Magic Kingdom evening Extra Magic Hours attraction line-up to change next week

[disneyeater]

While I agree with you ... what would they replace it with? They don't have another E-ticket because ... they have been stagnant for years in terms of expansion which in reality is the root of the problem ... They couldn't afford to take Splash and Thunder down at the same time because of a lack of E-ticket headliners within the MK ... so Splash suffered tremendously by not getting it's yearly refit and now they have to cut it from the lineup to attempt to fix the neglect.

It is unfortunate however it is reality.

Don't disagree that they didn't have many options to replace it with. That said, literally any other ride in the entire park would be a more popular choice. This has to be the least popular ride in the Magic Kingdom...no?

 

[devoy1701]

Don't disagree that they didn't have many options to replace it with. That said, literally any other ride in the entire park would be a more popular choice. This has to be the least popular ride in the Magic Kingdom...no?

I think Stitch could give it a run for its money...

 

[wannab@dis]

No, it isn't hyperbole. Undertrained, inexperienced outside contractors were brought in as a cost saving measure. Two guests died as a result, at no fault of their own. How many guests died (not counting guest misbehavior) prior to those two incidents at DL, before the cuts in maintenence? How 'bout none?

As for the Mono incident. How many hours had those poor guys been working? Mistakes like that tend to happen when the cast has been stretched thin and are overworked. If I recall the details of that incident, that was the case.

Actually, someone died prior to that when an EMPLOYEE messed up.

There will be accidents, caused by the faults of humans. Not everything can be traced to cost savings. But, keep trying.

 

[Lee]

Actually, someone died prior to that when an EMPLOYEE messed up.

What/when was this? I don't recall any earlier negligence related deaths.

 

[flynnibus]

You paint a grim picture. I don't agree that the economic situation in the last decade had no impact on why WDW resorted to cost cutting. That theory is definitely not bunk

Then how do you explain the change in business practice that happened PRIOR to the economic downturn? The late ninties were a boom period. Its in this period that leadership changed and business practices changed - not in the last 4-5 years. What you see now is the result of robbing peter to pay paul. The show standard issues pre-date the economic downturn.. what you have now is simply 'no where else to go' so they have to cut actual product to keep up the numbers that are unsustainable.

What you see here is what happens when you cut muscle, not fat. You get weaker.. and when the wind blows... you get knocked over.

 

[sgtmgd]

As

Then how do you explain the change in business practice that happened PRIOR to the economic downturn? The late ninties were a boom period. Its in this period that leadership changed and business practices changed - not in the last 4-5 years. What you see now is the result of robbing peter to pay paul. The show standard issues pre-date the economic downturn.. what you have now is simply 'no where else to go' so they have to cut actual product to keep up the numbers that are unsustainable.

What you see here is what happens when you cut muscle, not fat. You get weaker.. and when the wind blows... you get knocked over.

Much as I like to dissagree with Flynn in general.. on this particular statement I would concur at least in theory...

But Id also state that WDW has been systematicaly refurbing "major" attractions...Space Mountain a couple years dack..Big THundar this year...Main street (yes it took a while) but by all accounts looks fantastic..Country Bears getting ready for much needed love..Test Track is getting a major overhaul...Star Tours got a refurb..Fantasy land is getting redone and adding rides..Tonys underwent a rehab and quality upgrade ..AK is getting a new land..I mean listening to this you would think..WDW looks like "Wally World"...Im guessing Spash Mountain will be next in line to get some love..but these things cant all be down at teh same time..the resorts are getting upgrades..I mean what do you want..its not like Disney hasnt ALWAYS had issues... 20,000 LUTS was my favorite ride but had constant problems..from day one til they closed it..(do some research on that fiasco) Im still bitter over that BUT in know way have ever considered NOT going or ignoring the good things Disney trys to do...Disney has the financial stabilty to address whatever comes down the pike...everyone is a great backup quarterback..or backseat driver..

 

[devoy1701]

As



Much as I like to dissagree with Flynn in general.. on this particular statement I would concur at least in theory...

But Id also state that WDW has been systematicaly refurbing "major" attractions...Space Mountain a couple years dack..Big THundar this year...Main street (yes it took a while) but by all accounts looks fantastic..Country Bears getting ready for much needed love..Test Track is getting a major overhaul...Star Tours got a refurb..Fantasy land is getting redone and adding rides..Tonys underwent a rehab and quality upgrade ..AK is getting a new land..I mean listening to this you would think..WDW looks like "Wally World"...Im guessing Spash Mountain will be next in line to get some love..but these things cant all be down at teh same time..the resorts are getting upgrades..I mean what do you want..its not like Disney hasnt ALWAYS had issues... 20,000 LUTS was my favorite ride but had constant problems..from day one til they closed it..(do some research on that fiasco) Im still bitter over that BUT in know way have ever considered NOT going or ignoring the good things Disney trys to do...Disney has the financial stabilty to address whatever comes down the pike...everyone is a great backup quarterback..or backseat driver..

All of those refurbs that you have named were years late and (with the exception of Star Tours, and the reason for this was probably that DL shared the costs!) have been done with slashed budgets to just push through minimal fixes. Splash goes down for 6 weeks every single year during the winter...it should be the BEST running attraction at WDW because of that! Other attractions have been slated for refurbs to have them cancelled whenever their cycle comes around (see Jungle Cruise, Great Movie Ride, etc).

 

[IWant2GoNow]

Normally I'm pretty patient with any type of poster on these forums. But when someone is presented with actual facts that numerous people in-the-know, or actual CMs bring forth... Especially when death-by-cutbacks is considered "hyperbole"... well... Not that he/she cares but congrats for being the first on my ignore list.

@Alektronic, do you happen to know if this move is permanent?

 

[GoofGoof]

Then how do you explain the change in business practice that happened PRIOR to the economic downturn? The late ninties were a boom period. Its in this period that leadership changed and business practices changed - not in the last 4-5 years. What you see now is the result of robbing peter to pay paul. The show standard issues pre-date the economic downturn.. what you have now is simply 'no where else to go' so they have to cut actual product to keep up the numbers that are unsustainable.

What you see here is what happens when you cut muscle, not fat. You get weaker.. and when the wind blows... you get knocked over.

We can agree to disagree. 2001 was 11 years ago not 4 or 5. I'm not saying it was solely based on just the economic downturn, but that had a big impact and it's not just WDW. Look back to Lee's post on DL. They were doing some of the same things in cutting maintenance. I don't think it's just a conspiracy by TDO to run down their parks. Again this is just my opinion.

 

[wannab@dis]

What/when was this? I don't recall any earlier negligence related deaths.

The sailing ship in the late 90's

 

[wannab@dis]

I love to see posters that have such weak arguments that they must rely on ad homs, calling someone trolls, being paid off, or adding to ignore. I haven't added any poster to my ignore list. I do scroll past a few that can't write independent posts or think for themselves, just simply regurgitate the talking points of others. Again, Lee, this isn't directed at you. I simply don't agree with the position you've moved toward over the past couple of years. There are issues at WDW, of that, I agree. But things are not as bad as some want them to be.

 

[flynnibus]

The sailing ship in the late 90's

When he said two people.. he was including the Columbia. One died on BTMRR, one died on the Columbia dock. Both were caused by lack of focus on maintenance by management resulting in corner cutting, lack of training, lack of awareness, and ultimately mistakes that cost people's lives.

The monorail accident was complacency.. again, a byproduct of the focus and attitude in a work environment. Usually a leadership issue.

 

[wannab@dis]

When he said two people.. he was including the Columbia. One died on BTMRR, one died on the Columbia dock. Both were caused by lack of focus on maintenance by management resulting in corner cutting, lack of training, lack of awareness, and ultimately mistakes that cost people's lives.

The monorail accident was complacency.. again, a byproduct of the focus and attitude in a work environment. Usually a leadership issue.

I may be missing some of the details, but what I remember of the BTMRR issue was someone not tightening a bolt - a human error. The training issue was about some paperwork procedures, nothing to do with tightening the bolts. Even the Disney CMs didn't act when the train was making funny noises. So, there was more at fault than simply saying it was cost cutting. As I recall, the monorail incident was someone who didn't make sure the track was moved... not paying attention - again, not cost cutting.

Let me guess, whenever you're at work and not at 100% or you make a mistake, it's not your fault, it's your manager's fault? Gotcha. Always blame others.

 

[flynnibus]

I may be missing some of the details, but what I remember of the BTMRR issue was someone not tightening a bolt - a human error. The training issue was about some paperwork procedures, nothing to do with tightening the bolts

The issues were
- supervisors were not actually verifying work was done
- an error was made in the repair
- investigation showed operators and staff didn't even understand the procedures and meanings behind the tags

The work environment had broken down to where fundamentals were not being adhered because they were in an environment where they were being forced to do more and more with less and less. In the push to keep things running at all costs.. they were cutting corners and cheating. They were found to be SYSTEMATICALLY at fault. Ultimately, people were hurt and killed as a result.

So, there was more at fault than simply saying it was cost cutting

You are looking at the conclusion.. and ignoring how you ended up there. These human failures are resultant of the way the organization was being ran.

. As I recall, the monorail incident was someone who didn't make sure the track was moved... not paying attention - again, not cost cutting.

You don't run systems that can kill people purely on hoping a single human error doesn't happen. The monorail incident was not as bad organizationally as the DLR incidents were. The monorail accident was more a mix of things that were concurrent human errors and deficenies in areas that could have prevented it.

Let me guess, whenever you're at work and not at 100% or you make a mistake, it's not your fault, it's your manager's fault? Gotcha. Always blame others.

Maybe you should actually read the NTSB and CalOSHA reports.. they exist for a reason and know why we have procedures and policies? So you AREN'T exposed to simple, single, human errors. Your attitude is poor and illustrates that even as much as you want to be the one telling others they are exaggerating.. you haven't even done the basic research or study to be intelligent in the topic.

 

[Alektronic]

You do realize that actual hard numbers of how many maintenance workers there are, how they're deployed, how many have been let go, etc. are virtually impossible for fans to get, unless you happen to know the password to Bob Iger's computer? The experiences of a 20+ year CM are as good as we're going to get.


Is the L.A. Times a reliable source? Disney Ride Upkeep Assailed Two guests have died at DL due to shoddy maintenance/training and through no fault of their own. There are more nonfatal accidents. Do you really think it can't happen at WDW?

It's already happened, 2 CM's at DAK already killed by the same ride. One in ops and other in maintenance and it was due to not having enough people to staff the ride safely. And the ride is still running because they need those hourly rider counts and ride capacity for DAK.

 

[Lee]

The BTMRR accident was caused by a broken connector bar on the front car. This should have been caught during the overnight maintenance inspection, but the outside contractors failed to do a full inspection. I have the full report, but not in front of me. I seem to recall one worker signing off on an inspection that wasn't done.

Yes, the ride ops should have pulled the train, but it was a train that never should have left the barn that day.

The incident where the cleat flew off the Columbia and killed a guy was the direct result of wood rot on the ship's railing. Reduced maintenance prevented said rot from being addressed in a timely manner.

As for my posting style, I don't feel it has changed. I strive to be completely fair, but brutally honest. Sadly, these days, situations make me often appear more negative than I would prefer.

 

[TarzanRocked99-]

The BTMRR accident was caused by a broken connector bar on the front car. This should have been caught during the overnight maintenance inspection, but the outside contractors failed to do a full inspection. I have the full report, but not in front of me. I seem to recall one worker signing off on an inspection that wasn't done.

Yes, the ride ops should have pulled the train, but it was a train that never should have left the barn that day.

The incident where the cleat flew off the Columbia and killed a guy was the direct result of wood rot on the ship's railing. Reduced maintenance prevented said rot from being addressed in a timely manner.

As for my posting style, I don't feel it has changed. I strive to be completely fair, but brutally honest. Sadly, these days, situations make me often appear more negative than I would prefer.

and sadly, speaking the honest truth these days is more than often less than magical here in LBV

 

[Alektronic]

I may be missing some of the details, but what I remember of the BTMRR issue was someone not tightening a bolt - a human error. The training issue was about some paperwork procedures, nothing to do with tightening the bolts. Even the Disney CMs didn't act when the train was making funny noises. So, there was more at fault than simply saying it was cost cutting. As I recall, the monorail incident was someone who didn't make sure the track was moved... not paying attention - again, not cost cutting.

Let me guess, whenever you're at work and not at 100% or you make a mistake, it's not your fault, it's your manager's fault? Gotcha. Always blame others.

But it was management's fault by not properly staffing the maintenance crew. What happened was the mechanics working that night were very thin because of some on vacation, they decided they didn't need any extra people, they didn't want to pay any overtime. So they just used an minimum amount of workers as they plenty of times before. Then the supervisor needed someone to check the trains at BTMRR but other guys were busy so they decided to use someone from another area who was not familar or even worked on BTMRR before and they told him to check out the trains for any loose or missing hardware. I can't blame the worker because he never worked on the trains before, but was expected to do it right. So he missed a loose nut connecting the 1st car to the 2nd car and there was no cotter pin preventing the nut from backing out. No one ever second checked the job and just hoped he did it right.

 

[wannab@dis]

Maybe you should actually read the NTSB and CalOSHA reports.. they exist for a reason and know why we have procedures and policies? So you AREN'T exposed to simple, single, human errors. Your attitude is poor and illustrates that even as much as you want to be the one telling others they are exaggerating.. you haven't even done the basic research or study to be intelligent in the topic.

You're drawing conclusions that everything is traced back to cost cutting and ultimately the responsibility of someone above the guilty party. I'm drawing the conclusion there was human error. The issue with BTMRR was a bolt not being tightened properly. Period. That was somebody's fault and they knew it should be tightened. The training issues surrounding the tags was not directly responsible for the accident. Granted, that should have happened, but even if the tags were understood, and people signed their own tags, that would not have stopped someone improperly torquing a bolt.

And yes, I did look up the BTMRR incident to make sure my memory served me correctly. I wasn't specific on the details but I was accurate on the main issues. I guess I have to go look up the Monorail incident now so I can be sure your poor bias is not once again coming into play.

 

[devoy1701]

You're drawing conclusions that everything is traced back to cost cutting and ultimately the responsibility of someone above the guilty party. I'm drawing the conclusion there was human error. The issue with BTMRR was a bolt not being tightened properly. Period. That was somebody's fault and they knew it should be tightened. The training issues surrounding the tags was not directly responsible for the accident. Granted, that should have happened, but even if the tags were understood, and people signed their own tags, that would not have stopped someone improperly torquing a bolt.

And yes, I did look up the BTMRR incident to make sure my memory served me correctly. I wasn't specific on the details but I was accurate on the main issues. I guess I have to go look up the Monorail incident now so I can be sure your poor bias is not once again coming into play.

See @Alektronic 's post right before yours.

When it comes to business, any business really, many problems, accidents, or issues can be directly or indirectly tied back to cost cutting/cutting corners.