who participated in these movements and sacrificed and to whom we owe an enormous gratitude. Acknowledge this country's missteps, its violence, its non-linear progress, but also celebrate the resilience of its people.
The company would never do something this bold and dangerous. In their shoes, I wouldn’t either.
 

bwr827

Well-Known Member
Why is Universal building a new theme park? Why didn't they just fill in that unused space in the middle of Islands of Adventure and put the Ministry of Magic there?

View attachment 808852

So much wasted space! And so unpopular.
Obviously apples and oranges. But it’s understandable to be caught up in emotion of this loss to the degree that this comparison makes sense.
 
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bwr827

Well-Known Member
Who cares about the name if it means nothing? I want the Old West.

Disney hates Americana. They didn't replace "To Honor America" in MSEP for profit, it was an ideological statement, just like the systematic removal of the Old West from Frontierland.

If the loss of Rivers of America was the only change to Frontierland, then I could believe this, but given the removal of Splash, the Shooting Gallery, and the classic CBJ, I don't see how anyone can deny that Disney is deliberately trying to distance Frontierland from the Old West.
Go watch Lasseter talk about the inspiration for Cars. It’s pure Americana.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
WDW does have a lot of good theater shows including CoP, American Adventure, HoP, etc.

And their RoA wasn’t anything to write home about compare to DL’s.
See, this is what I don't understand (and for the record, this is not just directed at you specifically but to anyone who has made variations on this statement). There are multiple people who say that WDW's river isn't that good and I genuinely want to understand why people feel that way. I already mentioned the greater number of actual moving figures (certainly pre-DL rivers redo, but DL still has stagnant props and animals where I believe WDW does not) and the longer length, things that people allegedly really miss from the DL river.

I get that there aren't as many watercraft on the river, but otherwise, people who think the DL river is so dramatically superior and WDW's is inferior: why? Explain. And explainers, don't just say variations on "it's different from Disneyland's and is therefore wrong." Of course it's different from DL's, it was designed to be. Why are people so down on the WDW river?
Here's an interesting take by UCF Hospitality professor Bill Zanetti....

It’s hard to see from the art, but there are new ponds, streams, and waterfalls that are being created, so it’s not a total loss of water. There will actually be more kinetic energy with this than there currently is in the area. But as for why…

Remember that the Rivers of America at WDW are connected by a lock to the Seven Seas Lagoon. Major challenges exist to this river system and drainage in the area that need to be accounted for. The foundation of the river isn’t in great shape, nor is it filtered water. The nature of this river surrounding the island system also prevents construction on the islands. To retain any of this river as is would be impossible, as the connection would need to remain near Thunder Mountain to the lock.

One of the key drivers of this re-do was requested by the park management itself… to eliminate dead ends. That can’t be accomplished while retaining the navigable river system. So you have an aging river basin in dire need of resurfacing, logistical nightmares to improve the islands, and dead end pathways on two sides. Plus access must be created to get to the other side of the river systems for any expansion.

I can tell you that countless rides were taken on the riverboat by key people involved in this decision and it was not taken lightly. They know they have to blow everyone out of the water with what gets built on the site. (Pun intended) It still makes sense.

Cars being the IP was selected for WDI by others. Cars makes ridiculous financial and demographic sense. It sells merchandise like no other franchise, it will eventually allow for the removal of the Tomorrowland Speedway on the other side of the park to free up more valuable real estate in the park, it appeals to the Floridian demographic, and it appeals to families (not single millennials, if they were going for that demographic they would have themed the entire area to A Goofy Movie). Cars also is a friendly story that will provide the friendly alternative to the scary Villains land beyond.

How to fit Cars into the region is actually very real, as JL did concepts for the original films going through places like Yellowstone, but were never realized (though the adjacent franchise, Planes Fire & Rescue does take place in a Yellowstone-like national park). There is a lot more to this concept and I think you’ll see some more Cars related IP coming around the bend that will even cement how it makes logical sense being there. This concept is adjacent to National Parks (not inside one) and it is very pretty. I do have doubts about the reliability of it being outdoors in Florida, but that’s besides the point here.

The aesthetics of the land are based on the Grizzly Peak Recreation Area in DCA. (Piston Peak instead of Grizzly Peak) Obviously there are some aesthetic differences and it’s a Cars ride instead of a rapids ride, but that’s a product of the MK having Tiana’s so close and the IP requirement set above.

In the end, there was no way to save the existing river system. The new lands have major elevation changes that can’t be accomplished without altering the river, and the reality is that they have an obligation to push for more capacity in the park, even if it means at the cost of something so big. It will be tough to see for the next 5-10 years, but I’ve been assured it will all be worth it, and the new water features will be much cleaner and feel a lot more fun.

I hope that explains a lot of the decision making that went into this. Happy to answer a few other questions if you still have them (on twitter).
This helps explain this decision. Doesn't mean I love it or support it, but I can better understand where it's coming from.

Though I have to say that I feel like every time we're assured that Disney knows they need to do it right, that inevitably turns out to be said for big projects they botch.
I find it hard to believe The Walt Disney Company can’t figure out how to maintain a body of water in a theme park in 2024.
But that's the thing, this isn't just an isolated body of water in a theme park, the way it is at any other Disney theme park. This is one component of a massive, interconnected system within all of Walt Disney World. I have my own questions about what the loss of the river would mean for that system, but it is true that Seven Seas Lagoon and ROA are connected and play a role into the resort's larger system of waterways, and that would inherently introduce complications that none of the other rivers would have to deal with.
 

bwr827

Well-Known Member
100%. And I feel the same way. I'm not upset over this. Frankly I don't care. I've never been to the Magic Kingdom and don't plan to go any time soon. I have much bigger problems in my life than to get worked up over a fake river in theme park. But I'm also going to call it out like I see it, and that's that this change is a mistake.
People who don’t care about something don’t post on message boards about it.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It can be if they wanted / needed it to be. Especially if they made it a small circle.
Those canals/intertwined waterway systems are truly massive though. You couldn't just disconnect the Rivers from it and make it its own system just because; you would need to do quite a bit of re-engineering within the rest of the waterways as well to compensate for the fact that the river was in the system and now isn't.

If it was the 70s I could see them entertaining that possibility; now? No way would it be worth the expense to do so to current WDI and park execs, unfortunately.
 

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