Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[bubbles1812]

By continuing to give your money to Disney parks, you're telling them that their current trajectory is okay.

Disney is burning through the good will of multiple generation families who are becoming disillusioned. Disney wants to have their cake and eat it too, but it doesn't work like that. You can't play on people's nostalgia and then treat them like a number on a spreadsheet...nor can you market yourself as a "luxury" experience and pack people so tightly into the parks and resorts that the experience is horrible. And they're doing both. I think this is going to come back and bite them HARD.

As I said, I haven’t personally reached that line, so for now, I’ll continue to go. Maybe this bothers you. Maybe you already stopped going. But everyone is different on that threshold, and that’s something we all have to recognize.

I simply haven’t seen anything park attendance numbers wise (the pandemic attendance issues not withstanding) to suggest to me that the trends you feel you see are massively moving the meter. The “Rest of America,” as someone else stated, is still going.

The hard core Disney fans of the likes on the forum are an overall pretty small subset. I have patient families who talk to me all the time about their multiple times a year trips to Disney. So as you anecdotally state they are alienating multigeneration families, I can probably come up with just as many examples of other families that keep going. Not like the price increases have exactly discouraged people from going either…

I don’t love it all, but I’m not going to pretend this is the reality that doesn’t exist.

 

[LittleBuford]

Queues are like taxes in a theme park. Nobody likes them, but everyone should be paying their fare share. Making people think otherwise was the mistake. If LL needs to exist, I'd prefer it be seen as a somewhat less expensive and less exclusive VIP tour than a somewhat more expensive park admission. And going one step further, require a hotel stay or dining package. This is one program I have no problem with Disney being greedy with. Cap the numbers low enough so that standby is not overtly affected and see just how much people will pay.

Whereas I’m happy to pay taxes (because keeping society running is important to me), I have no problem utilising line-skipping services to avoid queuing, and I’m prepared to pay for the privilege if necessary. You’re not the first person here to frame the issue in terms of doing what’s right for the common good, but I honestly struggle to apply that way of thinking to as First World a problem as theme-park wait times.

 

[HauntedPirate]

Not me. And tou couldn’t this whole week at Hollywood. Lines were 60-250 minutes

Like the 240 I saw for Rise for multiple hours today. And FoP was 165 minutes, 65 minutes prior to park close.

 

[FeelsSoGoodToBeBad]

I tried looking to see if this has been discussed recently, but was unable to find anything, so my apologies if it has been asked before....

Given the issues with G+ LL running out so early with crowds increasing as they have this week (and will likely continue to do throughout the holidays) does anyone else think TWDC will be raising the price of Genie+ soon?

 

[Casper Gutman]

Whereas I’m happy to pay taxes (because keeping society running is important to me), I have no problem utilising line-skipping services to avoid queuing, and I’m prepared to pay for the privilege if necessary. You’re not the first person here to frame the issue in terms of doing what’s right for the common good, but I honestly struggle to apply that way of thinking to as First World a problem as theme-park wait times.

Disney is really important to you, which is great. But maybe it’s really important to other people too? I mean, yeah, “first world problem,” but even the common good of a bunch of folks who like theme parks matters to them.

 

[Chi84]

Disney is really important to you, which is great. But maybe it’s really important to other people too? I mean, yeah, “first world problem,” but even the common good of a bunch of folks who like theme parks matters to them.

Who gets to decide what’s the common good? When I posted that FP+ was great for my multigenerational family years ago because my mom (who was in good shape but older) found it difficult to wait (for reasons not limited to standing) in multiple long lines, a poster answered “So what I’m hearing is that she won’t let the rest of you stand in long lines.” Nice. I suppose we could have parked her under a tree somewhere, but FP+ made it possible for us to ride together throughout the day.

Just because a system works best for what some posters have decided is the “majority” doesn’t mean it’s the best system. That’s not limited to theme parks.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Who gets to decide what’s the common good? When I posted that FP+ was great for my multigenerational family years ago because my mom (who was in good shape but older) found it difficult to wait (for reasons not limited to standing) in multiple long lines, a poster answered “So what I’m hearing is that she won’t let the rest of you stand in long lines.” Nice. I suppose we could have parked her under a tree somewhere, but FP+ made it possible for us to ride together throughout the day.

Just because a system works best for what some posters have decided is the “majority” doesn’t mean it’s the best system. That’s not limited to theme parks.

Standby keeps lines shorter for everyone. You have just defined shorter lines as preferable. You’ve defined the common good as something that line-skipping systems make worse.

Also, Disney used to be much better at accommodating older guests, particularly ones in wheelchairs, by letting them avoid the standard line. That’s gone - in large part because of line-skipping systems.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Who gets to decide what’s the common good? When I posted that FP+ was great for my multigenerational family years ago because my mom (who was in good shape but older) found it difficult to wait (for reasons not limited to standing) in multiple long lines, a poster answered “So what I’m hearing is that she won’t let the rest of you stand in long lines.” Nice. I suppose we could have parked her under a tree somewhere, but FP+ made it possible for us to ride together throughout the day.

Just because a system works best for what some posters have decided is the “majority” doesn’t mean it’s the best system. That’s not limited to theme parks.

The common good is pretty easy to define at a theme park, it is getting the average attractions per guest per hour as high (as close to 2) as possible. Ignoring that Disney and most operators offer accommodations for those with difficulties queuing, you seem to repeatedly ignore that adequate capacity would mean targeting an average wait of 20 - 30 minutes per attraction. 20 minutes was the threshold that FastPass used to promise. Yes, it might be more if you only want to hit the few things with the longest lines in a short window, but that is a unique edge case and not how most people visit.

You’re at your local grocery store on a decently busy day. There are lines starting to form at the registers. Which is the better solution for getting more people through checkout as quickly as possible? 1) Opening the additional registers that are closed or 2) Closing a register or two and switching half or more of those that are open to an “Express” lane that you either have to reserve in advance or pay extra to use?

 

[sedati]

Whereas I’m happy to pay taxes (because keeping society running is important to me), I have no problem utilising line-skipping services to avoid queuing, and I’m prepared to pay for the privilege if necessary. You’re not the first person here to frame the issue in terms of doing what’s right for the common good, but I honestly struggle to apply that way of thinking to as First World a problem as theme-park wait times.

I don't begrudge you liking the option, I begrudge that the option was ever optioned. I used it too, but never got over the unease of passing by the others in standby. Also, as someone critical of the very idea, I really paid attention to how it offset everything else and came to the conclusion that at best, it hardly helped, and at worst, it made for a less enjoyable trip overall.

 

[Chi84]

Standby keeps lines shorter for everyone. You have just defined shorter lines as preferable. You’ve defined the common good as something that line-skipping systems make worse.

Also, Disney used to be much better at accommodating older guests, particularly ones in wheelchairs, by letting them avoid the standard line. That’s gone - in large part because of line-skipping systems.

I’ve been to Disney prior to FastPass so I know first hand that lines for the most popular rides were extremely long. The FP+ system worked very well for older guests who were not disabled. I get that you don’t like line skipping systems but you don’t get to decide what’s best for other people.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I’ve been to Disney prior to FastPass so I know first hand that lines for the most popular rides were extremely long. The FP+ system worked very well for older guests who were not disabled. I get that you don’t like line skipping systems but you don’t get to decide what’s best for other people.

Why do you get to decide for everyone? The larger processes have been explained and you keep just going to a very specific edge case that worked for you but doesn’t scale to the experience at large. The system you prefer doesn’t work at scale. It worked for you because you were an outlier.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I’ve been to Disney prior to FastPass so I know first hand that lines for the most popular rides were extremely long. The FP+ system worked very well for older guests who were not disabled. I get that you don’t like line skipping systems but you don’t get to decide what’s best for other people.

You defined the common good. Short lines. I used your definition.

And I also often travel with elderly relatives, one in a wheelchair. I can bring up how much harder things like line-skipping and ADRs have made it for them. But that doesn’t make for a useful discussion. In fact, it’s an appeal to emotion to shut discussion down.

Also, as has been stated, the lines prior to line-skipping were not longer then they are now, not even adjusting for attendance increases, and they could be avoided.

 

[Chi84]

Why do you get to decide for everyone? The larger processes have been explained and you keep just going to a very specific edge case that worked for you but doesn’t scale to the experience at large. The system you prefer doesn’t work at scale. It worked for you because you were an outlier.

I don’t. Disney gets to decide. There must be a whole lot of us outliers because Disney’s not going back to an all standby system. People don’t want it.

 

[Chi84]

In fact, it’s an appeal to emotion to shut discussion down.

No different from what @LittleBuford referred to as “some vague moralistic mumbling about the common good.”

 

[LittleBuford]

Disney is really important to you, which is great. But maybe it’s really important to other people too? I mean, yeah, “first world problem,” but even the common good of a bunch of folks who like theme parks matters to them.

What would you have me do? Not use a line-skipping service out of principle? Use it but feel bad about doing so? Have you never used FastPass in all your visits to WDW?

 

[ImperfectPixie]

I don’t. Disney gets to decide. There must be a whole lot of us outliers because Disney’s not going back to an all standby system. People don’t want it.

People don't want it because Disney sat on their haunches and didn't keep up with demand. Any line-skipping system is just a means of hiding the fact that they are woefully below the needed capacity for the attendance of the parks and shuffling wait times between guests. I guarantee you if waits were consistently 20-30 minutes max because there was more than enough to do in the parks, no one would care if there wasn't a line-skipping system.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I don’t. Disney gets to decide. There must be a whole lot of us outliers because Disney’s not going back to an all standby system. People don’t want it.

No. Disney doesn’t want it. It’s been explained on this board over and over how Disney has sunk billions and billions into crowd-management systems in a mad attempt to avoid building rides. Now they have monetized line-skipping directly. It is one of their core strategies. It has next to nothing to do with guest preference. To the extent that it seems to benefits guests, that benefit is perceived rather then real, with the possible exception of some edge cases like yours.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I don’t. Disney gets to decide. There must be a whole lot of us outliers because Disney’s not going back to an all standby system. People don’t want it.

People want shorter queues. They aren’t standing there on vacation thinking about design day metrics.

No different from what @LittleBuford referred to as “some vague mumbling about the common good.”

Average attractions per guest per hour. The major metric by which park capacity is designed. The higher the number the less people are waiting in queues. It’s not some vague notion, it is an established, defined metric.

 

[flynnibus]

Yes, if a guest booked a longer-than-average stay, they would have an advantage for the days at the outer edge of their 60+LOS. Pretending that the average length of stay is 4.5 days, a guest with a 7 night stay would have an advantage over the current system for days 60+5, 60+6 60+7, and 60+8. They would have no advantage for days 60, 60+1, 60+2, 60+3, and 60+4.

Importantly, a guest with a LOS *shorter* than the median is at a disadvantage under FP+ than under the current system.

"Identical" was a poor choice of words. It's break-even in aggregate. Better for some. Worse for others. Net neutral.

no - because all of those scenarios are still ahead of one day guests… even at 60days. The benefit is everyone who is staying 2 or more days…. Just longer stays have even more advantage. The longer stay is more advantaged over the shorter stay and both are still advantaged over the single day.

consolidating the full day load at one time is worst case scenario. The only saving grace to not be absolute worst case with genie is the onsite eligibility and single hold at a time. Which just means the most popular attractions feel it the worst.

 

[LittleBuford]

I don't begrudge you liking the option, I begrudge that the option was ever optioned. I used it too, but never got over the unease of passing by the others in standby. Also, as someone critical of the very idea, I really paid attention to how it offset everything else and came to the conclusion that at best, it hardly helped, and at worst, it made for a less enjoyable trip overall.

So it boils down to the fact that I don’t feel bad about using the service whereas you do—that’s the difference between your post getting likes and my post getting a moralising reprimand. I shouldn’t be surprised. This is the same forum where those who spend thousands of dollars a year at Disney can feel good about themselves so long as they complain loudly about how awful the experience is, while those of us who continue to openly enjoy the product are characterised as sellouts, shills, and enablers.