Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Chip Chipperson]

Planning, or more specifically hyper-planning everything out months in advance is difficult to communicate if you're Disney, and difficult to understand if you're a guest. It shouldn't take a calendar or spreadsheet to figure out what you are going to do for the day.

I think there is a bias, among people here specifically, that see the planning as part of the fun, but I don't think that's normal. I know it's just as anecdotal as everyone else's opinion now, but I think Disney was trying to reduce the burden of planning because the majority of their guests are still frustrated by it. I would think that the worry on Disney's part here, is that the people used to hyper-planning won't be around forever, and it's too complicated to pick up for potential new guests. Eventually years down the road that could hurt their image/attendance

What isn't an opinion is that Disney is definitely trying to curb the need for planning. Certainly the reasons why are still up for debate.

I loved FP+ and never needed calendars and spreadsheets to plan what park we we make our FP+ selections in each day. I'm sure there are super-organized people who did that, but it was far from necessary. We just picked a park for each day and made our choices (often in the car on the way to work since our arrivals on Sunday or Monday always gave us a weekday for our 60-day window). Without being any sort of expert (I didn't post here or on any other message board at the time and didn't follow vloggers, either) I was able to grab SDMT, Slinky, and pretty much anything else we wanted. We only ever did 4 or 5 nights per visit so it's not like we had some huge advantage by staying for a week or longer, either. People act like you needed a PhD to figure out the FP+ system when it was really pretty simple. Disney sent e-mails and physical mail telling you exactly what dates you could book your dining and FP+ selections. If someone couldn't keep track of that then they're seriously disorganized and there's no way someone that much of a mess is suddenly finding it simpler to purchase G+ every morning for their entire party in time to book their first choice at 7:00 AND understanding the rules about when you can book additional selections. If FP+ was so hard to understand, then I suggest going back and re-reading this thread from the beginning and see how confusing it was to people when it was announced. Disney didn't exactly get an A+ for clarity in their announcement (or anything they've said about it since, really).

 

[lazyboy97o]

Both formats require adequate capacity. LL selections for popular rides sell out in minutes because people know that if they don't make them their first selection then they won't get it at all unless they get lucky and someone else cancels their LL selection later.

With virtual queues you really end up needing not just adequate capacity, but excess capacity. And this is not just attraction capacity but also retail and dining capacity. The more people you have using the virtual queues the more excess near instantaneous capacity you need to have available. This is the problem that Volcano Bay slammed right into because everyone uses the virtual queue system. While some people may have used FastPass+ to sleep in, visit resorts and then hit the park for a few hours to use their ride and dining reservations, that’s not how most people visit the parks. The design day for a major theme park like the Disney parks is going to be in the range of 10 hours, not five hours. People using a virtual queue overwhelmingly are still occupying some physical space somewhere in the park and so you need someplace to put them. The park wants them in retail and dining venues while people themselves will tend towards using the time for other attractions. Water parks have the luxury of laying around being considered part of the experience but it’s not really part of the theme park experience (cue the “But I love to people watch.” replies). Placing additional people in walkways just to meander or people watch also contributes to the sense of crowding. Disney could easily solve the issue of Lightning Lanes selling out by adding more inventory but then they would just create another problem because there is not enough room to put those extra people somewhere.

 

[James Alucobond]

I think there is a bias, among people here specifically, that see the planning as part of the fun, but I don't think that's normal.

I think wanting to plan and enjoying doing so is normal, at least for certain types of people. Especially for those who've been before, it can be fun to research new experiences you haven't had previously and plan out how and when you'll tackle them. What isn't normal is being put in a position where you feel like you absolutely need FastPass to make that happen.

If someone couldn't keep track of that then they're seriously disorganized and there's no way someone that much of a mess is suddenly finding it simpler to purchase G+ every morning for their entire party in time to book their first choice at 7:00 AND understanding the rules about when you can book additional selections.

The fact that people who don't book attractions months ahead of time are viewed as "seriously disorganized" and somehow deserving of their fate as they bake in the standby queue (if there even is one) is part of the problem.

 

[Hakunamatata]

80 minute posted wait for Peter Pan today was 25.

 

[lazyboy97o]

If FP+ was so hard to understand, then I suggest going back and re-reading this thread from the beginning and see how confusing it was to people when it was announced. Disney didn't exactly get an A+ for clarity in their announcement (or anything they've said about it since, really).

The same was true of FastPass+. Up until the parks closed people were still coming here asking for help figuring everything out.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

With virtual queues you really end up needing not just adequate capacity, but excess capacity. And this is not just attraction capacity but also retail and dining capacity. The more people you have using the virtual queues the more excess near instantaneous capacity you need to have available. This is the problem that Volcano Bay slammed right into because everyone uses the virtual queue system. While some people may have used FastPass+ to sleep in, visit resorts and then hit the park for a few hours to use their ride and dining reservations, that’s not how most people visit the parks. The design day for a major theme park like the Disney parks is going to be in the range of 10 hours, not five hours. People using a virtual queue overwhelmingly are still occupying some physical space somewhere in the park and so you need someplace to put them. The park wants them in retail and dining venues while people themselves will tend towards using the time for other attractions. Water parks have the luxury of laying around being considered part of the experience but it’s not really part of the theme park experience (cue the “But I love to people watch.” replies). Placing additional people in walkways just to meander or people watch also contributes to the sense of crowding. Disney could easily solve the issue of Lightning Lanes selling out by adding more inventory but then they would just create another problem because there is not enough room to put those extra people somewhere.

G+ is a virtual queue, too. You can wake up at 7:00 and book a LL for the afternoon and then book another ride 2 hours. It's possible for you to stack 3 LLs through G+ and hold an ILL selection at the same time. That's not any better for capacity issues than limiting everyone to 3 FP+ until they've used all 3. I agree that they need to add capacity at WDW through new rides and entertainment to help alleviate the issue, but I don't see how G+ solves any problems that existed with FP+. It just takes more money from guests and delivers a product that is inferior. I can't even say that it's equal to FP+ (let alone better) because it penalizes AP holders even if staying on-site and penalizes people who like to sleep in on vacation. There's obviously never going to be a one-size-fits-all solution that pleases 100% of the people, but I don't see how this service benefits anyone - especially if it ends up driving guests to stay off-site since then it won't even benefit Disney since lost hotel rental revenue would be greater than the G+ revenue gained from that same party.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

The same was true of FastPass+. Up until the parks closed people were still coming here asking for help figuring everything out.

It wasn't nearly as confusing as the Genie, Genie+, Lightning Lane, Individual Attraction Selections, only one ride at a time (but Individual Attraction Selections could be purchased right away, but you're limited to 2 per day and no repeats,a nd they don't count as your 1 LL choice if you also buy G+), and if you're G+ LL selection is more than 2 hours away then you can book another one, but you don't have to wait 2 hours if your return time is sooner. There's a difference between a system like FP+ where guests using it for the first time might need some help vs. this mess that saw even seasoned WDW guests scratching their heads trying to make sense of it all to the point that Mister Penguin had to make a thread to try to explain it all because Disney failed at doing that themselves (and updating it each time new information was released or something changed). Also, FP+ was free with your paid admission. G+ is this much of a mess and they're charging $15/person to use it. That's inexcusable.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

I think wanting to plan and enjoying doing so is normal, at least for certain types of people. Especially for those who've been before, it can be fun to research new experiences you haven't had previously and plan out how and when you'll tackle them. What isn't normal is being put in a position where you feel like you absolutely need FastPass to make that happen.


The fact that people who don't book attractions months ahead of time are viewed as "seriously disorganized" and somehow deserving of their fate as they bake in the standby queue (if there even is one) is part of the problem.

That's not even close to what I said. I was responding to the alleged need for calendars and spreadsheets that another poster claimed were necessary to use FP+ successfully. If Disney is sending you multiple communications via e-mail and regular mail telling you when you can book your FP+ selections and you still don't know when you can book your FP+ selections, then you are disorganized - or didn't bother reading what they sent, which isn't a flaw with FP+ any more than someone not reading the due date on a credit card bill is the fault of the bank.

 

[lazyboy97o]

G+ is a virtual queue, too. You can wake up at 7:00 and book a LL for the afternoon and then book another ride 2 hours. It's possible for you to stack 3 LLs through G+ and hold an ILL selection at the same time. That's not any better for capacity issues than limiting everyone to 3 FP+ until they've used all 3. I agree that they need to add capacity at WDW through new rides and entertainment to help alleviate the issue, but I don't see how G+ solves any problems that existed with FP+. It just takes more money from guests and delivers a product that is inferior. I can't even say that it's equal to FP+ (let alone better) because it penalizes AP holders even if staying on-site and penalizes people who like to sleep in on vacation. There's obviously never going to be a one-size-fits-all solution that pleases 100% of the people, but I don't see how this service benefits anyone - especially if it ends up driving guests to stay off-site since then it won't even benefit Disney since lost hotel rental revenue would be greater than the G+ revenue gained from that same party.

The lack of Lightning Lane availability in Genie+ has nothing to do with the system itself. Disney could increase the Lightning Lane allotments. They don’t because they can’t handle the extra people holding virtual spaces. It’s better for capacity issues because it can be controlled more immediately. Three months ago plenty of people thought things would be very different and if Disney had allocated reservations on the assumption that they would be back to full operations or even just closer they would be in trouble because they overbooked the system.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

The lack of Lightning Lane availability in Genie+ has nothing to do with the system itself. Disney could increase the Lightning Lane allotments. They don’t because they can’t handle the extra people holding virtual spaces. It’s better for capacity issues because it can be controlled more immediately. Three months ago plenty of people thought things would be very different and if Disney had allocated reservations on the assumption that they would be back to full operations or even just closer they would be in trouble because they overbooked the system.

So they're both a form of a virtual queue system that don't solve the capacity issue. We agree on that point. One was free and one is an upcharge that seemingly runs out of slots faster than the free one did. And now we have queues spilling out into walkways even though WDW stopped with the 6-foot distancing markers before G+ went live. So if they're limiting the number of LL slots compared to G+, they're doing so in spite of the fact that so many rides (particularly the newer ones) have queues designed for certain capacity levels for Standby and FP+/LL that are now inadequate - and people who don't spend time reading boards like this one buy G+ thinking that there will be similar capacity for G+ LLs as there was for FP+ (and, theoretically, more opportunities for them to utilize the line-skipping since fewer guests will pay for G+ than the free FP+) only to find that slots are gone just as fast if not faster - and they get to experience that frustration every day instead of just once. And if you're an AP with a resort reservation, you're now at a disadvantage compared to every other type of guest regardless of whether they are staying on-site or not because you can't even begin purchasing G+ until the exact moment that everyone else can make their first selection. I don't see how that's better.

 

[James Alucobond]

If Disney is sending you multiple communications via e-mail and regular mail telling you when you can book your FP+ selections and you still don't know when you can book your FP+ selections, then you are disorganized - or didn't bother reading what they sent, which isn't a flaw with FP+ any more than someone not reading the due date on a credit card bill is the fault of the bank.

I went back and re-read communications from Disney from my last trip. In everything that I could find, the nudges regarding FastPass and reservations in general seemed gentle. They tell you FastPass can help maximize your time, not that it's essential if you want to wait less than 2 hours for several of the headlining attractions. I received zero communications about boarding groups, so I would have known nothing about them without doing independent research. The messages seemed to be designed around getting guests to download the MDE app, and if I were disinclined to do so, I wouldn't have any of the additional context contained therein.

Your credit card analogy is faulty because there's a clear cause-effect relationship with implicit responsibility on the part of the card holder. If I borrow money using the card, I will have to pay it back later. When I have to pay it back is a question I know to ask. FP+, by contrast, was billed as a "bonus" of your stay that you were free to utilize if you wanted, not an essential part of your vacation. The negative result of not engaging with the system was not clearly outlined (e.g. that capacity would be severely limited for a number of desirable attractions). Given the fact that FastPass+ represented a fairly unique paradigm within the industry, I wouldn't see it as lazy or disorganized for someone to ignore it, believing it to be irrelevant based on past experiences (even past experiences at Disney World itself).

There's also a not insignificant contingent of people who have real issues with technology and will never interface with MDE because they simply find it too great a hurdle to overcome. I wouldn't consider that disorganization either, just a skills gap that's often generational.

 

[danv3]

80 minute posted wait for Peter Pan today was 25.

Weird. Almost like Disney is intentionally inflating posted standby wait times.

 

[flynnibus]

Leaving aside conflating issues, I am not sure there is any value, or ability to compare what was taking place or the business model in the 1980's and now. I mean we are talking about a time difference of 40 years. Would you really compare a business's operations and offerings from the 1940's to the 1980's? Times change, trends change, and business operations change. I don't know of any company that offers comparable services, for comparable costs, over the course of a 40 year period. So while I think its fair to say you may like the way it was done better in the 80's I don't think that there can be a reasonable expectation that any company would go back to how things were done (and I mean both from a perspective of implementation/technology and theme/mission statement.)

the poster claimed planning like we are discussing now has always been part of the experience and cited the unofficial guide’s existence as proof.

planning to visit the parks back in the 80s looks nothing like a Fp+ 180day ADR trip of 2019.

the poster was wrong and ill informed.

it has nothing to do with preferences or 40yr gaps. The assumption was wrong.

 

[Chi84]

the poster claimed planning like we are discussing now has always been part of the experience and cited the unofficial guide’s existence as proof.

planning to visit the parks back in the 80s looks nothing like a Fp+ 180day ADR trip of 2019.

the poster was wrong and ill informed.

it has nothing to do with preferences or 40yr gaps. The assumption was wrong.

Well there’s certainly much more to do there now so the planning would naturally increase also. Less to plan when there are fewer choices. As far as calling the poster wrong and ill-informed, the same can be said about some of your statements concerning FP+ so why start that kind of rudeness here?

 

[flynnibus]

Well there’s certainly much more to do there now so the planning would naturally increase also. Less to plan when there are fewer choices.

Just read back a page or two where people are saying disney is trying to force them to stay longer in the parks…. Based solely on availability of a line skip.

Think about that some more and reconsider if its really just about number of things to do… people are deciding to be in a park based on a line skip!

and when you compare the attraction list for a park like mk and epcot… they haven’t grown that much at all. Its people are trying to stuff more and more into their trip… gotta do it all!

 

[lazyboy97o]

So they're both a form of a virtual queue system that don't solve the capacity issue. We agree on that point. One was free and one is an upcharge that seemingly runs out of slots faster than the free one did. And now we have queues spilling out into walkways even though WDW stopped with the 6-foot distancing markers before G+ went live. So if they're limiting the number of LL slots compared to G+, they're doing so in spite of the fact that so many rides (particularly the newer ones) have queues designed for certain capacity levels for Standby and FP+/LL that are now inadequate - and people who don't spend time reading boards like this one buy G+ thinking that there will be similar capacity for G+ LLs as there was for FP+ (and, theoretically, more opportunities for them to utilize the line-skipping since fewer guests will pay for G+ than the free FP+) only to find that slots are gone just as fast if not faster - and they get to experience that frustration every day instead of just once. And if you're an AP with a resort reservation, you're now at a disadvantage compared to every other type of guest regardless of whether they are staying on-site or not because you can't even begin purchasing G+ until the exact moment that everyone else can make their first selection. I don't see how that's better.

That they are both virtual queues is why the issues of availability are not unique to Genie+, the same issues would apply to FastPass+ as well.

Queue size actually increases with greater throughput. If you are putting through 1,000 people per hour then you need 667 linear feet of queue at 2’-0” per person for a 20 minute line ([1,000 people/hour / 0.33 hour] * 2 ft/person) . If you increase that throughput to 2,000 then you increase that length 1334 linear feet. The stand-by lines are spilling out of their queue space because more throughput has been allocated to stand-by. This is being done in spite of queues being designed for the old ratios because you need to put the virtual queuers somewhere while they are virtual queuing and that capacity remain restricted.

Everyone keeps saying we have to deal with the reality of the present and the reality of the present is still limited offerings, reduced capacity and closed venues. If Disney was allowing booking in advance they would still have to drastically limit availability to ensure they don’t overbook. I haven’t verified it, but there were some reports of the Christmas Parade Lightning Lanes being overbooked today and Disney having to cancel some of them on people. Would it be better if the FastPass+ selection you made a month ago was cancelled shortly before your visit or the day of your visit? They can’t offer you an anytime FastPass+ because the point is to reduce the number of people holding a virtual place. The same reason they couldn’t just close the stand-by line and only offer the virtual queue (a system that has been deployed in limited, modified form but otherwise has not been popular). Now is not a good time to be trying to run a virtual queue system, but everyone keeps saying they have to offer one so you get what you asked for, a ”line skipping” system that deals with the situation as it exists.

I know nobody wants to hear, but outside of the current operational constructions, the wider benefit to most people would be not doing the selections in advance and the greater allocation of capacity to stand-by. Planning which rides to do at which hour a month or more in advance was not popular. If FastPass+ was widely known, understood, used and liked there would be no need to physically and preferably visually separate queues at the merge point. Part of the issue with available queue space is because the queues are largely distinct lanes that cannot be adjusted into each other and go to specific points that are separated. When Mission: SPACE was refreshed walls were dropped down into that main room to isolate the stand-by and FastPass+ queues. There’s nothing to them, they don’t create a new queue scene or hold any new sets, they’re just walls and they’re there because enough people didn’t like seeing the FastPass+ users ”cutting” in front of them (to the point it at times resulted in physical altercations) even on an attraction like Mission: SPACE that doesn’t usually generate huge waits. There would be no need for such separation if most people knew and liked the system.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

I went back and re-read communications from Disney from my last trip. In everything that I could find, the nudges regarding FastPass and reservations in general seemed gentle. They tell you FastPass can help maximize your time, not that it's essential if you want to wait less than 2 hours for several of the headlining attractions. I received zero communications about boarding groups, so I would have known nothing about them without doing independent research. The messages seemed to be designed around getting guests to download the MDE app, and if I were disinclined to do so, I wouldn't have any of the additional context contained therein.

Your credit card analogy is faulty because there's a clear cause-effect relationship with implicit responsibility on the part of the card holder. If I borrow money using the card, I will have to pay it back later. When I have to pay it back is a question I know to ask. FP+, by contrast, was billed as a "bonus" of your stay that you were free to utilize if you wanted, not an essential part of your vacation. The negative result of not engaging with the system was not clearly outlined (e.g. that capacity would be severely limited for a number of desirable attractions). Given the fact that FastPass+ represented a fairly unique paradigm within the industry, I wouldn't see it as lazy or disorganized for someone to ignore it, believing it to be irrelevant based on past experiences (even past experiences at Disney World itself).

There's also a not insignificant contingent of people who have real issues with technology and will never interface with MDE because they simply find it too great a hurdle to overcome. I wouldn't consider that disorganization either, just a skills gap that's often generational.

Again, my post was a response to someone falsely claiming that using FP+ effectively required spreadsheets and online calendars. That's blatantly false.

Also, Disney still isn't telling guests, "You better buy Genie+ or you'll be stuck in miserable lines all day." They even offer a free substitute with plain old Genie. Do most of us on this board know that plain old Genie stinks? Sure. Does a family who doesn't spend time on message boards and blogs know that? Probably not. So that's better how?

How does Genie+ solve the problem of people who can't use technology? With FP+, you could book selections on the WDW website, on your phone, or at a kiosk in the park. Now, you have to use your phone, primarily while in the park (obviously the first one at 7 AM isn't done in the park). Yeah, that helps those people who are bad with technology so much!

 

[mikejs78]

Weird. Almost like Disney is intentionally inflating posted standby wait times.

Disney's wait times have been inflated for years.

Planning which rides to do at which hour a month or more in advance was not popular.

And you know this...how?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Also, Disney still isn't telling guests, "You better buy Genie+ or you'll be stuck in miserable lines all day." They even offer a free substitute with plain old Genie. Do most of us on this board know that plain old Genie stinks? Sure. Does a family who doesn't spend time on message boards and blogs know that? Probably not. So that's better how?

Which is it? If people don’t know it means they’re not planning the way everyone is claiming they love to do.

 

[LittleBuford]

the poster claimed planning like we are discussing now has always been part of the experience and cited the unofficial guide’s existence as proof.

planning to visit the parks back in the 80s looks nothing like a Fp+ 180day ADR trip of 2019.

the poster was wrong and ill informed.

it has nothing to do with preferences or 40yr gaps. The assumption was wrong.

That actually isn’t what I said at all, but it’s clear this is an issue where no middle ground is possible for some you, so I’m leaving it there.