Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Chip Chipperson]

Which is it? If people don’t know it means they’re not planning the way everyone is claiming they love to do.

Nobody is claiming that everyone loves planning. Just the opposite in fact. The posters saying they prefer FP+ over G+ (myself included) have acknowledged that not everyone loved FP+. There's nothing contradictory about the post you quoted at all. My post was a response to the claim that Disney didn't specifically tell guests, "You better book your FP+ selections or you'll be stuck in li es all day." That can't be a criticism of FP+ but not G+ for the reasons mentioned in the post you quoted.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Nobody is claiming that everyone loves planning. Just the opposite in fact. The posters saying they prefer FP+ over G+ (myself included) have acknowledged that not everyone loved FP+. There's nothing contradictory about the post you quoted at all. My post was a response to the claim that Disney didn't specifically tell guests, "You better book your FP+ selections or you'll be stuck in li es all day." That can't be a criticism of FP+ but not G+ for the reasons mentioned in the post you quoted.

People have repeatedly scoffed at the idea that FastPass+ and the planning involved were not widely popular.

 

[LittleBuford]

People have repeatedly scoffed at the idea that FastPass+ and the planning involved were not widely popular.

I may have missed the posts in question, but I don’t recall any of my fellow FP+ fans scoffing at this idea. On the contrary, most of us (myself included) have acknowledged that many didn’t like the system, even if we did.

 

[James Alucobond]

Again, my post was a response to someone falsely claiming that using FP+ effectively required spreadsheets and online calendars. That's blatantly false.

Also, Disney still isn't telling guests, "You better buy Genie+ or you'll be stuck in miserable lines all day." They even offer a free substitute with plain old Genie. Do most of us on this board know that plain old Genie stinks? Sure. Does a family who doesn't spend time on message boards and blogs know that? Probably not. So that's better how?

How does Genie+ solve the problem of people who can't use technology? With FP+, you could book selections on the WDW website, on your phone, or at a kiosk in the park. Now, you have to use your phone, primarily while in the park (obviously the first one at 7 AM isn't done in the park). Yeah, that helps those people who are bad with technology so much!

I think maybe we're just talking about different things, or perhaps multiple posts are getting mixed together as we respond to one another? I'm not personally saying Genie+ is better or even good, and I hopefully haven't implied that over the past few pages. You're correct in saying that it fails to resolve myriad issues that carry over from when it was FastPass+.

What I'm trying to say but clearly failing at is that there are issues with both, but I feel that FP+ would be even more of a logistical nightmare right now (from Disney's side; not from the side of the few able to snag reservations) than it was previously. All of its flaws would be magnified given the current environment.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I may have missed the posts in question, but I don’t recall any of my fellow FP+ fans scoffing at this idea. On the contrary, most of us (myself included) have acknowledged that many didn’t like the system, even if we did.

You literally just tried to claim that the existence of the Unofficial Guide was proof that people needed to and liked the sort of planning that FastPass+ facilitated.

Here’s a claim that people prefer the planning.

Sure you are. WDW isn’t a typical theme park. It’s a major vacation destination that includes theme parks, water parks, themed resorts and entertainment venues. People visit for several days and spend tens of thousands of dollars. Many of them prefer to plan so they can make the most of their vacation and not miss the experiences they’re looking forward to. I don’t think you’re going to find too many fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants visitors there.

And another

Perhaps not the vast majority. But wdw vaca planning is def. NOT a niche. Have you seen the thousands of “influencers” on social media with planning “tips and tricks” in addition to the aforementioned sites?

edit: forgot to mention travel agencies mostly dedicated to planning peoples wdw and DL vacations.

this ain’t a niche man.

And another

Maybe it's just the area I'm in, but my intuition would be to say that a sizable percentage of Disney goers are major planners. If you look at the subset of the population who is almost neurotic about organizing, planning, and having good "systems", and the subset of the population who visits Disney World - yeah, I think there is likely some overlap there. I feel like the super chill types are probably off at music festivals on their vacation days.

 

[LittleBuford]

You literally just tried to claim that the existence of the Unofficial Guide was proof that people needed to and liked the sort of planning that FastPass+ facilitated.

My literal words (which are there for anyone interested enough to revisit) were:

I'm deeply sceptical of the notion that planning for a WDW trip is a novelty or something that wouldn't have benefitted guests in the good old days. The first Unofficial Guide to Walt Disney World was published back in 1985, complete with touring plans and a section entitled "Planning before you Leave Home". My first trip to WDW was in the early 1990s, when I was too young to plan anything and at the mercy of my parents, who didn't have a clue about the parks. Needless to say, we spent a lot of time queuing.

If you interpret that as a claim that everyone enjoyed planning, that's on you. My own post said nothing of the sort.

As I said, some of you are so doctrinaire on this issue that any middle ground is anathema to you. It's really not possible to have a productive exchange within such an unforgiving framework.

 

[LittleBuford]

It's simply not possible to deny that many disliked FP+ given the sheer number of posts in this forum, going back many years, expressing opposition to the system. I for one am not going to disregard what others are telling us about their views and experiences, even if that same courtesy isn't always extended to those of us who report having had positive experiences of FP+.

 

[lazyboy97o]

My literal words (which are there for anyone interested enough to revisit) were:


If you interpret that as a claim that everyone enjoyed planning, that's on you. My own post said nothing of the sort.

As I said, some of you are so doctrinaire on this issue that any middle ground is anathema to you. It's really not possible to have a productive exchange within such an unforgiving framework.

Middle ground of what?

 

[lazyboy97o]

It's simply not possible to deny that many disliked FP+ given the sheer number of posts in this forum, going back many years, expressing opposition to the system. I for one am not going to disregard what others are telling us about their views and experiences, even if that same courtesy isn't always extended to those of us who report having had positive experiences of FP+.

Nobody has denied that some like FastPass+.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Nobody has denied that some like FastPass+.

So it's fair to say that some people liked FP+, some hated it, some were neutral about it, and none of us knows the actual percentages for any of those categories.

 

[LittleBuford]

Nobody has denied that some like FastPass+.

No, but we fans of FP+ have been told multiple times that the benefits we saw from it were illusory, that our positive experiences were extremely atypical, and that we must have expended inordinate amounts of time, energy, and specialised knowledge to gain anything out of the system. The middle ground lies in accepting that there are a multiplicity of tastes, experiences, and opinions out there and that those of us who report having routinely and without difficulty enjoyed using FP+ are not some tiny fringe with a rare tolerance for arcane line-skipping systems.

 

[James Alucobond]

No, but we fans of FP+ have been told multiple times that the benefits we saw from it were illusory, that our positive experiences were extremely atypical, and that we must have expended inordinate amounts of time, energy, and specialised knowledge to gain anything out of the system. The middle ground lies in accepting that there are a multiplicity of tastes, experiences, and opinions out there and that those of us who report having routinely and without difficulty enjoyed using FP+ are not some tiny fringe with a rare tolerance for arcane line-skipping systems.

While some have certainly made hyperbolic generalizations of the sort you listed, I think most have simply pointed out that FP+ favors a specific type of guest, not that positive experiences with the service were necessarily atypical for those who engaged with it, though I admittedly have said that I'm one who didn't really enjoy it in spite of being a person who usually likes planning. Regardless, I see very few implications that G+ is actually superior from a customer satisfaction standpoint since it's all just a shell game with too few shells to hide the marbles. Nevertheless, G+ allows Disney to play the same shell game more accurately at the moment as there's no way to make good predictions with regard to capacity and staffing three months into the future at this time.

 

[lazyboy97o]

So it's fair to say that some people liked FP+, some hated it, some were neutral about it, and none of us knows the actual percentages for any of those categories.

It is not just an unknown.

Even before the pandemic Disney was looking to do away with FastPass+. Why would they undo a huge financial investment if it was working well for even a slight majority of guests?

No, but we fans of FP+ have been told multiple times that the benefits we saw from it were illusory, that our positive experiences were extremely atypical, and that we must have expended inordinate amounts of time, energy, and specialised knowledge to gain anything out of the system. The middle ground lies in accepting that there are a multiplicity of tastes, experiences, and opinions out there and that those of us who report having routinely and without difficulty enjoyed using FP+ are not some tiny fringe with a rare tolerance for arcane line-skipping systems.

Why would it be bad if you were some tiny fringe? That’s not a negative.

 

[LittleBuford]

While some have certainly made hyperbolic generalizations of the sort you listed, I think most have simply pointed out that FP+ favors a specific type of guest, not that positive experiences with the service were necessarily atypical for those who engaged with it, though I admittedly have said that I'm one who didn't really enjoy it in spite of being a person who usually likes planning. Regardless, I see very few implications that G+ is actually superior from a customer satisfaction standpoint since it's all just a shell game with too few shells to hide the marbles. Nevertheless, G+ allows Disney to play the same shell game more accurately at the moment as there's currently no way to make good predictions with regard to capacity and staffing three months into the future at this time.

I very much appreciate this measured and civil response. As to what the future holds, I just hope Disney does something to fix this current mess.

Did @wdwmagic ever follow-up with the update he tantalisingly promised us a few days ago?

 

[Parker in NYC]

Did @wdwmagic ever follow-up with the update he tantalisingly promised us a few days ago?

Nope. I’m on tenterhooks.

 

[pdude81]

It is not just an unknown.

Even before the pandemic Disney was looking to do away with FastPass+. Why would they undo a huge financial investment if it was working well for even a slight majority of guests?


Why would it be bad if you were some tiny fringe? That’s not a negative.

Whether or not it was working for guests, I thought we've gotten some indications that the data they gleaned from the underlying system was suspect, or at least not what they were looking for. Also I hear on the radio constantly about microtargeting advertising to specific customers based on geolocation and even inside competitors stores. I'd assume the data collection aspect and being able to suggest choices and record whether or not those suggestions are followed would be very valuable to the company.

People complain about whatever the worst (or least good in some cases) part of their trip was. In some cases the worst part of the trip was having to work for it 60 days early, so that they could just enjoy the flow on vacation. For me I'd rather have just chilled once I got there, knowing I already planned out my 3 fastpasses and my decision engine should anything else I like pop up. Others may have been annoyed that their relaxing vacation required so much work. And we're both right.

 

[mikejs78]

Even before the pandemic Disney was looking to do away with FastPass+. Why would they undo a huge financial investment if it was working well for even a slight majority of guests?

I don't think thats the case. All we know is that before the pandemic they were planning on *charging* for FP.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

It is not just an unknown.

Even before the pandemic Disney was looking to do away with FastPass+. Why would they undo a huge financial investment if it was working well for even a slight majority of guests?


Why would it be bad if you were some tiny fringe? That’s not a negative.

It is unknown, unless you have access to internal data from guest surveys.

As for why they would change it? They monetized it and created a system that is virtually identical for both coasts, which reduces operating costs since they no longer have 2 separate systems to maintain. More money in and less money out. It's possible that guest surveys played a role, but it's also possible that they played no role at all.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Whether or not it was working for guests, I thought we've gotten some indications that the data they gleaned from the underlying system was suspect, or at least not what they were looking for. Also I hear on the radio constantly about microtargeting advertising to specific customers based on geolocation and even inside competitors stores. I'd assume the data collection aspect and being able to suggest choices and record whether or not those suggestions are followed would be very valuable to the company.

The data mining aspects of NextGen pretty much died before ever being deployed. It definitely could have been big money for a Disney but it was also a legal and publicity nightmare.

Disney was hoping to achieve efficiency through guest planning. In terms of guests the idea was to push people into excess capacity instead of adding capacity while using “line skipping” to offset satisfaction lost from crowding. Staffing and operations were to be more efficient by having just the right amount based on people’s plans. It seems counter-intuitive but those two goals are incompatible because you end up in a point where there is an inverse correlation and more reservations requires more excess slack capacity.

 

[lazyboy97o]

As for why they would change it? They monetized it and created a system that is virtually identical for both coasts, which reduces operating costs since they no longer have 2 separate systems to maintain. More money in and less money out. It's possible that guest surveys played a role, but it's also possible that they played no role at all.

NextGen was supposed to be deployed at every Disney operated resort and they tried to sell the Oriental Land Company on it as well. Nobody else wanted it. MaxPass was a derivative of the work done for FastPass+. If it was just about minimizing costs and monetizing then it would have been less work to stick to the original plan and just charge for FastPass+.