Lines at the FP+ entrances

[Buried20KLeague]

One solution is to move the initial point farther up the queue, closer to the merge point. People will stop trying to get into it without the proper time/date/attraction after having to wait in the line and then have to troop past dozens of angry guests to get out of the queue. It is a small step, but something to help ease the congestion OUTSIDE of the current entry point. Nobody ever likes getting that stare from a lot of people.

I think a lot of those folks going to the FP return line really don't know any better, for a variety of reasons.

The problem with moving the initial point furth up the question is what you would do with those that shouldn't be there. They'd be salmon swimming upstream.

 

[wdisney9000]

I am all in for new attractions, Disney has a much larger issue of infrastructure capacity that would be greatly stressed as they add more attractions. IMHO, the need for MM+ was born out of the need for additional methods to help softly manage the flow of guests through a park or parks. Look at all the resort infrastucture work going on to support the ever growing number of guests in and out of WDW, the new bus stops at MK, additional boat dock at TTC/MK to begin with.

Im confused, are you saying MM+ was needed before they build new attractions? If they built more attractions it would stress the parks if people didnt have an app? That cant be what your saying because ive read your posts and you are smarter than that. And are you giving them credit for building new bus stops and boat docks? Both were needed long ago.

 

[wdisney9000]

Not trying to defend the system. I really am not for or against it, having used it. However, the reason the line is now outside of FP lines is because of scanning the bands. Before u just had to wave ur ticket and u were good to go. U usually ended up waiting a few minutes inside the FP que before u ride. It now seems the "wait" so to speak is to get In the FP line, but once u r in, there is no wait in the FP que anymore. This is what I have experienced during our "test"

I agree that more of the wait is outside the FP entrance and once u get by that the wait is usually short. But my original point was that the wait outside FP entrance NEVER existed with legacy.

People keep pointing out that the wait outside of FP entrance is due to extra time in scanning the band or people not understanding the system. That doesnt excuse the fact that it is now a problem we never had to deal with before. It is a negative effect that was born with the new system. Just because people recognize the cause of it does not mean its ok.

 

[wdisney9000]

I think a lot of those folks going to the FP return line really don't know any better, for a variety of reasons.

The problem with moving the initial point furth up the question is what you would do with those that shouldn't be there. They'd be salmon swimming upstream.

Perhaps if they required people to have a physical paper slip that showed you had a FP it would work better and people would know that if they didnt have the paper slip at the entrance there is no way to continue. Oh wait.. they had that and it worked great but they scrapped it. Boom... Roasted

 

[thelookingglass]

Perhaps if they required people to have a physical paper slip that showed you had a FP it would work better and people would know that if they didnt have the paper slip at the entrance there is no way to continue. Oh wait.. they had that and it worked great but they scrapped it. Boom... Roasted

No, it didn't work great. Far from it. But yes, it worked a lot better than this.

 

[BeautifulTomorrow]

I understand that the process of scanning bands is taking longer than the CM glancing at a piece of paper. In reality, the paper system did not require guests to stop - cast would glance at the ticket without the guest even stopping. The bands require the guest to physically stop, align the wrist, and wait for green. Factor in a few misreads and other issues, and you have a considerably longer FP entry time per guest.

I work at the HM and can tell you that it does not take longer for people to scan bands or cards. What can hold up the line is if we have to deal with an issue like the person not having a fast pass/being too early or late, or if a party of 10 has one person stand at the podium and scan each card instead of each person holding their card and walking through, which is much faster.

 

[BeautifulTomorrow]

Also, it was easy under the old system to spot the issue--now, the machine doesn't say "10 minutes early" or "wristband misread" or "never actually had a Fastpass attached to this wristband." It's up to the CM to deduce this. In a hectic theme park environment. Often with guests whose first language is not English.

It actually does say if the person is early or late or has a fast pass for another attraction at that time. The worst is when it says no fast pass and the person swears they put a fast pass for that ride on it. And then some people are just confused and think if they have a ticket it is a fast pass. Mostly those non-English speakers like you said.

 

[BeautifulTomorrow]

Y

The scanner DOES say why the FP isn't working. Not sure why someone got the idea it doesn't.

I do agree that the CMs still have to deal with explaining why Mickey's head turned blue, and often to guests who don't easily understand. But I also saw that happen with paper FPs.

Disney needs to work on many kinks in this system, and one is explaining it better (and more quickly) to park guests, especially those using it same day who had no idea that it existed and maybe had never used paper FP either. I can imagine why the long kiosk lines are happening, as CMs have to explain FP+ over and over to each new user/group.

YES. Explaining the system is most of what you do. People don't understand how it works. I mean I don't even understand it entirely yet! Sometimes people will say someone at the kiosk said such and such and I'll have no idea what they're talking about!

 

[BeautifulTomorrow]

It definitely takes longer for the machine to scan the bands for each member of your party, then it does for the cast member to look at a piece of paper as you pass.

With the paper fast passes, you show the pass to the first cast member, then you have to present again at the end of the line. Does anyone know if you have to swipe your bands twice as well. And if not, what is stopping people from hopping over from the stand by que line?

You do have to scan twice.

 

[BeautifulTomorrow]

Yes, you have to scan twice... In my experience, sometimes the second CM will only require one from each party to scan a MB... This varies though...

They should make everyone scan because the second point is where it is actually redeemed.

 

[Lord_Vader]

Im confused, are you saying MM+ was needed before they build new attractions? If they built more attractions it would stress the parks if people didnt have an app? That cant be what your saying because ive read your posts and you are smarter than that. And are you giving them credit for building new bus stops and boat docks? Both were needed long ago.

I am saying upper management was most likely sold on the idea that it was needed, Iger is not a theme park guy and doesn't understand them. As a result the finance guys sold him a new shiny application that would not only support more guests in the parks at a time, it would also increase spend per guest spending.

I agee on the docks but if they would have expanded the monorail like they should have the bus stops would have been completely uneccesary but were sorely needed as a result.

 

[flynnibus]

I agree that more of the wait is outside the FP entrance and once u get by that the wait is usually short. But my original point was that the wait outside FP entrance NEVER existed with legacy.

With legacy.. there were relief valves available. If things got heavy... the #1 FP location would just glance at your tickets and not really look at them. They could be more precise.. or less.. to keep the line moving.

With the machine in play... they haven't incorporated those kinds of 'speed ups' where they could just wave people through to relive the queue pressure.

 

[wannab@dis]

I agree that more of the wait is outside the FP entrance and once u get by that the wait is usually short. But my original point was that the wait outside FP entrance NEVER existed with legacy.

People keep pointing out that the wait outside of FP entrance is due to extra time in scanning the band or people not understanding the system. That doesnt excuse the fact that it is now a problem we never had to deal with before. It is a negative effect that was born with the new system. Just because people recognize the cause of it does not mean its ok.

This is not accurate at all. I have seen and stood in lines outside the legacy FP entrances many times. Sometimes there were dozens of people waiting in line.

The waits may be longer now, but the idea that waits "NEVER existed," or a problem "we never had to deal with" or a something that was "born with the new system" is completely false.

 

[Fractal514]

I agree that more of the wait is outside the FP entrance and once u get by that the wait is usually short. But my original point was that the wait outside FP entrance NEVER existed with legacy.

People keep pointing out that the wait outside of FP entrance is due to extra time in scanning the band or people not understanding the system. That doesnt excuse the fact that it is now a problem we never had to deal with before. It is a negative effect that was born with the new system. Just because people recognize the cause of it does not mean its ok.

I'm sorry, but what, exactly, is the big deal? So you have to wait a few minutes to scan your band and then you get to skip the entire stand-by line and there is almost no wait at all at the other end of the line because they've weeded out everyone who shouldn't be there. I get that it isn't perfect and that it isn't what you were used to, but seriously, this seems like a petty complaint.

 

[Fractal514]

With legacy.. there were relief valves available. If things got heavy... the #1 FP location would just glance at your tickets and not really look at them. They could be more precise.. or less.. to keep the line moving.

With the machine in play... they haven't incorporated those kinds of 'speed ups' where they could just wave people through to relive the queue pressure.

So you mean, the new system is accurate and the old system allowed for people to not play by the rules. I think that this goes to the heart of the issue for some of us. I'll freely admit that I am a rules follower, I don't reuse mugs, I never used a FP outside of it's time window, and I like the new system. I recognize that isn't the way everyone is though.

 

[stevehousse]

I think if they did this it would speed everything up...

In Nov there were 2 lines that this happened at.

The entrance for FP was very backed up. They had just one family member scan a band at the first post, and then everyone scanned at the second. This sped the process up extremely quickly...I could definately see then doing this in the future and is a quick fix to the problem.

 

[flynnibus]

So you mean, the new system is accurate and the old system allowed for people to not play by the rules.

No - the relief value I described was readily available because it didn't really require Disney giving up control. You still had to hand your FP over at the second FP position and they could check it there (reality is tho.. they rarely checked it there.. because normally its the #1 position that does that screening).

By allowing the #1 position to wave people through, it didn't really make it a free for all.. just allowed them to keep the line moving.

With the current system, that flexibility isn't there yet. As Disney learns the best way to deal with rejects at the pole... the situation will improve. These are areas of experience that the company will learn over time. Practice and theory don't always align when dealing with the general population.

 

[Fractal514]

No - the relief value I described was readily available because it didn't really require Disney giving up control. You still had to hand your FP over at the second FP position and they could check it there (reality is tho.. they rarely checked it there.. because normally its the #1 position that does that screening).

By allowing the #1 position to wave people through, it didn't really make it a free for all.. just allowed them to keep the line moving.

With the current system, that flexibility isn't there yet. As Disney learns the best way to deal with rejects at the pole... the situation will improve. These are areas of experience that the company will learn over time. Practice and theory don't always align when dealing with the general population.

Come on, you just deflated your own argument by saying that the second person was rarely doing a good check. Also, if they were, wouldn't that just move the back-up to somewhere else in the line? The reason why the old system was perceived to work better was because of the people on this board who say they were fans of it used it to full advantage and it wasn't very precise. The new system is more widely used, less popular here, and precise to a fault. That's the difference.

I still don't understand why waiting a few minutes to be able to skip the entire line is in anyway unreasonable or a major inconvenience.

 

[flynnibus]

Come on, you just deflated your own argument by saying that the second person was rarely doing a good check

No, the change in practice was sound... if people do their job or not is something that every system depends on. The point was the CM had FLEXIBILITY without compromising the model. They had tools to be able to deal with variations in crowds. Be agile.. adapt.

Also, if they were, wouldn't that just move the back-up to somewhere else in the line?

No... because the topic here is CONGESTION MANAGEMENT.

The reason why the old system was perceived to work better was because the people who on this board claiming that were fans of it and used it to full advantage and it wasn't very precise. The new system is more widely used, less popular here, and precise to a fault. That's the difference.

Precise to a fault.. is kind of the point I was making. It lacks the flexibility needed to deal with the real world dynamics that are happening. Anyone who has designed things in a digital world is familiar with this... it's possible to be completely correct in design, and a complete failure in application because you were unable to deal with the natural variations that happen in the non-digital world. If you want a simple, yet completely practical example of this.. lookup switch bounce - http://www.pololu.com/docs/0J16/4

The world is not binary... industrial systems have to account for this as well and generally the more adaptive a system is, the better chance it can continue to operate at it's intended target.

here, FP+ is seeing huge spikes in return demand.. and is unable to adapt to bring the system back into normal operation quickly.

I still don't understand while wait a few minutes to be able to skip the entire line is in anyway unreasonable or a major inconvenience.

Because the new system is resulting in people having to wait longer... for the same perk.

It's like if I gave you $1 per day... but now, I make you sit there and wait 15mins before I give you that $1 per day. you're still getting a the same dollar per day... but the satisfaction of it is not the same.

 

[Fractal514]

It's like if I gave you $1 per day... but now, I make you sit there and wait 15mins before I give you that $1 per day. you're still getting a the same dollar per day... but the satisfaction of it is not the same.

And this gets to my main point. Yes, if you were getting $1 for free and now have to wait for it, you're satisfaction is lessened, but if you were getting nothing and now get the $1 your satisfaction is high. And I think that's what is REALLY going on. I think a lot more folks are using the system now and that this is what is causing the delays and such. I really would love to see some numbers though, I'm just going based on stories from those I've spoken to who have visited recently who never used FP before, but did use FP+ because it was pointed out to them as a perk they could use.