Long range RFID testing has started

Glasgow

Glasgow

Well-Known Member
My bigger issue with MM+ is that the onus is now on the guest to maximize their entertainment and vacation value, rather than disney providing excess capacity (and subsequently better crowd control) through expansion. Every company that sells a product or service is clamoring for analytics to improve profits - nothing new there. The question will become, is using this data being used to manipulate me in some way without my knowledge or approval. This is yet to be seen but is a real impending issue.

I'm not as worried about what they're going to do with this information as I am about having to script out such a large part of my holiday now.

Which park are we going to today? Check. Ride FPs? Check. Dining ADRs? Check. Wait, you want to go to a different park this afternoon? No can do, we're scheduled to ride space Mtn at 8pm and have a dinner reside at 845 at Crystal palace!
 
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seascape

Well-Known Member
Glasgow said:
My bigger issue with MM+ is that the onus is now on the guest to maximize their entertainment and vacation value, rather than disney providing excess capacity (and subsequently better crowd control) through expansion. Every company that sells a product or service is clamoring for analytics to improve profits - nothing new there. The question will become, is using this data being used to manipulate me in some way without my knowledge or approval. This is yet to be seen but is a real impending issue.

I'm not as worried about what they're going to do with this information as I am about having to script out such a large part of my holiday now.

Which park are we going to today? Check. Ride FPs? Check. Dining ADRs? Check. Wait, you want to go to a different park this afternoon? No can do, we're scheduled to ride space Mtn at 8pm and have a dinner reside at 845 at Crystal palace!
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You don't have to make plans. No one is forced to use MDE. It's only an option. It is one I think most people will like and in fact have liked based on trip reports I've read on this and other sites. Those of us here are an extreme minority of those who go to either park. Our views are most likely not the same as the vast majority and none of us should take what is said here to seriously. An independent poll of the Disney guests is the only way to really know if it is liked or not and only Disney can hire a company to do that because only Disney knows who the guests are. I expect they have done this and will continue to. Just like universal does with their customers.
 
Glasgow

Glasgow

Well-Known Member
seascape said:
You don't have to make plans. No one is forced to use MDE. It's only an option. It is one I think most people will like and in fact have liked based on trip reports I've read on this and other sites. Those of us here are an extreme minority of those who go to either park. Our views are most likely not the same as the vast majority and none of us should take what is said here to seriously. An independent poll of the Disney guests is the only way to really know if it is liked or not and only Disney can hire a company to do that because only Disney knows who the guests are. I expect they have done this and will continue to. Just like universal does with their customers.
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This is why I said "My" issue and not "The" issue. I understand and appreciate what you are saying, I just don't care for all of the extra planning and limitations in order to "maximize" my experience. Getting down to the brass tacks, the real reasons for MM+ are for data mining and crowd management. Its a long term plan which precludes them from having to increase capacity somewhat my better managing the capacity they currently have. I don't fault them for it, I just don't like it. It won't keep me from going, I suppose I just miss being able to do things off the cuff, which is not possible now in a lot of cases. Saying "just don't plan" is not an option when you want to maximize the amount of things you get to do. Yeah, times change - I spend my whole working life in technology, I'd like to get away from it somewhat for a week during the year :)
 
S

seascape

Well-Known Member
Glasgow said:
This is why I said "My" issue and not "The" issue. I understand and appreciate what you are saying, I just don't care for all of the extra planning and limitations in order to "maximize" my experience. Getting down to the brass tacks, the real reasons for MM+ are for data mining and crowd management. Its a long term plan which precludes them from having to increase capacity somewhat my better managing the capacity they currently have. I don't fault them for it, I just don't like it. It won't keep me from going, I suppose I just miss being able to do things off the cuff, which is not possible now in a lot of cases. Saying "just don't plan" is not an option when you want to maximize the amount of things you get to do. Yeah, times change - I spend my whole working life in technology, I'd like to get away from it somewhat for a week during the year :)
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I miss the days of spending summers at Marthas Vineyard watching a black and white TV and having a rotary phone and no Internet or online service. Can you believe presidents of major corporations used to take vacation and be almost impossible to reach. Somehow I think we may have been better off in the past but I do love technology.
 
Glasgow

Glasgow

Well-Known Member
seascape said:
I miss the days of spending summers at Marthas Vineyard watching a black and white TV and having a rotary phone and no Internet or online service. Can you believe presidents of major corporations used to take vacation and be almost impossible to reach. Somehow I think we may have been better off in the past but I do love technology.
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Its a means to an end, a conduit - people often forget that.

Anyway, back on topic - RFID for making my vacation better? Great. RFID for forcing me to make decisions I wouldn't otherwise make? Bad.
 
D

dadddio

Well-Known Member
Glasgow said:
Its a means to an end, a conduit - people often forget that.

Anyway, back on topic - RFID for making my vacation better? Great. RFID for forcing me to make decisions I wouldn't otherwise make? Bad.
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I am still failing to see how RF forces anyone to do anything different than before. The company knowing that I am in a store for X minutes doesn't change my behavior. The only way that it could change my behavior is positively, since knowing where I am will allow them to allocate their resources better and give me better service. In addition to this is how RF will allow for increased interactive experiences, which I see as a plus.
 
Glasgow

Glasgow

Well-Known Member
dadddio said:
I am still failing to see how RF forces anyone to do anything different than before. The company knowing that I am in a store for X minutes doesn't change my behavior. The only way that it could change my behavior is positively, since knowing where I am will allow them to allocate their resources better and give me better service. In addition to this is how RF will allow for increased interactive experiences, which I see as a plus.
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Of course, there are many positives such as being able to customize your holiday experience to just you and your family. The problem becomes when they force advertising on you, send you emails you wouldn't otherwise get, start cross checking your WDW habits with all of the other available information about you on the internet - the possibilities are endless.

Should WDW be allowed to screen your phone calls too? You're not doing anything wrong, why shouldn't they be privy to that as well? Where do you draw the line? That's the point - its not that they're going to start charging your credit card without you knowing, that would be an obvious impropriety. Its not just one thing, its the point that where does it all end? It's not obvious now where or if the line will be crossed.

All of the intentions will be marketed as being a positive, but the problem becomes when the usage starts to become for nefarious or immoral reasons - it won't be a matter of legality, it will become one of morality, like exists in the real world.

I don't mind Disney catering to me based on information they collect - that's not what I'm saying. Its not currently a problem and may likely never be an issue. All that's being said here is that eventually all of the information being collected could possibly be used in a manner not consistent with your idea of privacy, and at that point we'll all point back to the year that they introduced long range RFID .. lol. :)
 
networkpro

networkpro

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
Enough of the Tinfoil hat talk. If you care to watch the available information and digest it, you'd know that the initial long range RFID testing they are doing is for photography. You are on a ride, walk to a point, the automatic cameras snap and presto you're identified and the images are linked to your photo package.
 
D

dadddio

Well-Known Member
Glasgow said:
Of course, there are many positives such as being able to customize your holiday experience to just you and your family. The problem becomes when they force advertising on you, send you emails you wouldn't otherwise get, start cross checking your WDW habits with all of the other available information about you on the internet - the possibilities are endless.

Should WDW be allowed to screen your phone calls too? You're not doing anything wrong, why shouldn't they be privy to that as well? Where do you draw the line? That's the point - its not that they're going to start charging your credit card without you knowing, that would be an obvious impropriety. Its not just one thing, its the point that where does it all end? It's not obvious now where or if the line will be crossed.

All of the intentions will be marketed as being a positive, but the problem becomes when the usage starts to become for nefarious or immoral reasons - it won't be a matter of legality, it will become one of morality, like exists in the real world.

I don't mind Disney catering to me based on information they collect - that's not what I'm saying. Its not currently a problem and may likely never be an issue. All that's being said here is that eventually all of the information being collected could possibly be used in a manner not consistent with your idea of privacy, and at that point we'll all point back to the year that they introduced long range RFID .. lol. :)
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Don't forget that they could someday force you into the Disney Dungeon and make you assemble chotchkies for their premium guests to buy. We should definitely not allow them to know where you are on their property because of this unlikely distopian future.
 
S

seascape

Well-Known Member
Considering the rights we give up when flying to Orlando I think having Disney and or Universal or any other theme park track us is minimal. Does anyone here think their credit card company doesn't know more about you than your wife? And the feds know more about us than your bank.
 
D

dadddio

Well-Known Member
networkpro said:
Enough of the Tinfoil hat talk. If you care to watch the available information and digest it, you'd know that the initial long range RFID testing they are doing is for photography. You are on a ride, walk to a point, the automatic cameras snap and presto you're identified and the images are linked to your photo package.
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O Noes! They are forcing me to have the option of getting pictures of myself enjoying a ride!
 
John

John

Well-Known Member
Glasgow said:
This is why I said "My" issue and not "The" issue. I understand and appreciate what you are saying, I just don't care for all of the extra planning and limitations in order to "maximize" my experience. Getting down to the brass tacks, the real reasons for MM+ are for data mining and crowd management. Its a long term plan which precludes them from having to increase capacity somewhat my better managing the capacity they currently have. I don't fault them for it, I just don't like it. It won't keep me from going, I suppose I just miss being able to do things off the cuff, which is not possible now in a lot of cases. Saying "just don't plan" is not an option when you want to maximize the amount of things you get to do. Yeah, times change - I spend my whole working life in technology, I'd like to get away from it somewhat for a week during the year :)
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See, you said the same thing I did in just a different manner.....Maybe its me:devilish:
 
John

John

Well-Known Member
sporadic said:
Yes, and there is no personal information available without the ability to correlate the ID's against Disney's database. The actual RFID chip in the band is a NXP MIFARE DESFire EV1 - http://www.nxp.com/products/identif...ard_ics/mifare_smart_card_ics/mifare_desfire/. It contains two applications, the first being the Timelox AB stuff which is your room key. The second application is for your "Disney UID" if you will, to identify you for park entry, etc...

The 2.4GHz long range stuff works off a beacon type system. The xBR long range readers transmit a beacon on 2.482GHz every second to a common broadcast address. This packet will wake up the long range radio and trigger a response if asked / authenticated. Contents of beacon packet and weather it contains authentication or control messages is not fully known at this time as I haven't had a chance to capture a full handshake yet. Responses however should just contain your UID.

Dunno if that clears it up or just muddies it more, but the key thing is that the RFID and 2.4GHz long range stuff is two separate yet interconnected systems in the band. The RFID portion utilizing the NXP MIFARE DESFire EV1 and the 2.4GHz portion utilizing a Nordic nRF24LE1 which contains its own 8051 based CPU core.


EDIT: Also to note, all the xBR devices are classified as indoor industrial infrastructure equipment in the FCC cover letters. Haven't found any outdoor stuff yet which I thought was interesting. Maybe they're just using it indoors for rides and whatnot after all.
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Everyone who thinks this "muddies" this up raise your hand!...LOL.....I am just busting your coconuts....LOL I have no friggin idea what you said. I get the gist of it though.
 
John

John

Well-Known Member
Thinking about this overnight I come to the conclusion that some people just like a degree of anonymity. They don't want an AA say their name or their child's name. Don't want a character know who they are. Some may think its cool and that's fine as well. Some of us don't want to trust a large corporation with that much data. I know....I know.....the CC companies....the NSA.....the phone companies etc. etc. Don't trust them either, nor do I trust the government but that's a whole different discussion. The difference is that we up to this point trusted Disney. This gives us a reason not to trust them. It breaks a bond that we once had with them.....that right there is the difference between our experience with the real world vs Disney. Some of you don't see it that way....that's ok. The problem here is that both sides of the issue seem to want to convert the other side. I say....stop trying. It isn't going to happen. It leads to animosity. Drop the issue and let the thread die of natural causes.


P.S. For those who read my response to who is now my favorite poster here at the magic.... I deleted it. Just felt I didn't want to stoop to the same level. Someone drop Mr. Wonderful a note and tell him what I said. Maybe someone screen capped it as well. I am out of this thread......peace.
 

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