Let's talk baseball

[GenerationX]

Mitchell Report due out tomorrow. My only wish is that it contains some hard evidence against selfish slugger Sammy "Cork and Clear" Sosa. I generally hate Cubs players, but I hated him when he was with the Sox - always swinging for the fences, always bypassing the cutoff man to attempt an impossible play. Rumors at the time were that Fisk didn't like him, which was yet another reason not to like Sosa.

 

[George]

Mitchell Report due out tomorrow. My only wish is that it contains some hard evidence against selfish slugger Sammy "Cork and Clear" Sosa. I generally hate Cubs players, but I hated him when he was with the Sox - always swinging for the fences, always bypassing the cutoff man to attempt an impossible play. Rumors at the time were that Fisk didn't like him, which was yet another reason not to like Sosa.

That drove me crazy for years! I don't know if I have one clear memory of Sammy hitting the cutoff man.

 

[Nemo14]

So far all I've heard is Clemens and Pettitte named so far....

 

[Wilt Dasney]

The real losers in this report? I'd say teams like the Royals and Devil Rays.

If Mitchell is right that all 30 teams have had players involved, what does it say about them that even when they cheat, they still suck? :lookaroun

(Is this another one of those payroll disparity issues, where they can't afford as many steroid suppliers as the Yankees and Red Sox?)

 

[Nemo14]

The real losers in this report? I'd say teams like the Royals and Devil Rays.

If Mitchell is right that all 30 teams have had players involved, what does it say about them that even when they cheat, they still suck? :lookaroun

(Is this another one of those payroll disparity issues, where they can't afford as many steroid suppliers as the Yankees and Red Sox?)

Good point - I say we give them all raises!

 

[Number_6]

The full list, courtesy of Yahoo:

PREVIOUSLY LINKED

Manny Alexander
Rick Ankiel
David Bell
Marvin Benard
Barry Bonds
Ricky Bones
Paul Byrd
Ken Caminiti
Jose Canseco
Paxton Crawford
Lenny Dykstra
Bobby Estalella
Ryan Franklin
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Jay Gibbons
Troy Glaus
Juan Gonzalez
Jason Grimsley
Jose Guillen
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Darren Holmes
Ryan Jorgensen
Wally Joyner
Gary Matthews Jr.
Rafael Palmeiro
John Rocker
Benito Santiago
Scott Schoeneweis
David Segui
Gary Sheffield
Derrick Turnbow
Randy Velarde
Matt Williams

NEW NAMES

Chad Allen
Mike Bell
Gary Bennett
Larry Bigbie
Kevin Brown
Alex Cabrera
Mark Carreon
Jason Christiansen
Howie Clark
Roger Clemens
Jack Cust
Brendan Donnelly
Chris Donnels
Matt Franco
Eric Gagne
Matt Herges
Phil Hiatt
Glenallen Hill
Todd Hundley
Mike Judd
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Tim Laker
Mike Lansing
Paul Lo Duca
Nook Logan
Josias Manzanillo
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Bart Miadich
Hal Morris
Daniel Naulty
Denny Neagle
Jim Parque
Luis Perez
Andy Pettitte
Adam Piatt
Todd Pratt
Stephen Randolph
Adam Riggs
Armando Rios
Brian Roberts
F.P. Santangelo
Mike Stanton
Ricky Stone
Miguel Tejada
Ismael Valdez
Mo Vaughn
Ron Villone
Fernando Vina
Rondell White
Jeff Williams
Todd Williams
Steve Woodard
Kevin Young
Gregg Zaun

 

[George]

A few questions - Is Junior the only home run hitter from this generation who is gonna get voted in? Is he going to get voted in the hall of fame mostly because he was always skinny? Is that proof of lack of steroid use? Steroids help you recover from injury whether you lift weights or not. What about pitchers who seemingly pitched for ever. Do we know what Ryan, Clemens and Maddux were doing? Even though pitchers seem to test positive at a higher clip since testing started they escape suspicion. What about Gwynn and Ripken. They were hardly ever injured. You can't be sure they didn't dope. Will those who doped but didn't lift weights get a free pass? You really open a Pandora's box if you start excluding people from the Hall based on hearsay and appearance. What does everyone think?

I'm quoting myself from months and months ago. I've always been suspicious of Nolan Ryan too and I still am. Note how pitchers who we have always had reason to be suspicious of escaped vitriol and criticism. Also, note all evidence seems to point to performance being enhanced, not just extended -

From cnnsi.com-

"Easy: Roger Clemens. You might as well call it the Clemens Report. His personal trainer, Brian McNamee, gave him up as a serial steroid and HGH user. McNamee told George Mitchell that Clemens began using steroids while playing for Toronto in 1998. (Does that year sound familiar?) McNamee said he injected the steroids into Clemens' buttocks after the Jays returned home from a trip to Florida. Up to that point Clemens was 6-6 with a 3.27 ERA. After that he was literally unbeatable: 14-0 with a 2.29 ERA. Think steroids work? McNamee told Mitchell Clemens also used steroids and HGH in 2000 and 2001."

I think a certain class of steroid abusers (home run hitters) have been thrown under the bus by baseball fans while everyone else has gotten off scott free. Sure they looked bad when they testified to Congress, but no one else was even called before Congress. Think Clemens would have admitted to cheating if he had been up there? The guys who keep the sluggers from hitting home runs aren't very clean at all and deserve as much criticism and heat from the media.

 

[SpongeScott]

What this should do is make the baseball writers rethink HoF criteria. For example, 500 HR's is the magic number to getting a ticket to the Hall. Fred McGriff and Andre Dawson fall just short of this (493 and 487, I believe). If 500 became the magic number because of the Steroid Era and these guys were clean, then they have to be relooked. Perhaps their accomplishments are greater than Bonds...perhaps. The fallout from this could be some guys never making the Hall, while some who thought their chances had about run dry, will get in.

I personally believe Dawson and McGriff belong, regardless. I also believe Bonds and Clemens belong, because even with the roids, they had HoF numbers.

 

[George]

What this should do is make the baseball writers rethink HoF criteria. For example, 500 HR's is the magic number to getting a ticket to the Hall. Fred McGriff and Andre Dawson fall just short of this (493 and 487, I believe). If 500 became the magic number because of the Steroid Era and these guys were clean, then they have to be relooked. Perhaps their accomplishments are greater than Bonds...perhaps. The fallout from this could be some guys never making the Hall, while some who thought their chances had about run dry, will get in.

I personally believe Dawson and McGriff belong, regardless. I also believe Bonds and Clemens belong, because even with the roids, they had HoF numbers.

I agree with this. In fact, if you look at the list we now have (which I'm sure is far from being complete) I think that steroids have shown the capacity to turn star players into even brighter luminaries. If you're kind of mediocre all you're doing is sticking a needle in your buttocks.

 

[GenerationX]

I remember you insisting that Pitchers should be getting some heat for steroid use, ASJHLJ, and I agree this report will make the average fan understand how widespread the problem was. Fans may even understand how steroids help Pitchers.

I'll still disagree with you about Nolan Ryan, though, because his offseason training program is legendary.

As for the HoF question, I think this report damages everyone on the list. McGwire was the first big name to go on the ballot as a known cheater, and he garnered a paltry 23.5% of the vote. Maybe, voters for the HoF will look at the players' stats before they were known to have taken steroids. By this standard, Bonds and Clemens could get into the Hall because by the time they got around to taking steroids, they already had Hall-worthy stats. However, some voters will still vote against them out of principle.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

I think if you've got the numbers, you should get in. Steroids might help you pad your record, but they're not going to turn a guy like me into Hank Aaron. It still takes natural ability and in the end, the player has to throw/hit the ball, not the juice.

I know that's a tad simplified, but I think it makes more sense than trying to pick and choose whose numbers you take seriously and whose you pin an asterisk to.

 

[WDWFREAK53]

This takes the cake :lol:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7588092?MSNHPHCP&GT1=10734

 

[SpongeScott]

This takes the cake :lol:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7588092?MSNHPHCP&GT1=10734

:ROFLOL: