Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[hopemax]

Attraction capacity is more like a highway system. In order to adequately serve the number of cars on the road, places would have to add way more lanes than they can pay for, or have physical space for. So when things finally get so bad that they decide to add a new lane, and the 5 years of construction to do it, it looks like nothing has improved. Only now there are 4 full lanes instead of 3 full lanes. But more people are being served! Attractions will always fill their queues up to a certain point because when people see the queue dip below their tolerance point, they get back in line for a re-ride. Until that queue fills back up to the equilibrium point. That doesn't mean the situation hasn't improved with more people getting to do what they want in the process.

 

[LittleBuford]

I feel like your argument is because you still have more people than items, and still have a queue you should have just left it at 25 items, and there is no point in manufacturing any more.

No, that isn't my argument. As I stated in an earlier post, I welcome additions to WDW, even if I personally don't feel there's a lack of things to do or see at the parks as they currently stand (and I realise mine is a minority opinion). The point I'm trying to make is that I don't see how the issue of crowding (as others perceive it) has thus far been helped even by the most substantial of expansions (including the opening of Animal Kingdom, if we go back that far). If I'm mistaken in my recollections or assessment, I'd welcome corrections.

 

[UNCgolf]

I wouldn't take Galaxy's Edge as proof of anything, especially in isolation, because the GE addition coincided with significant price increases. If WDW had added GE, but kept everything else the same, then you'd have a stronger case.

In this context, price increases = everything: hotel prices, park tickets, AP's, parking fees....

Those price increases aren't going to stop, though.

 

[UNCgolf]

I certainly understand the logic and agree with it in principle, but I’m stuck on my observation that no expansion or opening seems to have alleviated the problem of crowding as others here perceive it. I don’t recall a single post in which anyone noted the positive impact of Toy Story Land or Galaxy’s Edge on crowding. I visited the parks shortly before and shortly after these two lands were added, and I can’t say that I noticed a difference (though crowds don’t bother me in the first place, so I’m less likely to notice).

I think it's hard to use DHS as a point for comparison because the park had very little there before TSL and GE were added -- especially for people that aren't interested in shows. I think there were 5 rides total: Great Movie Ride, Tower of Terror, Rock N Roller Coaster, Star Tours, and Toy Story Midway Mania, and a couple of those weren't really kid friendly. I suppose the Backlot Tour was a ride too to bump it to 6, but that was a significantly diminished experience from its height. It was a half day park for most people and thus wasn't really crowded to begin with.

The other problem is that Disney let the parks stagnate long enough while attendance skyrocketed that adding one attraction here or there isn't going to make a big difference. It will help, but if there are 45,000 people in the park and the new attraction is occupying 3500 of them at any given time, it's not going to cause an easily noticeable change. The change will be there, but it will be incremental rather than obvious -- other rides have their wait times decrease by 10 minutes, slightly shorter waits for food, etc.

It's not like you'd suddenly see everything empty because a new attraction opens, but it absolutely helps.

 

[LittleBuford]

I feel the issue is simply that too many people want to go to WDW. Some of the most crowded places I've experienced are cities like New York, Venice, Istanbul, and London (my home town) during tourist season. No-one would claim that these cities are lacking in things to do or see, but once the number of visitors gets beyond a certain point, crowding becomes unavoidable. Venice has gone so far as to put a cap on daily visitors; perhaps Disney needs to do the same, though I can't see that going down well with most people.

 

[dreday3]

I feel the issue is simply that too many people want to go to WDW. Some of the most crowded places I've experienced are cities like New York, Venice, Istanbul, and London (my home town) during tourist season. No-one would claim that these cities are lacking in things to do or see, but once the number of visitors gets beyond a certain point, crowding becomes unavoidable. Venice has gone so far as to put a cap on daily visitors; perhaps Disney needs to do the same, though I can't see that going down well with most people.

They have a cap - the park reservation system.

 

[lazyboy97o]

No, that isn't my argument. As I stated in an earlier post, I welcome additions to WDW, even if I personally don't feel there's a lack of things to do or see at the parks as they currently stand (and I realise mine is a minority opinion). The point I'm trying to make is that I don't see how the issue of crowding (as others perceive it) has thus far been helped even by the most substantial of expansions (including the opening of Animal Kingdom, if we go back that far). If I'm mistaken in my recollections or assessment, I'd welcome corrections.

Because there is still a huge capacity deficit.

 

[LittleBuford]

I think it's hard to use DHS as a point for comparison because the park had very little there before TSL and GE were added -- especially for people that aren't interested in shows. I think there were 5 rides total: Great Movie Ride, Tower of Terror, Rock N Roller Coaster, Star Tours, and Toy Story Midway Mania. I suppose the Backlot Tour was a ride too to bump it to 6, but that was a significantly diminished experience from its height. It was a half day park for most people and thus wasn't really crowded to begin with.

The other problem is that Disney let the parks stagnate long enough while attendance skyrocketed that adding one attraction here or there isn't going to make a big difference. It will help, but if there are 45,000 people in the park and the new attraction is occupying 3500 of them at any given time, it's not going to cause an easily noticeable change. The change will be there, but it will be incremental rather than obvious -- other rides have their wait times decrease by 10 minutes, slightly shorter waits for food, etc.

It's not like you'd suddenly see everything empty because a new attraction opens, but it absolutely helps.

What do you think it would take to really improve the situation?

 

[LittleBuford]

They have a cap - the park reservation system.

Which, as I understand it, will only ever reach capacity on days like Christmas.

 

[LittleBuford]

Because there is still a huge capacity deficit.

If the addition of new lands and even gates hasn't helped, what do you think the solution is?

 

[mikejs78]

that was a significantly diminished experience from its height. It was a half day park for most people and thus wasn't really crowded to begin with.

What rides in particular closed down to make it such a diminished experience?

 

[UNCgolf]

What do you think it would take to really improve the situation?

I'm not sure it's even possible at this point, at least in terms of making a huge dent. Maybe if they opened another Galaxy's Edge/Pandora sized expansion in all four parks -- i.e. multiple attractions, dining, and shops -- but ideally they'd need to open them all at the same time, or at least all within the same 6 month or so period. And that's the kind of thing that actually might cause a long-term increase in attendance, so who knows if that would even make a big difference.

Continuing to add new attractions like Ratatouille and TRON (as opposed to replacing existing ones) will help, though. And I think having new things to experience is always a plus regardless of anything else.

Dining capacity is a separate issue. They have a real problem there because there's simply not enough places for everyone to eat. Some people end up forced to eat a mediocre QS meal for dinner because they have no other options, at least if they don't want to go off-site.

 

[UNCgolf]

What rides in particular closed down to make it such a diminished experience?

I can see how that sentence wasn't clear -- I meant the Backlot Tour was a diminished experience, not DHS as a whole. At the end it wasn't even remotely close to what it was when it first opened in terms of length or overall content.

I do think DHS was a diminished experience too due to the reduced Backlot Tour and the move away from the heavily themed shops etc. but that's a different discussion.

 

[LittleBuford]

I'm not sure it's even possible at this point, at least in terms of making a huge dent. Maybe if they opened another Galaxy's Edge/Pandora sized expansion in all four parks -- i.e. multiple attractions, dining, and shops -- but ideally they'd need to open them all at the same time, or at least all within the same 6 month or so period. And that's the kind of thing that actually might cause a long-term increase in attendance, so who knows if that would even make a big difference.

Continuing to add new attractions like Ratatouille and TRON (as opposed to replacing existing ones) will help, though. And I think having new things to experience is always a plus regardless of anything else.

Dining capacity is a separate issue. They have a real problem there because there's simply not enough places for everyone to eat. Some people end up forced to eat a mediocre QS meal for dinner because they have no other options, at least if they don't want to go off-site.

Thank you for your answer. We may be coming at this from very different angles, but I can't disagree with anything you've said here. And I wholeheartedly endorse the sentence I've bolded.

 

[mikejs78]

So... When will the new MDE drop?

 

[Casper Gutman]

I'm not sure it's even possible at this point, at least in terms of making a huge dent. Maybe if they opened another Galaxy's Edge/Pandora sized expansion in all four parks -- i.e. multiple attractions, dining, and shops -- but ideally they'd need to open them all at the same time, or at least all within the same 6 month or so period. And that's the kind of thing that actually might cause a long-term increase in attendance, so who knows if that would even make a big difference.

Continuing to add new attractions like Ratatouille and TRON (as opposed to replacing existing ones) will help, though. And I think having new things to experience is always a plus regardless of anything else.

Dining capacity is a separate issue. They have a real problem there because there's simply not enough places for everyone to eat. Some people end up forced to eat a mediocre QS meal for dinner because they have no other options, at least if they don't want to go off-site.

I think, in terms of controlling crowds, mega attractions and new lands aren’t the way to go. You need lots and lots of people eaters that will incrementally raise guest satisfaction but not inspire a flood of new tourists. In my ideal resort, you’d add a steady stream of high-capacity FL-style dark rides throughout the parks. Think Little Mermaid minus the elaborate queue but built at a reasonable price. You need a lot of theatre shows of reasonable length - Nemo or an updated Indy would be models. You need streetmosphere and pop-up shows that can hold audiences - think the Jammitors. Shops need to be large, heavily themed, and boast very unique merchandise so they can act as attractions in there own right - HP-style, but larger. And you need seating areas and relaxing places to remove yourself from the crowd. In other words, you need to do the exact opposite of everything WDW has been doing.

 

[hopemax]

Look at an old Ticket book for Magic Kingdom from the late 70's. Attendance was 12-13 million. There were 8-9 E-Tickets (after BTMRR), 9 D-Tickets, 5 each of A, B, C. If the parks don't look something like that, the parks are going to be operationally out of balance. If attendance of the park is 20 million and not 12-13 then you are going to need more than 1980. As much as some people say, the parks need more C-tickets, IMO they need more Es and Ds, which are expensive, so it will never happen. Doesn't mean it's still not a necessity if WDW wants these attendance levels.

Second, add up attraction time. This is DHS's bigger problem than balance of ride types. People get "hungry" for more stuff to do when attractions are only 3 minutes long. Toy Story Land has only 11 minutes of actual ride time. You can't solve crowding issues when you dump people back out that fast. GMR lasted 22 minutes. MMRR is only 5 minutes. These choices by Disney have real effects on our guest experience.

Third, individual attraction capacity. E & Ds can't be 1000 people per hour. Don't use your biggest animated success in years and put it on a ride system that only can handle 1000 people per hour. You will intentionally create a crowd. If you have a successful IP, and a high capacity ride system, don't skimp on the experience. Mermaid should have been a template, but the attraction is simply, not satisfying so it isn't chosen except on super busy days.

IMO, these should be obvious things to why WDW's projects have not eliminated crowding, they can't possibly have been designed with the intent to eliminate crowds (instead Disney is doing more redistribution to under utilized areas. This works to address crowds if attendance is steady. It doesn't address crowding, if attendance is increasing independently, like I think it is for demographic and economic reasons) . If anything the throughput is so low vs expected guest demand, I am tempted to believe that they are intentionally creating new crowding, and pinch points so it looks like something is more successful than it would be otherwise. Because that's the psychological trick... if people don't see a crowd, then it must not be good. People don't reward efficient, even though it's what everyone wants! To get something done as fast as possible. People want inefficient to generate a crowding situation so they know what is good, but a way for them to breeze by that inefficient situation.

 

[Patcheslee]

I would caution against reporting foreign citizens to airport security unless you actually have a security or safety concern (which you may have, though it wasn’t clear from your post).

The guys story or expectations of what he planned just seemed off. He wanted to go to Disney World yet when asked which park or hotel he just said "Disney World". It was like he just decided to hop on the plane the same day with this kid and come pop in for a visit. Tried to explain how to get a car, but he wanted me to get a cab for him. No hotel anywhere to stay at. Honestly what parent takes their kid on an international flight without at least knowing how to leave the dang airport? His daughter seemed either very shy or nervous being there. It could have very well have been this guy really had a pipedream version of visiting, but it was enough for me to be concerned about him running around Orlando with a kid and no firm plans.

 

[LittleBuford]

The guys story or expectations of what he planned just seemed off. He wanted to go to Disney World yet when asked which park or hotel he just said "Disney World". It was like he just decided to hop on the plane the same day with this kid and come pop in for a visit. Tried to explain how to get a car, but he wanted me to get a cab for him. No hotel anywhere to stay at. Honestly what parent takes their kid on an international flight without at least knowing how to leave the dang airport? His daughter seemed either very shy or nervous being there. It could have very well have been this guy really had a pipedream version of visiting, but it was enough for me to be concerned about him running around Orlando with a kid and no firm plans.

Fair enough. Based on what you describe, I too would have been concerned for the child. I hope the situation was resolved without too much fuss.

 

[Hakunamatata]

Interesting observation at MK today and Studios yesterday. Im not certain what the variance between posted and actual wait tines were pre pandemic but the last two days I’ve noticed wait times are half what is being posted. I know previously Disney would over state wait times but didnt think it was that drastic. I timed a number of waits so Im not guesstimating. Could Disney be doing this to enhance the perceived value of Genie+?