Magic Kingdom to lose ROA, Riverboat, and TSI for Cars Land

[mickEblu]

I kid you not, people actually fear that if they admit they ever liked this fake theme park river and riverboat and kids play area, it means they’re “on the wrong side of history.” As if this is one of the critical social justice issues of our time.

They’d rather pretend anthropomorphic 1950s race cars make sense in a “frontier” themed land.

Yeah that happened a lot with TBA too but to do with a river is next level.

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

At least they're able to take advantage of the 2024 season...

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

When a story by Mark Twain is problematic but a story by John Lasseter isn’t. Oh the irony! Haha.

 

[haveyoumetmark]

I don’t buy the DEI angle either, this is purely a financial issue, they’ll make more money off this land as cars than they do as scenery, that’s all modern Disney cares about.

I’m hopeful they’ll surprise me and come up with a land that’s better utilized and beautiful but recent history isn’t on their side, we’ll likely have show buildings visible from the whole park that are simply painted go away green

The visible show building trend does haunt me, most egregiously at my favorite, EPCOT, with Cosmic Rewind and Soarin. Not to mention the eyesores in World Showcase Lagoon for Harmonious… I’m most grateful the barges were removed, though nothing will ever conceal the gravity building towering over Spaceship Earth. I try to relate to the dramatic reactions I read by thinking of how I would feel if that were SSE, which is most important to me. Much of what I read still strikes me as shallow, immature and in bad faith.

Who cares about the name if it means nothing? I want the Old West.

Disney hates Americana. They didn't replace "To Honor America" in MSEP for profit, it was an ideological statement, just like the systematic removal of the Old West from Frontierland.

If the loss of Rivers of America was the only change to Frontierland, then I could believe this, but given the removal of Splash, the Shooting Gallery, and the classic CBJ, I don't see how anyone can deny that Disney is deliberately trying to distance Frontierland from the Old West.

Oh brother. Who cares what you want? What else has remained virtually unchanged since the 1950s or even the 1970s? Especially something so popular in the modern zeitgeist. I‘m going to challenge you to think critically instead of appealing to your worst instincts, the same way I challenge myself. TWDC is a publicly traded Fortune 100 company that is increasingly globally relevant. You can only think of one reason they would change a 50 year old parade float? Are they trying to sweep patriotism under the rug? I lost count of the number of American flags I saw last time I visited Magic Kingdom. It was in no way ambiguous. Have you been? I can think of a number of higher priority hit list items for removal if their motivation is ‘hating Americana‘ as you say. Most curiously, they are replacing it with… more Americana. Cars is Americana.

I’m not denying they are expanding the theme of Frontierland, the same way they have expanded the themes of Adventureland, Fantasyland and Tomorrowland since the 1950s (1970s in FL). There have also been some changes to our understanding of American expansion in the last 50-70 years. If I spell them out, mods will probably delete my post. Can you think of why expanding its theme might increase Frontierland’s appeal? The parks are not for me anymore because they don’t sell Crockett caps.

But I find it incredibly difficult to believe that concerns about inclusion were not at the heart of the Frontierland/Cars decision. I disagree with characterizing this as a conspiracy theory. Even Len Testa (not a conspiracy theorist, as far as I'm aware) discussed forthcoming changes to Frontierland in this exact context in last week's Disney Dish ep.

Again, not saying it's a bad thing to update attractions/lands due to concerns about inclusion, which are legitimate in the context of theme parks that date back to 1955. Not saying "DEI has gone too far!!!" I don't know if anyone said TWDC hates America. But I do think Disney is lazy and doesn't want to engage with the complexity of American history in their parks because it's too difficult for them. In fact, there seems to be a squeamishness within WDI to anything even remotely challenging, and for several years now it has repeatedly resulted in short-sighted knee-jerk decisions (see also: Jessica Rabbit and her trench coat in Car Toon Spin). The DEI committee is relevant to the discussion to the extent that they (supposedly) flag the attractions with problematic elements; from there, WDI puts forward its bone-headed solutions. This is why they are systematically replacing the Americana stuff. It's just easier to shrug and bulldoze and build a lowest-common-denominator Cars attraction.

I think you argue in good faith, but I think finances are actually at the heart of these changes. MK’s major expansion pad is behind ROA, and I’m sure there are myriad reasons for replacing ROA. Ultimately it’s less expensive and will make more sense for wayfinding and guest flow. I think the emphasis on Disney’s approach to cultural sensitivity (or whatever you want to call it) is borne of ignorance. If folks sat in legal/PR/Marketing discussions for any company of Disney’s size and caliber, I think there would be a better understanding of what the problems are and how they ultimately factored into the changes being made.

They don’t hate Americana. It’s just that they happen to find every single thing in Frontierland celebrating or showcasing Americana “problematic.” Lol

The ROA though. I mean it’s a river. What did rivers do to anyone?

Do you see how your own logic doesn’t make any sense? Or is your question rhetorical?

I could see it being a factor, nowhere near what that tweet inferred though.

DEI was likely 99% of why Splash was changed, probably 50% of why the shooting gallery disappeared (the other 50% being DVC $), but I just don’t see it with ROA, maybe 10% because of Tom Sawyer with the other 90% being it was simply the cheapest and easiest way to make space for new revenue generating lands.

You are making too much sense.

The funny thing about this is that they had the concept art ready to show off but were too afraid to display it during the D23 presentation. They knew it wouldn't go over well so they just dumped it into a parks blog post. They know it's a bad move but the Cars merch sales will more than make up for the temporary backlash they're receiving.

I think you are conflating fan backlash with a bad move. You are mistaking savvy PR for fear. The D23 Presentation served one purpose and the Disney Parks Blog served another.

"Disney hates Americana" is silly in the sense that, like.. how can a corporation hate a concept?

But it's valid (in a flippant sense) in the same way it'd be valid to say "Disney hates sex," "Disney hates the macabre," "Disney hates anything violent."

It's why WDI removed the skulls on sticks in Adventureland, it's why they put a trench coat on Jessica Rabbit, it's why they're removing the hanging man from Haunted Mansion, it's why one day they'll remove the Hell finale from Mr. Toad. This stuff is just too challenging for Disney and so it needs to go.

Some stuff just isn’t appropriate anymore. When’s the last time you had a cigarette on an airplane?

I don’t think it’s about challenge, I think it‘s about basic PR. I think societal progress, customer satisfaction, lines at city hall, liability, etc all play a role. Toad is so irreverent and confounding that I really hope it stays, and I’d be super sad to see it go.

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

Concerning Lasseter... Hah... yeah... it'll be interesting to note the difference in detail of this compared to Carsland... which was his baby.

Ya know... I hope we get to hear about all the Imagineering.... 'survey trips'? What did they call them again? I'm certain they took SEVERAL trips to Jackson Hole... the Amangani is $2500 a night... I can imagine the imagineers lounging by the pool overlooking the Grand Teton's, truly enveloped in the "WEST"-

Having spent the morning whisked away on a private 4x4 backcountry tour-

After ordering another bone marrow with fresh tomatillo salsa appetizer (gotta use that per diem)....

They thought to themselves... that THIS is what they need in the park. THIS is the WEST... THIS is what they must bring to the lesser people, er, guests. Later that evening after several drinks were had in in the lounge...

A momentous conversation took place... "Hey, what was that car we rode in today?" "It was a jeep or something" "Yeah, but it was a CAR... like... Cars..."

The rest, they say, is history.

 

[haveyoumetmark]

Disney was bulldozing historic attractions/area of the parks and replacing them with IP long before the DEI was a thing. There were quite a few theme parks built in the 60s and 70s that also had a ROA inspired area and riverboat or island reached only by raft when they opened (among them, off the top of my head, Six Flags over Texas, Carowinds, etc); needless to say, those rides don't exist anymore and have largely been gone for decades. They weren't removed because of PC concerns, they were removed because the land was seen as expendable to build something they valued more (in their case, it was roller coasters). I think in this case the simplest, most direct answer is the most logical one.

And we don't yet know that the hanging man is gone from Mansion or that there are any plans to remove Hell from Toad. You are assuming the worst possible reading of the situation and what it says about what's coming when in my view a much simpler, more direct explanation makes more sense: Cars will make money and better use what to them is worthless space.

Agree.

That sucks. With that said, I guess of the 4 parks, if any of them had to be in a state of massive construction MK would be the lesser of all evils for a Disneyland AP like me.

Oh man, your gratitude for DLR will grow exponentially. Basically the same number of attractions in WDW split between 2 parks within walking distance. Disneyland is so compact, accessible, and historic, it packs such a punch in terms of attractions. I grew up at WDW and it is special, but when I visited with my friend from DLR I was cringing at the state of disrepair and low density of attractions.

If Liberty Square is on the chopping block (which I expect it is), I wonder if it would be possible for the Haunted Mansion to be absorbed by the upcoming Villains land, or if it would be taken in by Frontierland.

It’s not. In fact, there’s a revived rumor gaining traction about a HOP update that will use The Muppets to cover American history. Kind of a weird thing for a company to invest in when they hate Americana, don't you think? Certainly wouldn’t be my approach if I were trying to sweep all references to American history under the rug…

While this is sad, and I think Cars does not belong anywhere in MK or Frontierland, I am honestly not that miffed about this on account of MK's RoA being a copy. I think DL's RoA is the more sacred land here.

But without getting too political: It's undeniable that a part of what is motivating this change and many others is socio-political activism within the company. We've known for years that TSI has had a target on it, and not just because kids today are unfamiliar with Tom Sawyer. There's a deliberate ideological campaign within the company to purge the parks of anything deemed "problematic". Splash Mountain was a casualty, the shooting arcade was a casualty, original CBJ was a casualty, the natives in Jungle Cruise were a casualty. And TSI confirms to me that there is more coming. Nothing is safe or sacred anymore.

I really do think it's possible we might see Main Street USA rethemed in our lifetimes. And when that happens it will be one of the final confirmations that I am not the audience for these parks anymore. I'm not angry or emotional about it (got over that shortly after the TBA announcement), but it's just a gradual and depressing realization that these parks are not for me anymore.

What you are saying isn’t true, it’s a particularly dark characterization and that’s your choice. I see agreeable PR positioning and you see a nefarious ideological campaign. In any case, It’s not a pie. Just because our country’s (and planet’s) demographics are changing, and the parks are adjusting their content to appeal to more people, doesn’t mean they aren’t for you anymore. That’s of course your choice to make, but it strikes me as melodramatic and very sad. it’s incomprehensible to me that you think they’ve changed that much.

Wild that they’re not even putting a small to medium size water feature in that space. No lagoon, pond, river nothing. God forbid they “waste” an inch of space. All of those old attractions were designed to be facing the river. Now they’re all facing a CARS rally race ride? This is the company we spend/ waste so much of our time on? People that make these decisions? Completely gutting the entire ROA (the soul of the park) to add two rides at Disney World? That’s the size of the city? Ridiculous.

Wrong. Yes, they are. There is water in the art. Josh referenced water in the announcement. These people have been designing natural landscapes with water for decades. There will be water. Bad faith arguments abound.

Imagine if they removed Disneyland's Rivers of America. The entirety of New Orleans Square encircling a racetrack.

Well if they hate Americana so much and the powers that be are the same, then why aren’t they? If ROA in MK is being removed because of why you suggest it is, then why doesn’t that apply to DL?

 

[BasiltheBatLord]

What you are saying isn’t true, it’s a particularly dark characterization and that’s your choice. I see agreeable PR positioning and you see a nefarious ideological campaign. In any case, It’s not a pie. Just because our country’s (and planet’s) demographics are changing, and the parks are adjusting their content to appeal to more people, doesn’t mean they aren’t for you anymore. That’s of course your choice to make, but it strikes me as melodramatic and very sad. it’s incomprehensible to me that you think they’ve changed that much.

Some of our insiders have commented about how there are entire task forces and committees within the company aimed at examining everything in the parks for "problematic" content to rectify (this is usually the primary goal of company DEI departments since they need to justify their existence). One of the studio's executive producers is on record about having a specific "agenda" she aims to add into company content. They ruined one of their highest rated rides over something that no one was actually complaining about because they panicked during a high tension socio-political moment.

It's an agenda and it's ideological. Not much to debate on that point. Re: changing demographics, I would be interested to see which demographics actually felt offended and underrepresented in a Disney park because I would be willing to bet the reality is that no one found any of this stuff actually offensive or disagreeable to them personally. The singing bunnies and chickens log ride was not some horribly offensive afront to any particular group of people.

Again getting a bit out of the scope of this thread, but this is happening all over corporate America and it's linked to educational polarization. Certain socio-political beliefs and values (I won't say here what they are) have become core identities of a certain political side as a result of increasing polarization and decades of activist influence. The influence of polarization means that pursuit of these values is valid in all institutions and all contexts, no matter the means. Colleges, which already were heavily dominated by one political side on campus and in academia, are funneling new grads into corporations and other institutions where those new grads are taking on an activist mindset to promote those politically-coded values, even though they are significantly out of step with mainstream beliefs and opinions, and as a result those values begin to become the "common sense" since they are being pushed by all of the institutions (which is the activist goal in the first place).

But I'll stop here so as not to derail this thread any further.

 

[DLR92]

This is embarrassing. WDW isn’t landlocked like here in Disneyland Resort. There’s so much undeveloped land around Magic Kingdom. Even if it swamp. Drain it! They have resources to do it. But they want to be cheap and remove large parts of history of Magic Kingdom of what makes it a “Disneyland” park.

I am glad in some ways we have people who cared about the history of Disneyland itself. But Disney creativity and how they are navigating new developments is losing its luster for me.
It echoes how I feel with DCA, it like leadership here is done with California theme. Let alone theme is losing it focus for more IP driven developments is just distasteful as well. Disney was pride in creativity, cohesiveness, how everything just tied together.

 

[donaldtoo]

I get the whole “not a museum” thing, but to take all that history and flush it for Cars, of all friggin’ things, is a nightmare come true.
It’s like all these Disney top players are falling all over themselves to justify their jobs by coming up with new crap, and they’re destroying the Parks in the process, with no regard whatsoever for the depth, detail, quality and history of the Parks intended original theming.

 

[duncedoof]

Some of our insiders have commented about how there are entire task forces and committees within the company aimed at examining everything in the parks for "problematic" content to rectify (this is usually the primary goal of company DEI departments since they need to justify their existence). One of the studio's executive producers is on record about having a specific "agenda" she aims to add into company content.

So I read the article, and both it and this post blow up the claim, honestly. It read to me as a witty remark, linked to their openness to allow more stories in that department. Vetoing the possibility of those stories would also be a "specific agenda", and that was undoubtedly the one that was in place before. If you really want to push it, everyone has an agenda!

I think the word you're looking for is a "takeover", and it borders on conspiracy. Mainstream polling proves none of this being radical to most people.

Corporations already know what I just said above. Corporate suits won't lift a finger unless they're sure it won't cost assuredly them money. They have graphs and research definitively let them know it's now OK to do new things or make changes. I think recent changes to legacy rides have, indeed, been an overreaction. Even people will the views you clearly fear can see that. That's on Disney playing it safe, and like someone else mentioned before in this thread, not wanting to tackle tougher issues in their theme parks these days. Which they could still absolutely do and tastefully, which is why I can't buy into this narrative.

 

[Phroobar]

Remember the good old days when everyone freaked out about Disney shortening Disneyland's ROA for that "cancerous growth".

People threaten to not renew their annual passes and never step foot in the new land only to instantly renew and be the first to post pictures.

Aaah, the memories.

 

[wdrive]

Remember the good old days when everyone freaked out about Disney shortening Disneyland's ROA for that "cancerous growth".

People threaten to not renew their annual passes and never step foot in the new land only to instantly renew and be the first to post pictures.

Aaah, the memories.

Slicing a bit off and improving what remained vs paving over the whole thing are two very different things, to me anyway

 

[Phroobar]

Slicing a bit off and improving what remained vs paving over the whole thing are two very different things, to me anyway

Same reaction. Go read the Galaxy's Edge thread.

 

[wdrive]

Same reaction. Go read the Galaxy's Edge thread.

I read most of it at the time.

And I’m not quite sure what you’re saying? That the river isn’t getting entirely paved over?

I’ve reacted very differently to how I did about Disneyland’s river

 

[Consumer]

I read most of it at the time.

And I’m not quite sure what you’re saying? That the river isn’t getting entirely paved over?

I’ve reacted very differently to how I did about Disneyland’s river

Yeah, I remember being bummed out that the boat ride would be shorter and less secluded, but we didn’t lose the waterfront (even during construction!) and I was excited for the new scenery. This change for Magic Kingdom is a different beast all together.

 

[DrAlice]

So many thoughts..

#1: Fully agree with @TP2000 's assessment about this being a stupid decision operationally. Trading ROA for Cars is removing 2 attractions to add 2 attractions. This is not expansion, which by most accounts, is what MK desperately needs. This is a Pressler-like decision. IF villains land gets built after this, that might add capacity. They haven't told us yet what they plan to remove first. Pressler-era means if you add something, you must take something away. I think that's where Disney is now.

#2: Fully agree with @PiratesMansion that the execs are incompetent. They have completely "lost the plot" on what their theme parks are. They're adding modern talking cartoon cars to Frontierland while removing its icon. In a California-themed park, they will build the alien planet from Avatar. Indy, Zootopia, and Encanto in the park themed to animals and conservation (Was I the only one that found it ironic that the company honored Joe Rhode as a "Disney Legend" after announcing putting a bunch of random stuff into the park he so vehemently defended?). Ugh. They don't know their own product. At all.

#3: Disney parks are not for us anymore. After reading the comments of so many people defending the decision to fill in the ROA, I've come to the conclusion that the execs have decided to chase a different park-going demographic. We aren't it. Their new target demographic are people that don't know much about the parks and just want a fun amusement park vacation. They will come once, spend a bunch of money, and probably not return. But, their presence will boost the quarterly earnings report, so it's fine if they don't come back. The execs will pat themselves on the back for boosting earnings, then build some new shiny thing (regardless if it makes sense or not), replacing something "old and worn out that no one likes anymore". A new crop of people will come for their one-time trip, because FOMO, spend a bunch of money, and move on to something else. It is obvious to fans like us that this is not a sustainable plan, but the execs in charge will be long gone before those chickens come home to roost.

#4: I fear for the future of Disneyland.

 

[el_super]

So if we get to keep the Rivers of America because we have the better version... does that mean our Monorail is toast?

 

[Misted Compass]

You know, if they really need to "recontextualize" Frontierland, there's already a solution thought up for it.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

So if we get to keep the Rivers of America because we have the better version... does that mean our Monorail is toast?

While I don’t think they’d ever fully remove it I think a future retrack is in the future for Pandora West and Eastern Gateway. I’ll keep RoA over Monorail any day though.

 

[Californian Elitist]

#3: Disney parks are not for us anymore. After reading the comments of so many people defending the decision to fill in the ROA, I've come to the conclusion that the execs have decided to chase a different park-going demographic. We aren't it. Their new target demographic are people that don't know much about the parks and just want a fun amusement park vacation. They will come once, spend a bunch of money, and probably not return. But, their presence will boost the quarterly earnings report, so it's fine if they don't come back. The execs will pat themselves on the back for boosting earnings, then build some new shiny thing (regardless if it makes sense or not), replacing something "old and worn out that no one likes anymore". A new crop of people will come for their one-time trip, because FOMO, spend a bunch of money, and move on to something else. It is obvious to fans like us that this is not a sustainable plan, but the execs in charge will be long gone before those chickens come home to roost.

And this has been the case for years now. Nothing is changing.

The sooner folks both realize and accept this, the less it’ll all sting. You just get used to it.