Let's talk baseball

[dopey]

The Cubs. :ROFLOL: :lol: :sohappy: :xmas:

 

[dopey]

Gee, who would've thought the Cubs would make Lou Piniella implode? :lol:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...niella,1,1636372.story?coll=chi-sportstop-hed

 

[George]

Over/Under 30 times Sweet Lou gets tossed from a game this year... I'll take the over:lol:

Actually, if you remove the 0 you'd have a very realisitic bet! :lol:

So...I'm not gonna bring up this weekend. I don't believe in trash talking after the fact.

A few questions - Is Junior the only home run hitter from this generation who is gonna get voted in? Is he going to get voted in the hall of fame mostly because he was always skinny? Is that proof of lack of steroid use? Steroids help you recover from injury whether you lift weights or not. What about pitchers who seemingly pitched for ever. Do we know what Ryan, Clemens and Maddux were doing? Even though pitchers seem to test positive at a higher clip since testing started they escape suspicion. What about Gwynn and Ripken. They were hardly ever injured. You can't be sure they didn't dope. Will those who doped but didn't lift weights get a free pass? You really open a Pandora's box if you start excluding people from the Hall based on hearsay and appearance. What does everyone think?

 

[GenerationX]

Yes, we won't be speaking of the spanking my good guys from the South Side took this weekend. Ugh. I suspect a few guys in the last year of their contracts will be heading out of town soon.

As for the Hall of Fame issue:
1. Pitchers - In. Pitchers haven't been throwing harder than in the past. There are no 105-110 mph fastballs. As for individuals, Ryan's off season training program is legendary (throwing hard every day). Clemens has always had a rocket, and Maddux is a pure finesse pitcher.
2. Skinny Guys - In. Griffey Jr. is in, for sure. Why would a player risk getting caught in a random test just to heal faster? Anyone willing to take that risk is going to bulk up.
3. Old Guys - In. Anyone who put up the majority of their numbers before 1990 is in. Ripken and Gwynn are already in (as of this year) and won't be kicked out.
4. Bulky, Dopey Guys - Out. Clearly, the admitted/caught guys (Canseco, Palmeiro, Giambi) are out. In addition, I bet that as careers complete, the investigations will get more intense. The only question will be whether the evidence will be publicized in time to lock out a few likely cheaters. McGwire, out. Bonds, out. Sosa, out. With the last one, you've got the strong circumstantial evidence of instant muscles and the cork incident.

 

[dandaman]

I'm currently watching the only ball game so far this reason, and probably for the rest. :lol: Jays/Twins.

 

[gotribe07]

Yes, we won't be speaking of the spanking my good guys from the South Side took this weekend. Ugh. I suspect a few guys in the last year of their contracts will be heading out of town soon.

As for the Hall of Fame issue:
1. Pitchers - In. Pitchers haven't been throwing harder than in the past. There are no 105-110 mph fastballs. As for individuals, Ryan's off season training program is legendary (throwing hard every day). Clemens has always had a rocket, and Maddux is a pure finesse pitcher.
2. Skinny Guys - In. Griffey Jr. is in, for sure. Why would a player risk getting caught in a random test just to heal faster? Anyone willing to take that risk is going to bulk up.
3. Old Guys - In. Anyone who put up the majority of their numbers before 1990 is in. Ripken and Gwynn are already in (as of this year) and won't be kicked out.
4. Bulky, Dopey Guys - Out. Clearly, the admitted/caught guys (Canseco, Palmeiro, Giambi) are out. In addition, I bet that as careers complete, the investigations will get more intense. The only question will be whether the evidence will be publicized in time to lock out a few likely cheaters. McGwire, out. Bonds, out. Sosa, out. With the last one, you've got the strong circumstantial evidence of instant muscles and the cork incident.

Ok first of all there was never a pitcher who was clocked above 103 mph. So if you're waiting for a pitcher who throws 105-110 you're going to be wating a pretty long time.

As for your take on who's in and out I COMPLETELY agree. The "steriod junkies" are for sure not heading to Cooperstown and will go down just like Pete Rose did... great numbers but it's what they did off the field that influenced the voters. And for Sosa and Palmero... lying on Capital Hill doesn't help AT ALL

 

[GenerationX]

Ok first of all there was never a pitcher who was clocked above 103 mph. So if you're waiting for a pitcher who throws 105-110 you're going to be wating a pretty long time.

As for your take on who's in and out I COMPLETELY agree. The "steriod junkies" are for sure not heading to Cooperstown and will go down just like Pete Rose did... great numbers but it's what they did off the field that influenced the voters. And for Sosa and Palmero... lying on Capital Hill doesn't help AT ALL

Agreed.

My point about the 105-110 mph fastball was that if we'd actually seen one, I would suspect steroids. In reality, no one's throwing it any faster now than Nolan Ryan or J.R. Richard in their prime.

 

[dopey]

Bulky, Dopey Guys.

Who you calling bulky?!

 

[SpongeScott]

Bonds makes it because he had the numbers before he ever starting taking whatever. Sosa and Big Mac? No.

 

[George]

See more thoughts below.

Yes, we won't be speaking of the spanking my good guys from the South Side took this weekend. Ugh. I suspect a few guys in the last year of their contracts will be heading out of town soon.

As for the Hall of Fame issue:
1. Pitchers - In. Pitchers haven't been throwing harder than in the past. There are no 105-110 mph fastballs. As for individuals, Ryan's off season training program is legendary (throwing hard every day). Clemens has always had a rocket, and Maddux is a pure finesse pitcher.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how steroids help pitchers. See below.

2. Skinny Guys - In. Griffey Jr. is in, for sure. Why would a player risk getting caught in a random test just to heal faster? Anyone willing to take that risk is going to bulk up.

Ummm...there was no risk. There was not testing. You heal a LOT faster when you use steroids. It's a Huuuge advantage. In fact, Big Mac had the best HR/AB ratio in MLB history before he got big. But he was injured a lot. Steroids may have helped him with this far more with injury than with power.


3. Old Guys - In. Anyone who put up the majority of their numbers before 1990 is in. Ripken and Gwynn are already in (as of this year) and won't be kicked out.

Of course, they won't be kicked out. You don't think people were doping before the 90's? I had a friend who took steriods (albeit for another purpose than baseball throughout the 80's).

4. Bulky, Dopey Guys - Out. Clearly, the admitted/caught guys (Canseco, Palmeiro, Giambi) are out. In addition, I bet that as careers complete, the investigations will get more intense. The only question will be whether the evidence will be publicized in time to lock out a few likely cheaters. McGwire, out. Bonds, out. Sosa, out. With the last one, you've got the strong circumstantial evidence of instant muscles and the cork incident.

Is the cork incident different from sandpaper, thumbtacks, etc. Why do pitchers get a free pass on cheating?

BTW, the majority of the players who have tested positive since testing started are pitchers. The advantage of steriods to a pitcher are not 105 MPH fastballs, but faster recovery time and increased stamina. These are huuuge advantages. I don't think the general public has a good understanding of how steroids work. I'm willing to bet that a ton of players, including many who will get inducted into the hall doped for substantial portions of their career. The advantages, when there is no testing, far outweigh the disadvantages.

 

[George]

BTW, here is a list of major league players who have tested positive for steroids -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_suspended_for_steroids

By my count, 9 out of 16 are pitchers and not a lot of big guys on the list. The better players probably aren't clean, but can afford drugs that can't be detected or are just using HGH which is still not tested for due to the high probability of a false positive (and the fact that if you could get access to a lab where they do testing I bet EVERYONE has elevated levels of HGH).

 

[SpongeScott]

BTW, here is a list of major league players who have tested positive for steroids -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_suspended_for_steroids

By my count, 9 out of 16 are pitchers and not a lot of big guys on the list. The better players probably aren't clean, but can afford drugs that can't be detected or are just using HGH which is still not tested for due to the high probability of a false positive (and the fact that if you could get access to a lab where they do testing I bet EVERYONE has elevated levels of HGH).

Good points in both of your two previous posts. HGH is not illegal in MLB. There is no test for HGH. Bonds, Sosa, Big Mac, Little Mac, whoever can take all the HGH they want and be within the rules of baseball. And as for steroids, there was no policy against it until a few years ago. How can MLB go back and punish someone for a policy that didn't exist? MLB is on a witch hunt against Barry Bonds. If they go after and get Barry, they've got the whole rest of the league to get to. He's not the only one.

 

[GenerationX]

More comments:

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how steroids help pitchers. See below.
I understand that steroids help pitchers heal. My point is that "healing faster" is not something that stands out like a 105 mph fastball would. Pitchers are safe (despite their guilt), simply because the primary stat that would speak to steroids is fewer days on the DL. That's not going to cause an outcry.


...there was no risk. There was not testing. You heal a LOT faster when you use steroids. It's a Huuuge advantage. In fact, Big Mac had the best HR/AB ratio in MLB history before he got big. But he was injured a lot. Steroids may have helped him with this far more with injury than with power.
Agreed that steroids help guys stay off the DL, but that fact alone does not cause much uproar. Other sports had already banned the substances, so I believe players knew there was some risk and consequences if caught.


Of course, they won't be kicked out. You don't think people were doping before the 90's? I had a friend who took steriods (albeit for another purpose than baseball throughout the 80's).
I believe guys were doping before the 90's, but it became really trendy in the 90's. My suspicion is that guys who put up numbers before 1990 will get a "free pass" on any investigation just because it wasn't as prevalent then.


Is the cork incident different from sandpaper, thumbtacks, etc. Why do pitchers get a free pass on cheating?
I agree with your point completely. Pitchers should not get away with sandpaper, grease, thumbtacks, etc. and still be Hall eligible.


BTW, the majority of the players who have tested positive since testing started are pitchers. The advantage of steriods to a pitcher are not 105 MPH fastballs, but faster recovery time and increased stamina. These are huuuge advantages. I don't think the general public has a good understanding of how steroids work. I'm willing to bet that a ton of players, including many who will get inducted into the hall doped for substantial portions of their career. The advantages, when there is no testing, far outweigh the disadvantages.
You may be right that a bunch of cheaters have made/will make the Hall. That's too bad. However, I still think baseball will go after the bulky guys with the big HR numbers first.

 

[Fievel]

Brewers fan here...born and raised in WI.

Lived in Minnesota for 4 years, so they are my american league favorites.

Brew Crew's offense really hitting well so far - they've avoided the dreaded "swoon in june". I'm not overly optimistic, even with a 7.5 game lead in the central. It's a long season.

 

[George]

More comments:

Our discussion about this has been far too reasoned and intelligent. None of us are eligible for a sports talk show.

Brewers fan here...born and raised in WI.

Lived in Minnesota for 4 years, so they are my american league favorites.

Brew Crew's offense really hitting well so far - they've avoided the dreaded "swoon in june". I'm not overly optimistic, even with a 7.5 game lead in the central. It's a long season.

Welcome to what is soon to become the most popular thread on magic. :lookaroun

Apparently, I should've come up with some kind of way to safeguard against White Sox, Cardinals, and Brewers fans.

Well, the Cubbies did take two out of three against the Crew, but I really think they needed a sweep to really heat up the race at this juncture. It's a long season, I haven't given up hope, but the Brewers have a really impressive lineup.

 

[George]

Good points in both of your two previous posts. HGH is not illegal in MLB. There is no test for HGH. Bonds, Sosa, Big Mac, Little Mac, whoever can take all the HGH they want and be within the rules of baseball. And as for steroids, there was no policy against it until a few years ago. How can MLB go back and punish someone for a policy that didn't exist? MLB is on a witch hunt against Barry Bonds. If they go after and get Barry, they've got the whole rest of the league to get to. He's not the only one.

One small point - there is a test for growth hormone. It's just not considered reliable enough by our North American professional sports leagues. It is considered good enough by the Olympics. I think some outfit called the WDA (World Doping Association) administers it.

I agree wholeheartedly about the Bonds point and about punishing someone for a policy that didn't exist. For a long time I didn't buy into the Bonds witch hunt angle, but it really is the the only thing that explains the complete one-sided way in which the sports media as a whole portrays this. Why isn't Bud Selig held somewhat accountable? He watched the very nature of the game change and almost certainly knew something was up.

Let me tell you something no one talks about. If you gave a good analytical chemist an unknown, and he analyzed it he/she may be sure what they are looking at is a "steroid." In many cases, they can even tell you the chemical structure of the molecule. However, if it is new, they can't officially call someone on it until a good organic chemist synthesizes the specific molecule in question. Now, they can run tests with that molecule and say "AHA! that person is taking steroid X." However, by the time that process is complete the folks who are making steroids have come up with new molecules that there aren't specific analyses for. Also, you can get a real good idea if someone is cheating by looking at secondary indicators in the sample - say hormone or creatinine levels. The problem is none of this would be considered conclusive. I bet if you could have a conversation with the men and women who routinely analyze these samples they'd tell you that a lot of people are cheating.

 

[SpongeScott]

And on another Barry note--he's STARTING in the All-Star game. That means he had to have been voted in by the fans as a starter. Either he's not as hated as everyone thinks he is, or a lot of people don't think he's "cheating". Or don't care. For his stats this year, for what he's doing with the HR chase, with the game being in San Francisco, I'm glad he's on the team.

 

[Number_6]

And on another Barry note--he's STARTING in the All-Star game. That means he had to have been voted in by the fans as a starter. Either he's not as hated as everyone thinks he is, or a lot of people don't think he's "cheating". Or don't care. For his stats this year, for what he's doing with the HR chase, with the game being in San Francisco, I'm glad he's on the team.

Remember though, with the All-Star Game, you aren't limited to one vote only, and they are only going by valid e-mail addresses if you vote online. A small enterprising group could just as easily create thousands of extra votes to help push him ahead. Not that that's what happened, but the number of votes do not always reflect the number of individual voters.

 

[Number_6]

Barry Bonds starting the All-Star Game?

"Head! Move! Now! Look at the size of his noggin! It's enormous! It's like Sputnik!"

 

[George]

Thought I'd bump this incredibly popular thread. :lookaroun

My anti-Cardinals dance doesn't seem to be working so well (although my anti-Brewers bench press/jumping jacks routine does seem to have some success).

At least August is coming to a close and the Cubbies have actual playoff prospects. Can't complain.

Since the Cubs were sold out for the rest of the year, I'm going to see my second game in Chicago this year, but it'll be in the Cell. I'll be at the Saturday game for the mid-September series with the Angels. It'll be my first time at the Cell. Any advice from people who have been before?