Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Casper Gutman]

Line-skipping systems work every where else. I would say all parks were designed for standby.

Which other parks have the crowd-to-capacity ratio of Disney? Which have a line-skipping system that is as widely utilized as Disney, in part because Disney has trained people to pre-plan, in part because of the unique cultural and economic dimensions of a “Disney vacation.”

 

[mikejs78]

What “operational challenges” are you positing as having prevented a supposedly massively popular system from being introduced in other parks.

Okay. For the umpteenth time, I have never claimed that FP+ was "massively popular". I've nearly said, over and over again, that we don't have enough evidence to know whether it was popular or unpopular. Claiming otherwise is hubris unless you personally have some insider information, or you can point to specific posts from insiders that say that it was massively popular or unpopular.

I'm open to the idea that it was massively unpopular, I just want to see real evidence and not speculation. All I can say is that for me at least, it was far preferable to the current system that we have.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Okay. For the umpteenth time, I have never claimed that FP+ was "massively popular". I've nearly said, over and over again, that we don't have enough evidence to know whether it was popular or unpopular. Claiming otherwise is hubris.

Discussing something on an obscure message board based on available evidence is NOT hubris. Are we now supposed to limit discussion of all WDW topics regarding which we don’t have testimony under oath from the executives directly involved? Because that will make for a very quiet board.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Why is there this constant impulse to try and frame criticism of FastPass+ as a moral judgement?

Because I was responding directly to a post that framed the argument as "optimal park operations" vs. "FP+ worked for me." There was an implication of selfishness on the part of the people preferring FP+ over G+.

 

[pdude81]

Genie was announced in the summer of 2019. There is really no question as to whether or not fastpass plus was going away. They were able to use the fastpass fields already in existence because they were going to be transitioning to something else anyway and it would allow them to make far fewer modifications to code for implementation of park reservations given they weren't going to reopen with FP+. This is not direct knowledge on my part. It's common sense.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Discussing something on an obscure message board based on available evidence is NOT hubris. Are we now supposed to limit discussion of all WDW topics regarding which we don’t have testimony under oath from the executives directly involved? Because that will make for a very quiet board.

Discussing it isn't hubris. Claiming that your opinion is fact based on statistics none of have access to is. You can say, "I think FP+ was unpopular because of X,Y, and Z." Acting like your opinion is fact and any other opinion is just a failure to see the bigger picture is hubris.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Because I was responding directly to a post that framed the argument as "optimal park operations" vs. "FP+ worked for me." There was an implication of selfishness on the part of the people preferring FP+ over G+.

There is absolutely no moral judgement in that comparison. It’s a matter of a discussion of how a system works vs a discussion of individual personal experiences. It’s as though some posters want to have a general discussion of how D+ operates, how it produces, releases, and promotes shows, while another group keeps pulling the conversation back to the fact that they really like The Bad Batch and not focusing on that is a personal insult.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Discussing it isn't hubris. Claiming that your opinion is fact based on statistics none of have access to is. You can say, "I think FP+ was unpopular because of X,Y, and Z." Acting like your opinion is fact and any other opinion is just a failure to see the bigger picture is hubris.

How about we all assume that what is discussed on this WDW message board is, unless otherwise stipulated, opinion? And that constantly shouting, “Well, that’s just your opinion, man,” at each other won’t result in particularly scintillating conversation?

 

[LittleBuford]

The folks who describe its as a “dreadful scourge” are almost always looking at it from an overall operational standpoint - what did it do to the way the park works, and how did it effect the AVERAGE guest experience - whereas you and the other advocates almost always pull it back to a strictly personal level.

Also, if one person says “I was always able to get the Passes I wanted, even during the busy season for last minute trips,” while another says, “I could never book the more popular rides, even several weeks out in the low season,” some degree of clouded memory is taking place on one (or both) parts.

And a note from upthread - you frequently reply to claims that standby is the only system that really works in the parks as constructed by telling the story of your first, miserable visit to WDW during the standby years. But as you explain, you went during the most crowded period and did no preparation. I’d point out that had you taken the same trip, at the most crowded period and with no advance planning, during the FP+ era, your experience would have been just as, if not more, miserable. If there is one indisputable point, it is that FP+ made things worse for those who did no advance planning at all.

I've never claimed to speak for "the AVERAGE guest experience", in part because I don't and can't claim to speak for others and in part because I, along with @Chi84, am among those selfish people who simply went about their own business and guiltlessly used FP+ without worrying about wider park operations. Again, I'm not sure what you would have had me do then or have me do now. If you want me to acknowledge that FP+ was, all in all, a bad thing for the parks and for guests, what's the point exactly? This is a thread for discussing ride-skipping systems, not for theorising about how things ought to be in a world of boundless capacity and standby lines only.

 

[gerarar]

When the lighting lane sign is better themed than the standby sign. In this case, the LL sign is better aged and has rusty screws.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

How about we all assume that what is discussed on this WDW message board is, unless otherwise stipulated, opinion? And that constantly shouting, “Well, that’s just your opinion, man,” at each other won’t result in particularly scintillating conversation?

I agree. Where I take issue is others claiming that their opinions are actually fact. None of us knows for certain. We might feel reasonably sure, but we just don't know. All I know for certain is that I like FP+ much better than G+ for the reasons I've stated and that WDW needs more attractions with high capacity to keep lines under control. I think they need to tweak G+ in order to improve it - both to increase guest satisfaction and to not encourage resort guest to find cheaper rooms off property. I believe that as both a guest and a (teeny tiny) shareholder. The only thing I can go by is my experience as an AP staying on property. Maybe Disney execs have information that tells them that they don't need to worry about bad experiences like mine, but I think they'd be fools in the long run to ignore them.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

There is absolutely no moral judgement in that comparison. It’s a matter of a discussion of how a system works vs a discussion of individual personal experiences. It’s as though some posters want to have a general discussion of how D+ operates, how it produces, releases, and promotes shows, while another group keeps pulling the conversation back to the fact that they really like The Bad Batch and not focusing on that is a personal insult.

If I misjudged your comment then I apologize. Tone can be missed when reading comments, but it certainly wouldn't be the first time someone on this board made morality-based arguments about guests utilizing or liking a product offered at WDW (the Boo Bash thread comes to mind). If that's not what you were implying then I can admit that I misunderstood.

 

[mikejs78]

How about we all assume that what is discussed on this WDW message board is, unless otherwise stipulated, opinion? And that constantly shouting, “Well, that’s just your opinion, man,” at each other won’t result in particularly scintillating conversation?

This whole discussion began because another poster said that the fact that FP+ was wildly unpopular was not opinion, it was fact.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Because I was responding directly to a post that framed the argument as "optimal park operations" vs. "FP+ worked for me." There was an implication of selfishness on the part of the people preferring FP+ over G+.

It’s not, which has been stated repeatedly. Nobody expects people to think about the wider operations on their vacation.

Say there is an intersection you drive through every day. It’s only a two way stop sign. The county had planned for the road you take to be the major avenue through new development but it never worked out. All of the development continued on the cross road and traffic built up there. One day, much to your annoyance, there is now a stop light and instead of driving through you always seemed to get stopped. You’re not a bad person because you never thought about the traffic patterns at the intersection. You’re not a bad person for being annoyed at having to stop. You’re not a bad person for wishing it stayed in its old configuration. It also entirely possible that when you drove through was at a time when that was the dominant flow of traffic so you never had experience of people backed up trying to turn or cross. Pointing out that the intersection wasn’t a great experience for everyone isn’t an attack but any discussion of how the intersection can’t just be about personal experience.

 

[G00fyDad]

FP+ worked like a dream for my family. We'd get the 3 FP+ options booked ahead of our trip. Then we'd plan our day around riding as much as we could in the morning before the crowds slammed into the park like a snowplow hitting a mailbox, going to lunch around 11:30am, and then riding what we could throughout the rest of the day while hitting those three FP+ rides mixed in.

In my opinion this new G$ system sucks.

 

[Jrb1979]

Which other parks have the crowd-to-capacity ratio of Disney? Which have a line-skipping system that is as widely utilized as Disney, in part because Disney has trained people to pre-plan, in part because of the unique cultural and economic dimensions of a “Disney vacation.”

That's the problem with FP+ and Genie+, letting everyone have it.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

It’s not, which has been stated repeatedly. Nobody expects people to think about the wider operations on their vacation.

Say there is an intersection you drive through every day. It’s only a two way stop sign. The county had planned for the road you take to be the major avenue through new development but it never worked out. All of the development continued on the cross road and traffic built up there. One day, much to your annoyance, there is now a stop light and instead of driving through you always seemed to get stopped. You’re not a bad person because you never thought about the traffic patterns at the intersection. You’re not a bad person for being annoyed at having to stop. You’re not a bad person for wishing it stayed in its old configuration. It also entirely possible that when you drove through was at a time when that was the dominant flow of traffic so you never had experience of people backed up trying to turn or cross. Pointing out that the intersection wasn’t a great experience for everyone isn’t an attack but any discussion of how the intersection can’t just be about personal experience.

I get that. But I don't see G+ solving the problem. They replaced the 2-way Stop signs with a flashing yellow light and put a toll booth at the turn lane.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I get that. But I don't see G+ solving the problem. They replaced the 2-way Stop signs with a flashing yellow light and put a toll booth at the turn lane.

I genuinely don’t think anyone on these boards is advocating for or endorsing Genie.

My own personal preference is standby only.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I get that. But I don't see G+ solving the problem. They replaced the 2-way Stop signs with a flashing yellow light and put a toll booth at the turn lane.

People keep saying we have to be realistic, that talking about the need for more capacity is unrealistic and the focus needs to be on the situation that actually exists. Genie+ is just that with all of the problems of a virtual queue system exacerbated due to current operating conditions.

 

[pdude81]

People keep saying we have to be realistic, that talking about the need for more capacity is unrealistic and the focus needs to be on the situation that actually exists. Genie+ is just that with all of the problems of a virtual queue system exacerbated due to current operating conditions.

Right. Genie+ is managing the problem while they hopefully start trying to actually solve it. Also it gives incentive to adding more rides as that would allow for selling more tickets AND LL passes.