Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Casper Gutman]

This is a Disney capacity problem, though. The parks were designed for standby, but not for long waits.

With a bunch of VQs, we get the situation we've seen in recent years where everywhere in the parks are absolutely slammed with people waiting for their next FP slot, completely filling all the shops, seating areas, and walkways. However, the queues generally weren't designed to handle the number of people they're expected to handle now either.

Basically, the parks were designed for both standby only and for manageable wait times for the vast majority of attractions. As attendance has ballooned, they haven't even come close to building enough capacity to make up the difference.

A brand new park (like Epic Universe) could probably be built from the ground up to rely mostly (or entirely) on VQs, but it would probably be a giant sprawl. I don't think it's very likely to happen.

And I don’t really want to eliminate queues, even if that were realistic. The best, like Indy, are the first act of the ride, or the threshold into the world of the ride.

Anyway, long lines aren’t awful if they move.

 

[LittleBuford]

This is a Disney capacity problem, though. The parks were designed for standby, but not for long waits.

My earliest visits to the Disney parks were before any form of FP existed. I remember interminable switchbacks that would take my family ages to work our way through. We went during the British summer holidays, so "slow times" weren't a thing for us. Waits of an hour or more were not uncommon in our experience.

 

[Jrb1979]

This is a Disney capacity problem, though. The parks were designed for standby, but not for long waits.

With a bunch of VQs, we get the situation we've seen in recent years where everywhere in the parks are absolutely slammed with people waiting for their next FP slot, completely filling all the shops, seating areas, and walkways. However, the queues generally weren't designed to handle the number of people they're expected to handle now either.

Basically, the parks were designed for both standby only and for manageable wait times for the vast majority of attractions. As attendance has ballooned, they haven't even come close to building enough capacity to make up the difference.

A brand new park (like Epic Universe) could probably be built from the ground up to rely mostly (or entirely) on VQs, but it would probably be a giant sprawl. I don't think it's very likely to happen.

The capacity issue really an easy fix. Add a B&M hyper coaster to each park. Those things are people eaters. Another thing is stop trying to make every new attraction having to be marketable. Add a bunch of generic flat rides to each park as well.

 

[UNCgolf]

My earliest visits to the Disney parks were before any form of FP existed. I remember interminable switchbacks that would take my family ages to work our way through. We went during the British summer holidays, so "slow times" weren't a thing for us. Waits of an hour or more were not uncommon in our experience.

Waits of an hour were certainly possible for the headliner attractions, but most smaller attractions were walk-ons, and the ones that did have hour long waits are more likely to be 90+ minutes now.

Overall waits were far lower when I went in the 90s than they are now -- attendance is higher now, of course (and then FP+ increased wait times around the park, which was more or less proven recently instead of just being a likely theory*), but if you're suggesting the ideal system is to never have to wait more than 5-10 minutes for anything... well, I agree, but that's just not realistic/feasible for the majority of guests under any system. While some guests can get that, it makes the experience much worse for other guests because it's a zero sum game.

If capacity was actually increased to meet demand (or at least get closer to meeting it) you'd see fewer long waits.

*FP+ was great for me personally because there are a bunch of attractions I don't care about. I could just get the ones I wanted and it didn't matter if others weren't available for rides that didn't really matter to me, e.g. Toy Story Mania.

 

[Chi84]

My earliest visits to the Disney parks were before any form of FP existed. I remember interminable switchbacks that would take my family ages to work our way through. We went during the British summer holidays, so "slow times" weren't a thing for us. Waits of an hour or more were not uncommon in our experience.

People experience things differently and can rarely see past their own experience. That's why long lines are "okay as long as they're moving" to some and "interminable" to others. It's just human nature to want other people to validate your opinions by agreeing with you.

I have absolutely no desire to go back to the days before line-skipping systems. And I seriously doubt WDW is considering such a thing. I was willing to accept that FP+ didn't work for a large number of people and had to change, but the replacement isn't nearly as good and, as I said, I don't believe WDW will ever adopt an all standby system. So I'm left with paying for a system that is not good as FP+. Even so - for me and my family - it's better than going to all standby. Long waits akin to the ones you're describing are what would have me looking for another vacation spot.

 

[LittleBuford]

Waits of an hour were certainly possible for the headliner attractions, but most smaller attractions were walk-ons, and the ones that did have hour long waits are more likely to be 90+ minutes now.

Overall waits were far lower when I went in the 90s than they are now -- attendance is higher now, of course (and then FP+ increased wait times around the park, which was more or less proven recently instead of just being a likely theory*), but if you're suggesting the ideal system is to never have to wait more than 5-10 minutes for anything... well, I agree, but that's just not realistic/feasible for the majority of guests under any system. While some guests can get that, it makes the experience much worse for other guests because it's a zero sum game.

If capacity was actually increased to meet demand (or at least get closer to meeting it) you'd see fewer long waits.

*FP+ was great for me personally because there are a bunch of attractions I don't care about. I could just get the ones I wanted and it didn't matter if others weren't available for rides that didn't really matter to me, e.g. Toy Story Mania.

Disney is never going to go back to a pre-FP model, because many guests simply don't want to wait in long queues. As for capacity, I don't believe it will or even can increase to the point necessary to truly offset today's attendance figures. The reality, then, is that line-skipping systems are here to stay and attendance is always going to outpace capacity. What this means for the long-term future I don't know, but it's clear that Disney have made a mess of things with Genie+.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

Disney is never going to go back to a pre-FP model, because many guests simply don't want to wait in long queues. As for capacity, I don't believe it will or even can increase to the point necessary to truly offset today's attendance figures. The reality, then, is that line-skipping systems are here to stay and attendance is always going to outpace capacity. What this means for the long-term future I don't know, but it's clear that Disney have made a mess of things with Genie+.

We *may* be witnessing the beginnings of a reset with regards to crowds...the company is burning through good will faster than I thought possible.

 

[LittleBuford]

We *may* be witnessing the beginnings of a reset with regards to crowds...the company is burning through good will faster than I thought possible.

The place is packed to the gills even during a pandemic. I see no indication of attendance falling.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

The place is packed to the gills even during a pandemic. I see no indication of attendance falling.

Give it some time. I'm seeing hard-core, long-term Disney fans getting tired of feeling like they're just a wallet.

 

[UNCgolf]

Disney is never going to go back to a pre-FP model, because many guests simply don't want to wait in long queues. As for capacity, I don't believe it will or even can increase to the point necessary to truly offset today's attendance figures. The reality, then, is that line-skipping systems are here to stay and attendance is always going to outpace capacity. What this means for the long-term future I don't know, but it's clear that Disney have made a mess of things with Genie+.

Oh I agree. They're never going to catch up on capacity at this point, especially considering how much it costs/how long it takes them to build anything, and since capacity isn't high enough, lines are simply too long without some sort of system that lets people ride a couple of major attractions without a long wait.

I'm just saying it's a problem of their own making because they didn't really build much of anything for over a decade, and what they did build was often a replacement rather than an addition (and, to make things even worse, a replacement with lower capacity).

I'm not sure what they can do to fix it, but I also agree that Genie+ is a disaster and worse than FP+.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Disney is never going to go back to a pre-FP model, because many guests simply don't want to wait in long queues. As for capacity, I don't believe it will or even can increase to the point necessary to truly offset today's attendance figures. The reality, then, is that line-skipping systems are here to stay and attendance is always going to outpace capacity. What this means for the long-term future I don't know, but it's clear that Disney have made a mess of things with Genie+.

Of course capacity could offset current attendance. I mean… unless you think potential attendance is infinite and will rise in direct relation to capacity regardless of the nature of added capacity or Disney’s promotion of that capacity.

And line-skipping systems make lines longer. If you only ride rides for which you have a line-skipping reservation, then the broken system is broken in a way that benefits you, specifically. But it makes things worse for everyone else.

 

[LittleBuford]

And line-skipping systems make lines longer.

This has been debated endlessly here. Whether it's true or not, the fact remains that a line-skipping system in some form or other is here to stay. The question, then, is how to make the best of it.

 

[flynnibus]

No you wouldn't have. The mad scramble you experienced at 7am today would have still happened at 7am 60 days ago.

Yes, but far more people are lined up at 7am now.. for far less choices (because they have one park, one day) to schedule in the current model.

With FP+ you have a range of dates to pick from when your window opened... Now you have one day window.

 

[fryoj]

Any kind of line skipping mechanism is terrible for park capacity. Letting you wait in more than one line at a time essentially doubles the guest count. The only way I could see it working without that effect would be some sort of system where, if you had a FP, you could only have one at a time, and while holding that you couldn't ride any other rides, including standby, until your FP was used. That way, it's always a 1:1 guest to spot in a line ratio at one time. IDK if the logistics of that would actually be doable, but even if so, you can't monetize it, so it'll never happen.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Yes, but far more people are lined up at 7am now.. for far less choices (because they have one park, one day) to schedule in the current model.

With FP+ you have a range of dates to pick from when your window opened... Now you have one day window.

With FP+, people who checked in before you and had longer stays had access to any given date before you did. An attraction with the popularity of Rise would have "sold out" BEFORE 60 days.

 

[mikejs78]

With FP+, people who checked in before you and had longer stays had access to any given date before you did. An attraction with the popularity of Rise would have "sold out" BEFORE 60 days.

As a resort guest, I never had any trouble getting any attraction. Maybe not on the first day of my trip, but certainly by day 3.

 

[Trauma]

As a resort guest, I never had any trouble getting any attraction. Maybe not on the first day of my trip, but certainly by day 3.

I agree with this never had a problem.

 

[Jeff4272]

I'm old enough to remember almost the entire fan community ******** and moaning that they hated how Disney "forced" them to plan "every second" of their vacations two months in advance.

Just go to the park and get in line. You're under no obligation whatsoever to buy ILL. I hate it too, but it's easy enough to avoid.

Not me. And tou couldn’t this whole week at Hollywood. Lines were 60-250 minutes

 

[Cosmic Commando]

With FP+, people who checked in before you and had longer stays had access to any given date before you did. An attraction with the popularity of Rise would have "sold out" BEFORE 60 days.

I tend to take long trips (for an American), so I benefited from this. In fall 2015 and 2017, 7DMT was "sold out" somewhere around the 63/64 day mark.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I tend to take long trips (for an American), so I benefited from this. In fall 2015 and 2017, 7DMT was "sold out" somewhere around the 63/64 day mark.

It was probably the biggest issue at Flight of Passage because Animal Kingdom has far fewer attractions to spread people to.