Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Casper Gutman]

No different from what @LittleBuford referred to as “some vague mumbling about the common good.”

Not at all. Several posters are trying to define the common good in measurable - debateable - terms.

 

[sedati]

I've said on another thread, I think they need to focus on creating an unavoidable line. Opening them up so they could accommodate a wheelchair/scooter was a great first step. For the headliners they need to take it further and go down he list of reasons one can't handle a long line and devise a themed experience that checks off as many as conceivable.
And yes, every park needs more lines... I mean attractions.

 

[Casper Gutman]

So it boils down to the fact that I don’t feel bad about using the service whereas you do—that’s the difference between your post getting likes and my post getting a moralising reprimand. I shouldn’t be surprised. This is the same forum where those who spend thousands of dollars a year at Disney can feel good about themselves so long as they complain loudly about how awful the experience is, while those of us who continue to openly enjoy the product are characterised as sellouts, shills, and enablers.

You know a lot of posters have voted with their wallets and curtailed or eliminated WDW spending over the last decade, but you dismiss them. And once again you are accusing other posters of referring to you in ways that none of them have.

Perhaps, when posters are discussing how the overall line-skipping system effects the park, it’s not necessary to make your own very specific case (you hate lines but don’t mind huge, tightly-packed crowds, which is kind of confusing) the only valid measurement.

 

[Chi84]

People want shorter queues.

And they get them with line-skipping systems.

 

[sedati]

So it boils down to the fact that I don’t feel bad about using the service whereas you do—that’s the difference between your post getting likes and my post getting a moralising reprimand. I shouldn’t be surprised. This is the same forum where those who spend thousands of dollars a year at Disney can feel good about themselves so long as they complain loudly about how awful the experience is, while those of us who continue to openly enjoy the product are characterised as sellouts, shills, and enablers.

I just explained how I arrived at my own personal conclusion. If others agree, that's great, and for me personally on this forum, rare.

 

[Chi84]

You know a lot of posters have voted with their wallets and curtailed or eliminated WDW spending over the last decade, but you dismiss them. And once again you are accusing other posters of referring to you in ways that none of them have.

Perhaps, when posters are discussing how the overall line-skipping system effects the park, it’s not necessary to make your own very specific case (you hate lines but don’t mind huge, tightly-packed crowds, which is kind of confusing) the only valid measurement.

Why is it that everyone who doesn’t agree with you is an outlier or very specific case? There are many people who find value in line-skipping systems, for any number of reasons. Why dismiss them as abnormal?

 

[LittleBuford]

You know a lot of posters have voted with their wallets and curtailed or eliminated WDW spending over the last decade, but you dismiss them. And once again you are accusing other posters of referring to you in ways that none of them have.

Perhaps, when posters are discussing how the overall line-skipping system effects the park, it’s not necessary to make your own very specific case (you hate lines but don’t mind huge, tightly-packed crowds, which is kind of confusing) the only valid measurement.

I don’t hate lines; I just don’t like waiting in them if I can avoid it. I don’t see what’s confusing about that.

What is confusing, to my mind at least, is being lectured at for using line-skipping services by others who do the same thing. Apparently, my fault lies in saying that I like such services rather than claiming to use them begrudgingly. Never mind that the practical impact—the detriment to the common good, to borrow your framing—is the same either way.

 

[Chi84]

I don’t hate lines; I just don’t like waiting in them if I can avoid it. I don’t see what’s confusing about that.

What is confusing, to my mind at least, is being lectured at for using line-skipping services by others who do the same thing. Apparently, my fault lies in saying that I like such services rather than claiming to use them begrudgingly. Never mind that the end result is exactly the same.

Disney loves both groups equally.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I've said on another thread, I think they need to focus on creating an unavoidable line. Opening them up so they could accommodate a wheelchair/scooter was a great first step. For the headliners they need to take it further and go down he list of reasons one can't handle a long line and devise a themed experience that checks off as many as conceivable.
And yes, every park needs more lines... I mean attractions.

The problem such a goal would run into is that you start ending up with contradicting solutions. Ever wonder why places will have a ramp and stairs instead of just building a nice ramp for everyone to use? The reason is that a ramp that is easy to use with a wheelchair is really long, and for some that length can be more challenging than the stairs. Keeping people engaged in some sort of queue experience would probably involve audio, but more props and scenery combined with more audio can create spaces that are difficult for those with sensory issues. You might try to provide more space for someone who needs room to move around but others tend to fill that space. Really queues just need to be more pleasant. Actual experiences are great but even things like fewer crammed switchbacks would help.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

So it boils down to the fact that I don’t feel bad about using the service whereas you do—that’s the difference between your post getting likes and my post getting a moralising reprimand. I shouldn’t be surprised. This is the same forum where those who spend thousands of dollars a year at Disney can feel good about themselves so long as they complain loudly about how awful the experience is, while those of us who continue to openly enjoy the product are characterised as sellouts, shills, and enablers.

Honestly, I don't begrudge anyone who enjoys the parks even as they currently are. I am, however, worried about how far they'll go in chopping away at the experiences and what happens when the bottom does finally fall out.

 

[Jrb1979]

People don't want it because Disney sat on their haunches and didn't keep up with demand. Any line-skipping system is just a means of hiding the fact that they are woefully below the needed capacity for the attendance of the parks and shuffling wait times between guests. I guarantee you if waits were consistently 20-30 minutes max because there was more than enough to do in the parks, no one would care if there wasn't a line-skipping system.

In theory yes most wouldn't. Even if they had a lot more attractions there would still be many rides that would have long waits. Take Cedar Point, they have over 70 rides in the park, people still buy Fastlane due to the top rides having over an hour waits. While more capacity would help, they need more rides that are people eaters.

 

[LittleBuford]

Honestly, I don't begrudge anyone who enjoys the parks even as they currently are. I am, however, worried about how far they'll go in chopping away at the experiences and what happens when the bottom does finally fall out.

And that’s fair. To be clear, I have no issue with people complaining about the parks, about Genie+, about whatever—have at it. My only gripe is with being told off by individuals who are guilty of exactly the same thing that they’re rebuking me for.

 

[lazyboy97o]

And they get them with line-skipping systems.

Not uniformly and there are a variety of trade offs that if presented as a choice would be typically be deemed less preferable. Most people would chose short waits and doing more.

 

[Chi84]

Not uniformly and there are a variety of trade offs that if presented as a choice would be typically be deemed less preferable. Most people would chose short waits and doing more.

But it doesn’t have to be uniform; just has to work well for them.

 

[lazyboy97o]

And that’s fair. To be clear, I have no issue with people complaining about the parks, about Genie+, about whatever—have at it. My only gripe is with being told off by individuals who are guilty of exactly the same thing that they’re rebuking me for.

But it doesn’t have to be uniform; just has to work well for them.

And this right here is the issue and why there is any sort of rebuking. Taking discussions about the larger systems and trying to push them to personal preference. There are all kinds of schemes and systems that could allow each of us as an individual to wait less and ride more, but that isn’t how a park operates. It can’t function based on our personal whims and preferences. A successful design day serves the most people in the easiest most uniform manner. There were people who had a great time in those early days of Volcano Bay, but that doesn’t mean it was operating well.

 

[LittleBuford]

And this right here is the issue and why there is any sort of rebuking. Taking discussions about the larger systems and trying to push them to personal preference. There are all kinds of schemes and systems that could allow each of us as an individual to wait less and ride more, but that isn’t how a park operates. It can’t function based on our personal whims and preferences. A successful design day serves the most people in the easiest most uniform manner. There were people who had a great time in those early days of Volcano Bay, but that doesn’t mean it was operating well.

Have you never used line-skipping services at Disney?

 

[Chi84]

And this right here is the issue and why there is any sort of rebuking. Taking discussions about the larger systems and trying to push them to personal preference.

This is a forum that helps people plan their trips. How many families do you think are making decisions about their WDW vacation based on “the larger systems” as opposed to their personal preferences? Personal preferences are pretty much everything when it comes to planning.

It’s fine to have discussions about the larger systems - this is an open discussion forum - but it’s ridiculous to rebuke people for considering their personal preferences as paramount.

 

[hopemax]

The common good is pretty easy to define at a theme park, it is getting the average attractions per guest per hour as high (as close to 2) as possible. Ignoring that Disney and most operators offer accommodations for those with difficulties queuing, you seem to repeatedly ignore that adequate capacity would mean targeting an average wait of 20 - 30 minutes per attraction. 20 minutes was the threshold that FastPass used to promise. Yes, it might be more if you only want to hit the few things with the longest lines in a short window, but that is a unique edge case and not how most people visit.

You’re at your local grocery store on a decently busy day. There are lines starting to form at the registers. Which is the better solution for getting more people through checkout as quickly as possible? 1) Opening the additional registers that are closed or 2) Closing a register or two and switching half or more of those that are open to an “Express” lane that you either have to reserve in advance or pay extra to use?

It's timely you mentioned 2 rides per hour. I dug out Buzz Price's "Walt's Revolution" just this afternoon and there is a section about capacity analysis.

"If the on-site design day peak crowd is 10,000 and 30 minute average wait time is tolerable, then 20,000 units per hour (2.0 unites per hour per guest on-site) must be supplied. If a longer 45-minute wait is acceptable, then 13,333 units per hour (1.3 units per guest on-site) are required. In general, ride parks settle for 2.0 units per person. Theme parks, offering longer, more heavily themed and highly produced attractions, try to provide a capacity minimum of 1.3 rides per person per hour. This is a major issue in park development."

Since I was revisiting, he also talks about the need to build for a 90th percentile day. Which is the average of the top 15-top 20 days. 10% of days should be overcrowded, the other 90% of days there should be more capacity than needed.

What he doesn't talk about is 150, 200, 240 minute waits because as a numbers guy, if operations were telling him that was what was happening I am positive he would have some choice words. So who feels like the parks are only overcrowded 10% of the time?

People don't like lines, obviously. But line skips change the demand for the attraction. Many more people also obviously want to ride if they don't have to wait long for it. You can't force 20K people through an attraction that can only serve 15K, and you shouldn't make it worse by introducing a system where now 25K want to do it because now they don't have to wait. Musical chairs, as I say. What they should be doing is thinking differently about how people can physically queue, but while still having to wait it out. They tried it a little with Dumbo, Universal tried it a little with Jimmy Fallon but both don't *need* it.

Switchbacks should die. Standing person to person, one right after the other, should die. But they could experiment with something like the color-coded tickets in Jimmy Fallon where you are in an open room, with seats and activities and when your color is called, you move forward. It could even be app based. Bathrooms could be available, special snacks you could pre-order and consume at a table inside the queue, access to merchandise that can be sent to your room, or picked up when you exit the attraction. Character M&G, musical entertainment, something like the Ollivanders experience, those photo filters, app games, pin trading location. The price, however, is space. Maybe something where instead of it being a restaurant like at DLR's Pirates, or Mexico you are sort of in the attraction, able to experience the atmosphere and music. More attractions would probably have to be vertical, one or even 2 floor for queuing, and more for the attraction. Which will make buildings even more expensive. FOP sort of does this, but it's still switchbacks and lines. They kind off got it on Smuggler's Run. Everyone wants to take their picture in the Falcon but they don't give you enough time before you're boarded into your cabin. Give people more time for stuff like this, make stuff like this. It doesn't have to be every ride, but your signature experiences where the lines will be longest.

 

[Jrb1979]

And this right here is the issue and why there is any sort of rebuking. Taking discussions about the larger systems and trying to push them to personal preference. There are all kinds of schemes and systems that could allow each of us as an individual to wait less and ride more, but that isn’t how a park operates. It can’t function based on our personal whims and preferences. A successful design day serves the most people in the easiest most uniform manner. There were people who had a great time in those early days of Volcano Bay, but that doesn’t mean it was operating well.

The thing is that just all parks have a skip the line system. Disney seems to be the only one that has as many complaints about a skip the line system. IMO Genie+ could have been a success if they went the Universal route. Disney's fault is they continue to see Skip the Line as a system to move guests around.

 

[LittleBuford]

This is a forum that helps people plan their trips. How many families do you think are making decisions about their WDW vacation based on “the larger systems” as opposed to their personal preferences? Personal preferences are pretty much everything when it comes to planning.

It’s fine to have discussions about the larger systems - this is an open discussion forum - but it’s ridiculous to rebuke people for considering their personal preferences as paramount.

Well said. Whenever any of us books a table at a popular restaurant, or reserves good seats at the cinema, or buys tickets for an event with limited capacity, we are depriving someone else of the opportunity that we have just (selfishly?) claimed for ourselves. Our leisure activities are defined by such decision-making. As long as we abide by the rules of whatever establishment is hosting us and treat others with courtesy and respect, there is nothing wrong with availing ourselves of services and products that may enhance our own personal enjoyment.